I think he's alluding to the fact that this stat makes his 7 NBA finals less impressive
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Is Lebron James considered a top 5 NBA player of all time now?
- Thread starter MagicWithEarvin
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I think he's alluding to the fact that this stat makes his 7 NBA finals less impressive
dragonyeuw
Member
Yes, but that helps the argument that getting to the finals 7 times is partly due to the relative weakness of the eastern conference. If he had spent the last 13 years in the west, and gotten to 7 finals, that would be a different conversation. And considering that he has lost 4 times in the finals( Spurs twice,Mavs, Golden State), it's likely he would have met those teams while in the west hypothetically and possibly lost prior to the finals( depending on the team around him).
sonycowboy
Member
Did you see how badly he played in 2011 against Dallas? You can't write off such a bad finals series because being on "Mount Rushmore" does mean that you play great in big games. It wasn't just one bad game. It was all 6 (especially the 4th quarters).
I have no problem with him losing in 2007 with the team he brought. The fact they made it to the finals was ALL due to him. Also, last year he gets a pass for having Kyrie and Love out and taking it to 6 games again was all on him (and Tristan Thompson).
2011 and 2014 do count against him though...
The best players MUST play their best in big games.
Isn't that the point?
Not that it's Lebron's fault, but he has spent the majority of his career in a tragically weak Eastern Conference. That same weakness extends to his own teams, too, though. He consistently dragged lifeless corpses to the playoffs and even the Finals (2007).
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Apparently going through a cupcake conference 7 times and not even having a winning record in the finals is no big deal. Not to mention the year where his 60+ win team lost an Orlando magic team with Dwight Howard and Rafer Alston, that was a total choke job.
jordan0386
Member
By several metrics, Bron was the best post up player in the NBA, in Miami.
LyleLanley
Banned
How is that still not extremely impressive. Him and James Jones are the only non-Celtics to ever go to 6 straight finals.
n0razi
Member
So basically Curry can never be among the best because of his past finals performance regardless of how he does in the future?
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Do you ever ask yourself how his career would look like right now if he didn't spend his career in the safe confines of the East?
Selective memory right here.
LeBron has certainly lost a step (who wouldn't by 31 and with as many miles as he has on his body), but his first step in the first five to seven years of his career was exceptional.
With that said, I think Jordan Prime was faster than James Prime.
n0razi
Member
This
That he means he also played with weaker East team mates... you could argue that he would have had a much better supporting cast if he played for say LA, OKC, or SA
We don't really know. It's possible he has a tougher time getting to the Finals. It's possible he still gets to the Finals every year because he signed with the Spurs or something. That's the problem with counterfactuals.
LyleLanley
Banned
He'd be a ringless bum.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
Isn't this an argument for or against any player in either conference?
Lebron haters keep making that taffy....stretch and stretch and stretch.....
Easily. He would have lost his bench warming spot to Adam Morrison.
dragonyeuw
Member
Nothing selective about it. Even at his peak he didn't have a great first step. And when I said great, I'm talking MJ great, Wade great, Iverson great, Westbrook great. I wouldn't expect him to given his size, but the point remains.
I understand 2011 but 2014? Lebron was the best player on the court in that series.
I wasn't saying it isn't*. I was just speculating as to why he posted that image.
*It is impressive, regardless of conference
Twilight Princess
Member
Why Lebron already looks older than mj?
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Well let's say that LeBron won't play baseball for a couple years, and won't retire and then come back after that. And we call it a wash.
I like Lebron but has this been posted yet...
9 for Lebron if you include toronto and gsw from this year.
What does the graphic look like for 70 win teams?
sonycowboy
Member
There's lots of reasons why Curry won't be among the best... He's a insane shooter, but I'm not willing to put him in the top 30-40 at this point even with his past 2 seasons.
But, regarding Lebron, I'm saying you take EVERYTHING into account. You don't discount losses in the finals. It's a fact the eastern conference has been FAR behind the west for Lebron's whole career so it does discount a bit that he's gotten there 7 times, but if he was 5-2 and played much better, I'd put him in the top 4.
Lebron's already in my top 6 and he still has room to move up. But he's go blemishes that he'll need to compensate for.
sonycowboy
Member
What does the graphic look like for 70 win teams?
