FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
As someone who isn't a fan of LeBruh, I can't help but out respek on that name. Dude is a beast.
By the time he retires he'll definitely be in the top 8
By the time he retires he'll definitely be in the top 8
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Is Lebron James considered a top 5 NBA player of all time now?
- Thread starter MagicWithEarvin
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Vault Dweller 111
Member
You put finals losses for exactly one player lol. And are you surprised that LeBron made the all defense team or something?
LyleLanley
Banned
Wilt in many ways was the guy LeBron haters think LeBron is.
SamuelSupreme
Banned
Those Celtic teams didn't make Russell. Russell made those Celtic teams. By emphasizing team play and always being the prodigal leader. His impact on the game goes way beyond the stat sheet.
Ninja Scooter
Member
TT is not a good rim protector and not a good enough athlete to consistently switch out on the perimeter. You are right they the C position is not what is used to be, but that is based on what we knew the position to be in the 80s and 90s. Russell was never that kind of guy. He was built more like Paul George, only with better paint defense and rebounding instincts. It's like things came back around and a guy like Russell is exactly what modern teams would be looking for.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
He's not getting the credit when you got people saying Lebron carried the team, or some nonsense like that. Kyrie on offense was big time throughout the entire playoffs, with a handful of exceptions here and there. He was key for keeping the Cavs alive on a number of occasions during the finals, when the offense was stagnating or in need of a big shot or insane finish at the basket.
SamuelSupreme
Banned
Until this series I would have said LeBron was just like Wilt. Except now he's done something that's never been done before. He took quite possibly the most pressure ever faced by a pro athlete and thrived. Wilt would have crumbled and choked.
BadAss2961
Member
Just look at his numbers. Dude was absolutely unreal.
I always thought of LeBron being most comparable to him in terms of dominating but not winning.
OrangeJulius
Member
What is the point of even trying to debate the ranking of a player who is still playing? Lebron himself has said he wants to play until 40 or so. We'll see if that actually happens or not, but still, at 31 he still has at least 5 or 6 years left.
How about we rank him after he laces em' up for the last time rather than when he is realistically only about 60% through his career barring some crazy injury?
How about we rank him after he laces em' up for the last time rather than when he is realistically only about 60% through his career barring some crazy injury?
I don't understand people criticizing the finals record. How is it less an accomplishment to finish second as opposed to 3rd? Do you guys discount Jack Nicholas as a golfer because of all the times he finished second? Most golf fans consider that one of his great accomplishments. Its considered a sign of sustained excellence and consistency.
Hasnt he only been favored in only 2 or 3 finals? Maybe I would understand more if he kept going in as a heavy favorite and underachieving, but thats not the case.
Btw...I think Shaq is the hardest to rate on these things. Peak Shaq is top 3. But we only got that for a few years.
Hasnt he only been favored in only 2 or 3 finals? Maybe I would understand more if he kept going in as a heavy favorite and underachieving, but thats not the case.
Btw...I think Shaq is the hardest to rate on these things. Peak Shaq is top 3. But we only got that for a few years.
Jack The Nipper
Banned
the top numbers are always an interesting but flawed idea when you are having to compare so many time rames and ideas.
But if I was to take draft picks for what I see they can do I would take people like bird , magic over james today. Even though people don't see a player like bird as better.
But the dude work harder and had a mental set that is just stronger. you see it in his crazy steals, his shooting and his determination. Not that lebron doesn't have some of that he does for sure but he is no where near as hard working or mentally strong as a bird for me. Bird is just downright creative and put his body through some of the biggest hell you could imagine from banging, superman jumps and just trying anything and never ever giving up on any play.
Bird was one of the most interesting players to watch even though by the time I was watching him he was older and I was super young but still great. Bird isn't top 5 perhaps but the point is I would want him on my team if I had a choice between him, lebron and a few other top picks.
This is not really saying that he is my favorite player or that I feel he is the best but just how underrated some players truly are cause of time. If bird was playing today, it would be the bird show, not the bron bron or steph show. I'd like to believe birds three's would only improve today
But if I was to take draft picks for what I see they can do I would take people like bird , magic over james today. Even though people don't see a player like bird as better.
But the dude work harder and had a mental set that is just stronger. you see it in his crazy steals, his shooting and his determination. Not that lebron doesn't have some of that he does for sure but he is no where near as hard working or mentally strong as a bird for me. Bird is just downright creative and put his body through some of the biggest hell you could imagine from banging, superman jumps and just trying anything and never ever giving up on any play.
