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Is Final Fantasy shooting for irrelevance?
- Thread starter U5230
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badcrumble
Member
I think you're misreading things. Spirits Within is a gloriously innocent and shitty example of somebody having no idea what the market wants or is looking for and believing in their product enough not to care. The pattern Squeenix seems to be showing with the franchise right now is the opposite - cynically development after marketing, in an attempt to bridge increasingly divergent markets/demographs, instead of letting the authors make what they care about and expecting that its quality will shine through.TheFLYINGManga_Ka said:
As for Matsuno, he's awesome and I love the guy, but he's hardly the only talent at Square-Enix. Kitase has made some of my favorite games ever, and I expect to like XIII a lot despite objecting to some of what it's doing, and I love Nomura too. But I think it's clear that the financial/marketing side of things is increasingly getting in the way of auteurism, and while it may be facile to do so, I'm leaning toward blaming Yoichi Wada for that.
PetriP-TNT
Member
Don't know/care about irrelevancy, I'm going to buy it day 1.
FFVII wowed the world, love it or hate it nowadays. And since then I think the series has been living off the goodwill established by that game. But they are not expanding their fanbase, and attrition is shrinking their existing fanbase.
Himuro is also correct in saying that the game is aimed at teenagers, but teenagers aren't the ones still playing it in the west. Older gamers are, and it doesn't have the same appeal that FFVII had when they were 15.
GAF may not admit it, but FFXIV is probably more important to SE than FFXIII.
Edit. I also think FFXII is the wrong direction to take the next FF. It plays too much like a MMO but without the MMO community.
Himuro is also correct in saying that the game is aimed at teenagers, but teenagers aren't the ones still playing it in the west. Older gamers are, and it doesn't have the same appeal that FFVII had when they were 15.
GAF may not admit it, but FFXIV is probably more important to SE than FFXIII.
Edit. I also think FFXII is the wrong direction to take the next FF. It plays too much like a MMO but without the MMO community.
TheFLYINGManga_Ka
Member
I think the problem with the commercial is the target audience.djtiesto said:
I don't think the average gamer or teens will get excited over a commercial showing passive turn-based fighting and Leona Lewis singing in the background.
And this was first aired on ESPN during the All-Star Celebrity game! :lol
Crash Station
Member
Vinci said:
Yeah, a new FFT would be great. I'd be fine with someone other than Matsuno writing the scenario but he seemed like the only person at Square that actually knew how to direct an SRPG. Though I would imagine he wouldn't be as good at it now as he was back then :/
Steve Youngblood
Member
But, as has been pointed out again and again and again, it's not a binary decision wherein you either create a giant sandbox with no direction whatsoever, OR you create a completely linear A -> B -> C one.Seda said:
dionysus said:
This, this, a thousand times this. FF11 makes about as much for them yearly on subs alone as FF13 made in Japan, or enough to pay for a SW-caliber bomb once a year. And FF14 is that without the platform, design, and staggered-launch handicaps. They've got a loooooot of leeway to play around looking for the new hit formula.
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
i like ito.
HappyBivouac
Member
I didn't read every post in the thread, but I love all the people who like to pretend FFXI and XIV don't exist.
Rahxephon91
Banned
Yes GAF knows what teenagers and the masses are into these days.
And where is this bad press other then 1 shitty magazine giving it a 70?
And where is this bad press other then 1 shitty magazine giving it a 70?
HappyBivouac
Member
Vinci said:
Yep. You can tell he's a guy who really cares about his craft.
Tanaka did game design on FF1-3, went on to produce and design Secret of Mana/SD3, a few other classics, and then FFXI. This is a dude who knows how to fucking make games.
Here's where I got the four million figure from:
http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2009/12/17/news-japanese-console-numbers-revealed.aspx
But according to these officially sourced stats, total PS3 sales in Japan are up to 4,659,511, and FFXIII sold 1,844,000 copies before it dropped out of the top 10 where actual figures are released.
http://www.eurogamer.net/forum_thread_posts.php?thread_id=172493
So the ratio is only 39.6%. Still seems pretty good to me.
http://gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2009/12/17/news-japanese-console-numbers-revealed.aspx
But according to these officially sourced stats, total PS3 sales in Japan are up to 4,659,511, and FFXIII sold 1,844,000 copies before it dropped out of the top 10 where actual figures are released.
http://www.eurogamer.net/forum_thread_posts.php?thread_id=172493
So the ratio is only 39.6%. Still seems pretty good to me.
Rahxephon91
Banned
No all there have been are some interviews. If asking a developer why you chose to do something over something else counts as bad press to you then god help us all.Himuro said:
Oh yeah wired posted something negative but that was basically a blog post and well the internet hates everything.
I think you are kind exaggerating this.
I mean now you guys are saying these day's FF won't appeal to teenagers? Really? How the fuck does gaf know what appeals to anyone. I really doubt gaf'sn taste fall in line with the average person. Nor do I think the generation that likes to wear tight ass jeans and loves some vampaires will have a problem with the way FFXIII looks.
