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[Laptop1991]

Voted no not at the performance cost, its been out for years now and it's still hitting performance with each new more powerful GPU gen, we shouldn't be having to use upscaling tech like Dlss and Fsr to get fps up to use it fully

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

That aint exactly a perfect reflection, far from it, unless that was your point. I never argued that games have only pixel perfect mirror-like reflections, I only said, it's being overused on surfaces that shouldnt be seen or in certain case, on a lot of surfaces that are wasted since youll never notice them playing the game.



So very rarely as I pointed out lol

Reflection is dimmed because this TV have a coating to dimm the reflections, but reflection itself is razor sharp. Real puddle will not dim reflections to such degree.

 

[bitbydeath]

......
Lumen is RT at its core... It doesn't matter how many corners are cut,(in the software mode mainly, with HA not so much)

If we'd go with your stance suddenly a lot of RT implementations wouldn't be RT anymore because the lack of hardware power is usually compensated by denoisers or abstracted geometry fields or or or.... The only difference to countless other implementations we simply refer to as "RT" is that Epic decided to name their system......
And by the way... Chat GPT? Seriously.....

Watch the inside unreal presentation about lumen if you still don't understand it..... That may take longer than the 10s it took you to ask chat GPT, though.

You're basically discussing semantics here.

It's all been laid out above through numerous quotes from numerous people. RT is not the same as Lumen it is a different GI solution.

 

[gatti-man]

This poll may as well read "how much money do you spend on your PC". Because Ray tracing always makes a game look better. Literally always.

So the debate is can your machine run it well. And to do that at 4k you need a pretty expensive card. Wukong for example is breathtaking with ray tracing on. I run it on every game I can. I'd know if it made games look worse some of these arguments are pretty out there. Even screen caps can lie bc baked lighting doesn't react like RT and in motion RT looks so so much better because it looks real. Immersion matters. Pre baked can never compare because of all the little details RT provides on models and items in the game.

 

[Schmendrick]

It's all been laid out above through numerous quotes from numerous people. RT is not the same as Lumen it is a different GI solution.

bullshit, If someone is using Lumen he`s using RT, plain and simple. Just because Epic gave their RT system a PR-name doesn`t change its fundamental nature.... RT is like "car" there`s a myriad of different specced models but they are all cars.
All that you`re showing with your argument is that you have not looked past the first sentence of your own "research". The tech behind Lumen is RT, and that can`t be discussed away.

 

[bitbydeath]

bullshit, If someone is using Lumen he`s using RT....

If you say so, clearly the internet is wrong it can't be you.

 

[Schmendrick]

If you say so, clearly the internet is wrong it can't be you.

Lol..."the internet", go watch Epic`s own Lumen tech breakdown. Maybe don`t try to act as if you knew anything if you`ve barely managed to ask a LLM.....
Ray tracing is ray tracing, no matter if you trace per pixel, per voxel field, per xy...it`s still RT, albeit with varying accuracy and performance levels, and the names company xy gives their RT systems don`t matter.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

Voted no not at the performance cost, its been out for years now and it's still hitting performance with each new more powerful GPU gen, we shouldn't be having to use upscaling tech like Dlss and Fsr to get fps up to use it fully

It depends on the resolution and your performance target. At 1440p DLSSQuality high end nvidia GPUs can achieve 120fps in most RT games. The most optimized RT games like doom eternal or Resident Evil remakes run at well over 120fps even at 4K native.

With the help of the DLSS FG, you can run even the most demanding RT and PT games at high refresh rates and get 4K-like picture quality. You make it sound like people are losing quality by using DLSS, but that's not the case. DLSS can often look better than native TAA (especially the latest DLSS version, which you can download and use in DLSS-supported games).


DLSS is not true upscaling dude. Standard upscaling simply increases the size of the image without adding any real detail, whereas DLSS uses temporal data to add real detail. The reconstructed image have an even higher resolution than your input resolution. Personally, I always use DLSS because I like to play with the best picture quality possible, and DLSS balance + DLDSR2.25x absolutely destroys TAA native while offering the same performance.