Bird was one of the most interesting players to watch even though by the time I was watching him he was older and I was super young but still great. Bird isn't top 5 perhaps but the point is I would want him on my team if I had a choice between him, lebron and a few other top picks.
This is not really saying that he is my favorite player or that I feel he is the best but just how underrated some players truly are cause of time. If bird was playing today, it would be the bird show, not the bron bron or steph show. I'd like to believe birds three's would only improve today
Please explain. Russell individually dominated Wilt every time they met in the playoffs. It got so bad that Russell used to get angry at Wilt for playing like a coward against him because he wanted a more challenging rival. Imagine 2011 Finals LeBron, but worse and every year. That is Wilt's legacy. Ridiculous numbers because he didn't care about winning, and getting bodied by Russell every playoffs.
BadAss2961
Member
Russell wouldn't be a standout athlete by today's standards though, which would affect all aspects of his game. He could still hustle and have great rebounding instincts, but how good of a rim protector could he be at 6'9?
Modern teams would love to have real big men with offensive skill like back in the day, but they just haven't been coming along. Every other big is trying to shoot threes now too instead of focusing on dominating down low.
SamuelSupreme
Banned
That just says to me that the sides was more concerned about his individual stats then his team winning. This is the same guy who would change his game when the media questioned his ability.
OrangeJulius
Member
Right? I mean, if he retired last night we could have this discussion, or if the was 37 and clearly a corpse on the court like Kobe the past couple years. He clearly still has gas in the tank, and has a few more dominant years ahead of him. If the Cavs keep the core intact, maybe retool a couple more pieces there is a good chance he wins a couple more chips before all is said and done.
Rank him then, anything in the meantime is silly. Ninja Scooter has already done enough to thoroughly discredit his GAF haters. Logic and stats don't lie.
BadAss2961
Member
This is bullshit though. Wilt put up insane numbers against Russell, but ultimately got bodied by the better team. I remember Russell even saying that he would let Wilt dominate to keep the others out of the game.
There's no way you can defend LeBron and get on Wilt for the same shit but with far more ridiculous stats.
HawksWinStanley
Member
He's on the cusp on top 5 which is a compliment from me considering how biased I am since the defensive rule changes. I'm hardly impressed by scoring numbers anymore in an era where you literally can't lay a hand on an offensive player without it being a foul. It's a joke now.
Ninja Scooter
Member
the reason the modern big is being phased out isn't because there isn't the same kind of talent, it's because the "dump the ball to the big man, stand around and watch him work" offense is not currently in vogue. Teams want to increase the amount of possessions and run a lot and that kind of game runs counter to a slower paced post game. There are still guys who are skilled out of the post (Kevin love, Jahlil Okafor, al Jefferson, Enes Kanter) they just aren't as valued as they used to be, just like back in the 90s there were good three point shooters but they weren't as valued back then. It's just different eras, but let's not sit here with nostalgia goggles and pretend that in the early 90s the league was just over flowing with offensively skilled big men. That's always been a rarity, which is why throughout the 80s and 90s teams would so often reach for a center in the draft and wind up with a bust. The only real difference now is that teams aren't chasing that skill set like they were in the late 80s and 90s.
As to your first point, Draymond Green exists.
No I am not saying Lebron is 1 because he plays today. I am saying if I am starting a new team today and had to pick those guys in their prime, I choose Lebron number 1.
I actually love watching Kobe and have watched him since he entered the league, but I don't think you can move him above any of those other guys. Lebron and Kobe were both on teams with sub-par supporting casts, but Lebron was still able to have some playoff success with those teams. Where do you rank Kobe?
TheWarrior
Banned
Russel is the best player of his era
Jordan is the best player of his era
Lebron is the best player of the current era.
It's hard comparing different generations. From a physical standpoint, Lebron is certainly the most complete athlete of the 3. I'm certain there are other sports that he would be able to compete in at a high level.
Jordan is the best player of his era
Lebron is the best player of the current era.
It's hard comparing different generations. From a physical standpoint, Lebron is certainly the most complete athlete of the 3. I'm certain there are other sports that he would be able to compete in at a high level.
The Albatross
Member
He should be.
I hate the comparisons over era though. It's so hard to compare team-sport athletes from one era to another. I'd put Russell in any top 5, I always considered Jordan #1 and Russel #2, but could Russel get out worked by a guy today if playing the same sport? Yeah, probably. But the sport has changed, the rules have changed, the style of the game has changed. It doesn't mean that top player A today is better than top player A from yesteryear, but that the top player today is fine tuned around how the game is played today, and the top guy from a generation ago is tuned around how the game was played then.