TommyTomsten
Banned
After the FF12 shitfest.... yeah, I really lost faith
Alex
Member
Not as much, although given the focus shift to more X-2 like and the format split it's not surprising. I'm not a sales guy, but I'm kind of curious to see how this does in the US and EU with the multiplat gig.
Either way, these games always get this at first. These games inspire a lot of arguments and slander, especially the newer ones. Till they age a few years that is, and nostalgia sinks down to them.
In the end, the Tanka online FF's are the main series to me now, so I don't really mind too much either way. Online or not they are best in series from everything from gameplay to narrative. All I want is for 14 to clean up the rubble keeping the brilliant elements of 11 down, but I think that's an easy prediction given the time periods of release.
Himuro said:
Well, it sure isn't irrelevant either. It was the second highest selling 3rd party game in Japan in 2009 (behind Dragon Quest 9 and the 5th highest selling in the entire year total). Hasn't even sold a copy in the US yet. Internal pre-order numbers through Gamestop are quite good as well.
Bad press? Blogs? Give me a break. As if these things make games irrelevant. The game won't be perfect, but by all accounts, it is a very good to great game as told by the people who actually played it and understand it.
Again, how about we wait a couple of months after release when people have played and digested this game and compare our thoughts? This thread is so damned early, it's laughable and just serves as a beacon to troll SE/JRPGs/whatever.
Edit: I like how you ignore Final Fantasy XIV by the way.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
They've got a bumpy road ahead, that much is true. The people who used to play Final Fantasy games for the "OMG CG cutscenes" and "epic stories" in the West now have more options, and have had years of this current generation to build up some expectations as to what they expect from a current-gen, big-budget extravaganza.
I can see FFXIII, while not being an awful game, being enough to seriously put a dent in the series' credibility. With FFXIV being an MMO, there's a long way to go before FFXV is released (hopefully a rebranded FF Versus XIII, as that branding is doomed to relative indifference in the West). Giving people that much time to stew on FFXIII probably won't be a good thing. In a few years, FFXIII will become 'what FF is now', and I can only imagine that most(?) will move on.
There has never been a better time for someone to steal Square's audience from under them, it's just that no one has the budget/time. It's about time someone did, though. Square seriously need the competition.
I can see FFXIII, while not being an awful game, being enough to seriously put a dent in the series' credibility. With FFXIV being an MMO, there's a long way to go before FFXV is released (hopefully a rebranded FF Versus XIII, as that branding is doomed to relative indifference in the West). Giving people that much time to stew on FFXIII probably won't be a good thing. In a few years, FFXIII will become 'what FF is now', and I can only imagine that most(?) will move on.
There has never been a better time for someone to steal Square's audience from under them, it's just that no one has the budget/time. It's about time someone did, though. Square seriously need the competition.
HappyBivouac
Member
Himuro, with all due respect you can't keep pretending that FFXIV doesn't exist or is somehow irrelevant. It's way more important to SE than FFXIII ever was.
VGChampion
Member
Not for me. X and XII have been the FF games that I replay the most. XII took me the longest to finish for some reason but Balthier and Fran were some of the best characters in the series imo.
Rahxephon91
Banned
ok most of the people who will actually buy this game will have no info in regard to this. They will see an ad or walk into Gamestop and will say "oh a new FF". Hell most of neogaf didn't know the game doesn't have towns. Most probably still don't. They wont know that Wried didn't like it or that its even by a different team who made FFXII.
Yes when was the last FF with actual mass appeal? Like 7 years ago. XII came out at the wrong time and XI does not actually count. This is the first actual FF to actually have a shot at any resurgence. Yeah the sales may declining but this doesn't mean anything right now. FFXIII is really the first FF since X to reach out unto a new audience. You guys so today's teenagers haven't grown up with FF. well I doubt the masses who bought into VII did as well. So thats a mute point. You say it won't appeal to them. I'd say it has a great chance of appealing to them. This is the group who listens to Lady Gaga,reads Twilight, wears tight jeans and such. Over generalization? Yeah, but the point is FFXIII is not something that is going to turn off people just because anime and stuff aren't super popular. FF has never looked like an anime (7 maybe), its always looked stylish.
I doubt that. What your seeing is the vocal minority. Gaf also hates Transformers 2. And most people buying this game could give a flying fuck what any magazine or online website has to say about any game. There not going to know or care what Wired thinks. And is it damage control or just answering a fucking question? So when a director gives a commentary and explains how a scene played out, is that damage control?
That sounds like the opposite of fans.
I don't see why not. If you mean missing up screenshots. Yes I doubt most people picking this up will even know about that. OH NO LEONA LEWIS! Isn't Leona Lewis popular?
No its not a stretch. That can be said for about anything. Its also not a stretch to say FFXIII will actually gain new audiences.
They do? What games are you talking about. I have yet to play any game that has reached a FF level presentation.