Beautiful. lol
But they beat Golden State.
I sometimes go back into the "Is Steph Curry the GOAT?" thread from time to time because of how ridiculous it was to read people arguing he was.
Players on 70-win Championship teams:What does the graphic look like for 70 win teams?
Michael Jordan
Steph
Most of those kinds of people are probably saying "Who?"
He would be blowing out teams like Indiana and Chicago in the Finals instead of in the ECF.
teruterubozu
Member
Fantastic GM.
LyleLanley
Banned
Players on 70-win Championship teams:
Michael Jordan
There have to have been at least 1 or 2 other guys on that team.
sonycowboy
Member
Vault Dweller 111
Member
He'd be undefeated in the finals, but would have gone fewer times. And for some reason that would be better.
I'm sure Pippen must place somewhere on the original list, too, but since I was only using the people originally named, I stuck with just Jordan and not the entire Bulls team.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
I didn't realize Skip Bayless was on Gaf.
The Albatross
Member
Yep... I always hate these "If X played with Y then X would have as good a record as Z," because there's just too many factors. "If Lebron played with Pippen, Lebron would have 6 more titles," but then you have to think, if Lebron played with Pippen, would that hypothetical team be able to spend as much on other players...? Would that mean Jordan played for Detroit or Shaq + Penny + Jordan in Orlando...? Would Detroit, with Jordan, upset hypothetical Bulls with Pippen and Lebron...?
And it's the same with the arguments around the strength of conferences or like opponents. If Lebron was in the West, would that mean that Duncan, or Nowitzki, or some other quality player from the West is now perhaps on Cleveland or Miami? Could the Spurs afford to pay Lebron, DUncan, and the rest of that team...? And so on.
Comparing conferences also has a recency bias and fails to take into account other factors. I think that Russel is one of the greatest players of all time, and far and away the greatest person associated to the sport of basketball (player, coach, civil rights activist, part owner, front office guy, and everything he's done for the league and, most importantly, American society), but when comparing Lebron with these players and Russel appears on a list with 11 championships, people will bring up how Lebron played in a weak east and only beat 9 50-win teams in the playoffs. Well... Russell played in an era when there were only 8 teams in the league for most of his early championships, and only ever faced another team with 50 wins in the playoffs a handful of times (and only in the championship) because it's nearly mathematically impossible for 2 teams to have 50 wins in the same conference when there's only 4 teams per conference. Do you discount Russell for that?
To Far Away Times
Member
Maybe not a popular opinion but I would take prime Shaq over prime LeBron.
LeBron is a great player of course.
LeBron is a great player of course.
RatchetWhiteGirls
Member
So the 'stacked' western conference couldn't even beat the 'cupcake' eastern conference champion this year, what does that say about GS and the western conference? Your ignoring the question and going off on tangents again, would you think higher or lower of Lebron if he was 3/3 in the Finals as opposed to 3/7?
I can see why people feel that seeing one of the top 5 players of all time lose more finals than he won somehow diminishes his legacy a bit. Not saying I agree but I can see that argument.
Seeing Jordan go 6-0 in the Finals only adds to his mystique
He would be on a stronger team in the West and have 4 titles?
TheLaughingStock
Member
What does the graphic look like for 70 win teams?
RatchetWhiteGirls
Member
So would you have a higher regard for Lebron if he had only made it to 3 finals and won them and not made it 4 other times and lost? In hindsight he should have just forfeited in the ECF because he wasn't going to win the title? If GS had lost to OKC and not had a chance to lose to the Cavs in the finals would you consider them a better squad for it?
The Albatross
Member
Players on 70-win Championship teams:
Michael Jordan
well... More like
well ... you get the point.
Setzer
Member
This exactly. No way he would have gone to 6 straight finals if he was in the Western Conference.
Hahahahahahaha the series where Lebron averaged a 39/8/8 on 49% shooting is a choke job to you ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
dragonyeuw
Member
Not sure why that would be unpopular, Shaq's peak was ridiculous.
He'd probably make the Finals maybe one /two times less. He's beat the Spurs and now the Warriors. Only reigning western team he never had a series against were the Lakers and he would generally own them in the regular season.
Also, is this assuming he has one of those stacked western conference rosters because lol
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