I hate the comparisons over era though. It's so hard to compare team-sport athletes from one era to another. I'd put Russell in any top 5, I always considered Jordan #1 and Russel #2, but could Russel get out worked by a guy today if playing the same sport? Yeah, probably. But the sport has changed, the rules have changed, the style of the game has changed. It doesn't mean that top player A today is better than top player A from yesteryear, but that the top player today is fine tuned around how the game is played today, and the top guy from a generation ago is tuned around how the game was played then.
Dreams-Visions
Member
He is the only one I 100% put above him. The rest are all debatable to me. By the time his career ends, it may not be a debate anymore.
BadAss2961
Member
I don't buy that though. You can't honestly compare Love, Okafor, Jefferson and Kanter to the likes of Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, and Duncan. There haven't been talents like that slipping through the cracks just because the league is moving to running up and down the court jacking threes. Throughout history, it was usually the big men that would shape the game. I think the league has moved in this current direction because there hasn't been a truly dominant big in awhile now. Instead, the best we've gotten is guys like Dwight who tried to be that but killed off that trend because he never put it together offensively.
Davis and Cousins have a shot, but both need to step it up.
This. By hearing some people here, you might think that he is a rich man Monroe
Ninja Scooter
Member
Yes, you can. They aren't developing the same way because the emphasis isn't there, but there are talented post players these days. Analytics have deemed dedicated post play as more inefficient than it was previously thought to be and so that is the trend a lot of front offices are biting on, and that's affected the way these guys are viewed and allowed to develop, but the talent is there. Again, even in the early to mid 90s you had, what? Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing and Robinson? It wasn't exactly over flowing with talent. And then the 2nd tier of guys like Rik Smits, Divac, old man Sabonis.
sonycowboy
Member
I have him #2 behind Jordan. He is, without a doubt, the most accomplished player of all time. Not as many rings as Russsell, but including his entire basketball career...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/292078-is-kareem-abdul-jabbar-the-greatest-basketball-player-ever
psynergylover
Member
it's not that Kyrie isn't a great player but if you took Lebron out of Cleveland do you seriously think they would've won the finals let alone make the playoffs?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cleveland_Cavaliers_seasons
look at when he arrived, left and then when he came back
he carried that whole team
transience
Member
Here's my take.
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Lebron
4. Shaq
5. Duncan
Wilt and Russell are hard to compare to today's players but I would take Shaq over Wilt and Duncan over Russell. I think Shaq/Duncan are a good modern parallel to them actually.
For fun:
6. Magic
7. Russell
8. Bird
9. Wilt
10. Kobe
11. West
12. Hakeem
13. Moses
14. Oscar
15. Pettit
16. Karl
17. Barkley
18. Robinson
19. Garnett
20. Barry
Durant might crack this list in a few more years. Dirk, who I adore, is probably next.
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Lebron
4. Shaq
5. Duncan
Wilt and Russell are hard to compare to today's players but I would take Shaq over Wilt and Duncan over Russell. I think Shaq/Duncan are a good modern parallel to them actually.
For fun:
6. Magic
7. Russell
8. Bird
9. Wilt
10. Kobe
11. West
12. Hakeem
13. Moses
14. Oscar
15. Pettit
16. Karl
17. Barkley
18. Robinson
19. Garnett
20. Barry
Durant might crack this list in a few more years. Dirk, who I adore, is probably next.
BadAss2961
Member
You could put Malone in there too. 5 leading big men of top tier teams is actually a very good amount for an era -- especially compared to today's bagel. There's no way those current players could compare to these guys. The best of the two, Love and Jefferson, would rack up hollow stats on teams that couldn't even make the playoffs.
I do agree though that bigs are being developed differently now. But that's just a symptom of the current trend, which will be turned upside down once another dominant big comes along.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Again, I think you are grossly overrated the talent levels of prior eras, and underestimating how much trends and patterns affect how guys develop. 20 years ago Steph Curry would be benched for shooting 10 threes a game. The fact that he's not has allowed him to develop into what he is. Same with some bigs. There are guys with exceptional footwork, soft hands, great around the rim, the difference is that they aren't asked to pound the ball into the paint with their back to the basket 20 times a game like they would have been in 1993. I think you could take Kanter, Stephen Adams, either Gasol, KAT, Davis, DMC, Okafor, Al Jefferson and magically drop them in 1993 and any of them would probably be 17-20+ PPG guys that GMs would try and build their teams around.