HappyBivouac
Member
Himuro said:
It's been hovering around 500k unique subscriptions for the past few years. Assuming people only have 1 character (most have 2 or 3, which adds an additional dollar per month per extra character beyond the first) that's
500,000 x $13 x 12 = $78,000,000 revenue per year
divide that by $60 and you get the equivalent of a game selling 1.3 mil copies every year. From a game released what, 7 years ago? (I realize with this last part there are several factors I'm not taking into account, but my point is illustrated.)
From a money/business perspective, the MMOs are clearly what's going to be keeping the FF franchise alive.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
"That sounds like the opposite of fans."
no one is doubting that you, and GAF, will be playing FFXV, XVI, XVII... L, Rahxephon91, but I think you're putting a bit too much faith in customer loyalty. People are fickle, they'll come and go with the latest trends.
no one is doubting that you, and GAF, will be playing FFXV, XVI, XVII... L, Rahxephon91, but I think you're putting a bit too much faith in customer loyalty. People are fickle, they'll come and go with the latest trends.
Rahxephon91
Banned
Yeah and they are also swayed by flash and brand name.Rez said:
Himuro said:
The mass market in any region doesn't think it's 4 years after the gen started, though. That's a conceit pretty much exclusive to self-proclaimed hardcore in the US, who only seem significant because you didn't live next door to a confident kid with a TurboGrafx in '88-'92 and get used to it.
There certainly is a fair amount of bad buzz in the Western blog/"journo"-sphere, but it's primarily among people who wouldn't have given a shit to begin with who have the vague concept tickling their dormant inner journalist that taking down a big name is a major scoop! rather than comprehending that the narrative they've pushed for several years, that's very well-suited to them and not so well-suited to an FF anything, doesn't resemble reality any more than the scribblings in Famitsu. (Probably slightly less, as at least Famitsu deliberately promotes niche imports on how well the niche import base will like them, delta how many times the publisher paid for dinner.}
If you think FF15 will take 5 years, you're either nuts or expecting that Chapter 0 will get its own game and we'll get a Versus-2. This is a feasible scenario, I'll admit.
And of course FF will need to shake things up to attract new fans, just like they did in every FF except 9. Sometimes this will be successful, sometimes this won't, but when you're talking one of the top five WW series, with the main character's face on bottles of Coke, you can't really improve sales except by tapping a radically new market. Everyone who cares already knows.
I wonder if FF8 was the most successful WW FF because it hit the teen-romance drama niche so well? That may well have been it.
I'm not too sure if I'll even buy FF13 come two weeks time. However I believe that is due to the stale nature towards JRPGs these days where complexity is trying to keep the genre from stagnating (and failing miserably for me).
Level 5 are giving them a good push. Their self-publishing antics are slowly building up to a point where commercial success is almost a certainty with each title released under their own wings. It should be interesting to see how much of an impact Ni no Kuni will make when it is released.Rez said:
HappyBivouac said:
It's actually slighly better than the picture you paint; I'm busy with other work right now and can't check, but the net games division -profited- either... $88 million or \88oku, off FFXI, Tetra Master Online (lol), and Front Mission Online (lolol). Also, the latest survey shows a slight uptick to 515,000 active subs, probably due to the lottery they ran.
Freyjadour
Member
Kintaro said:
Keep in mind a lot of people not only care nothing for MMOs, but genuinely hate XI/XIV for numerous reasons (having a number associated with them, taking time away from the next console game, etc.).
Personally, XIV is one of my most anticipated games provided they fix the glaring flaws that XI has. Give me that, and I really don't need much else out of SE for 4-5 years.
Himuro said:
While it certainly doesn't pull in the subscription numbers that WoW does, it has done quite well for itself over what is by MMO standards a very long lifetime.
Subscriptions without WoW and Lineage/Runescape
Steve Youngblood
Member
I've tried, but I just cannot get into MMOs. My experience was FFXI and WoW. Neither kept my attention enough to subscribe past the initial trial month.Vinci said:
BioWare is really trying to pique my interest with The Old Republic, but I think even they will fail to build the experience I want from an MMO.
Freyjadour
Member
Steve Youngblood said:
TOR looks less than an MMO and more like a Diablo MO with more focus on a storyline "playthroughs".
Also, it should be noted that MMOs take a long while to acclimate to. Seems like you played the first 10-20% of the game and decided it wasn't for you.
Deku said:
There's a thread on BG about it. It cites mmodata.net, which seems to be pretty authorative in tracking press releases even though it isn't the actual Vana'Diel Census.
I can't decide whether I'm more anxious for the next census because it'll be better ammunition in GAF threads or because I want a new Anniversary Ring. :lol
Edit:
Himuro said:
Well, 13->14 is going to be 9-12 months. I wouldn't expect any more than 18 for 15; late '11 or early '12 should do it if Versus is late '10 or early '11.
Freyjadour said:
That doesn't matter. MMOs are huge. A lot of people care nothing for them, a lot of people care very much about them. Insert that for any genre. Final Fantasy XI's success for over eight years proves that making it a mainline game wasn't a mistake. XIV will prove it as well. If people still have a problem with it, they need to grow up already and accept that MMOs are a bigger genre than damn near everything else.
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