I guess the crux of the argument is sort of chicken/egg. You seem to think that the NBA moved away from big men and post game because of a lack of talent. I think it's the opposite. Analytical teams started to move away from focusing their offenses through big men, and the market and the way players were valued and developed followed suit. It's like running backs in the NFL. The reason you don't see as many all time single RBs isn't for a lack of talent, across all sports there is probably as many skilled and athletically talented individuals as there ever was, it's because a few smart teams realized "hey throwing the ball 40 times a game is actually more efficient and effective than moving the ball 3 yards at a time" and everyone else started to copy them.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Russell is up there for me too i wouldnt argue with you if you'd replace em
CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls
Banned
Yep.
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. LBJ
4. Don't care
5. Don't care.
LyleLanley
Banned
BadAss2961
Member
There's also rule changes to take into account. In addition to shortening the 3 point line, you can play zone in the NBA now. Both of these have an effect in clogging the lane and putting more emphasis on ball movement and shooting more threes.
The reason why the NFL has moved away from RBs is all about rule changes. The league has absolutely crippled what defenses are allowed to do, opening up the passing game like crazy.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
They should have a plaque with his finals record in the background. I heard it's really good because he's so dominant.
LyleLanley
Banned
HE LIVES!
DontBeThatGuy
Member
He's obviously the best player, but you are absolutely pedaling nonsense when you say he "carried" as if Kyrie wasn't right there dropping 40 with him, or hitting some of biggest shots, and the most difficult. The dude played huge, and you best believe Bron isn't getting the chip without Irving doing the things he did. It's a partnership, stop downplaying those accomplishments.
WhiskerFrisker
Member
lol
I'd definitely put Lebron top 5. I was rooting against him but he always puts up numbers that back up why he is considered "King" James. I definitely think Jordan is more skilled as a player but Lebron is definitely a beast.
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
While it's almost impossible to compare players in this fashion for the sake of argument I will say he's somewhere in the group not called Jordan/Wilt. As a basketball fan, I can't say with a straight face that Lebron is better than Kobe. I get the argument and it is most compelling but how can I justify it?
He is a transcendent player in this generation but against other all-timers, I'll say its a push.
It's kinda a bitch-answer on my part but he's no higher than 3 and no less than 10. Gun to my he's 7 or 8
He is a transcendent player in this generation but against other all-timers, I'll say its a push.
It's kinda a bitch-answer on my part but he's no higher than 3 and no less than 10. Gun to my he's 7 or 8
RatchetWhiteGirls
Member
So if Lebron had only made it to the 3 finals that he won and not the 4 he lost would you think of him in a higher regard for being 3/3?
SocksAndShoes
Banned
This is adorable.
On the first few pages there was a discussion about how we knock lebron for finals losses but don't hold it against players for losing in earlier rounds:
I think part of the reason why people hold lebron's finals record against him is because in nearly all of his finals appearances, his teams have coasted through the East and been relatively fresh compared to whomever grinded their way out of the west.
Those chances to shut the door on a fatigued and vulnerable opponent are where fans look for that killer instinct. Since LeBron had that ridiculous 28 point streak at the age of 22 in what I believe was an elimination game, people have known that he has that instinct. I'm not sure we've seen lebron's teams jump out to a 2-0 or 3-1 series lead in any finals, though, to capitalize on the west's fatigue.
Is it fair? No. But when you're being compared to a player who is 1. The greatest clutch performer in history, and who 2. Was undefeated in 6 NBA finals and never let it get to 7 games (I don't think he ever lost in an elimination game for his opponent,either), those are the criticisms you'll have to face.
I think part of the reason why people hold lebron's finals record against him is because in nearly all of his finals appearances, his teams have coasted through the East and been relatively fresh compared to whomever grinded their way out of the west.
Those chances to shut the door on a fatigued and vulnerable opponent are where fans look for that killer instinct. Since LeBron had that ridiculous 28 point streak at the age of 22 in what I believe was an elimination game, people have known that he has that instinct. I'm not sure we've seen lebron's teams jump out to a 2-0 or 3-1 series lead in any finals, though, to capitalize on the west's fatigue.
Is it fair? No. But when you're being compared to a player who is 1. The greatest clutch performer in history, and who 2. Was undefeated in 6 NBA finals and never let it get to 7 games (I don't think he ever lost in an elimination game for his opponent,either), those are the criticisms you'll have to face.
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