Even 4K DLSS performance (1080p input resolution) can absolutely look like a 4K image. Here's my screenshots. The game runs smoothly at these settings with full RT / PT and the image quality still looks amazing.

 

[dezzy8]

I turn it on as long as it doesn't tank my fps. I can live without it though.

 

[bitbydeath]

Lol..."the internet", go watch Epic`s own Lumen tech breakdown. Maybe don`t try to act as if you knew anything if you`ve barely managed to ask a LLM.....
Ray tracing is ray tracing, no matter if you trace per pixel, per voxel field, per xy...it`s still RT, albeit with varying accuracy and performance levels, and the names company xy gives their RT systems don`t matter.

And a drawing is a drawing despite two images being vastly different I suppose.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

For me, yes, but I also spent $1,200 on my GPU alone

 

[Mister Wolf]

And a drawing is a drawing despite two images being vastly different I suppose.

Yes, Raytracing in your example would be the pencil. Regardless of how detailed you choose to make the drawing, you are still using the pencil/raytracing. I'm glad you understand now. Took a while. Can't make this anymore simpler for you to understand.

 

[Schmendrick]

And a drawing is a drawing despite two images being vastly different I suppose.

Doesn`t matter if it`s rembrandt or a toddler, both use a pencil. Lumen may only trace vs SDF in its software variant, but it`s still tracing rays......
How much longer do you wish to demonstrate your lack of understanding of technological facts?

 

[bitbydeath]

Yes, Raytracing in your example would be the pencil. Regardless of how detailed you choose to make the drawing, you are still using the pencil/raytracing. I'm glad you understand now. Took a while. Can't make this anymore simpler for you to understand.

Ray tracing and Lumen are each different pencils. The code is what makes them different and it is the code/pencils that draws the picture/different GI.

You could say there are some of the same materials used in the makeup of the pencil, that's as close as they get.

 

[bitbydeath]

Doesn`t matter if it`s rembrandt or a toddler, both use a pencil. Lumen may only trace vs SDF in its software variant, but it`s still tracing rays......
How much longer do you wish to demonstrate your lack of understanding of technological facts?

Well, I'll leave it here.
It's you vs the internet now.

 

[Schmendrick]

Well, I'll leave it here.
It's you vs the internet now.

That part of the internet that claims vaccinations cause autism.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Ray tracing and Lumen are each different pencils. The code is what makes them different and it is the code/pencils that draws the picture/different GI.

You could say there are some of the same materials used in the makeup of the pencil, that's as close as they get.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

That part of the internet that claims vaccinations cause autism.

I've seen studies and real-world examples in my family that clearly suggest there's a connection, but if I started talking about it in great detail here, I'd get banned.

However, your point about the RT vs Lumen is a valid one.

 

[Laptop1991]

It depends on the resolution and your performance target. At 1440p native high end nvidia GPUs can achieve 120fps in most RT games, and around 60-80fps in PT games. Many games also run well over 60fps at 4K native (some like Doom eternal or Resident Evil remakes even run at well over 120fps).

With the help of the AI (DLSS), you can run even the most demanding RT and PT games at high refresh rates and get 4K-like picture quality. You make it sound like people are losing quality by using DLSS, but that's not the case. DLSS can often look better than native TAA (especially the latest DLSS version, which you can download and use in DLSS-supported games).


DLSS is not true upscaling dude. Standard upscaling simply increases the size of the image without adding any real detail, whereas DLSS uses temporal data to add real detail. The reconstructed image have an even higher resolution than your input resolution. Personally, I always use DLSS because I like to play with the best picture quality possible, and DLSS balance + DLDSR2.25x absolutely destroys TAA native while offering the same performance.

Even 4K DLSS performance (1080p input resolution) can absolutely look like a 4K image. Here's my screenshots. The game runs smoothly at these settings with full RT / PT and the image quality still looks amazing.

Most PC gamers don't have high end GPU's do they, and the high end ones cost a lot more than they did 10 years ago like the 980 which was 400 quid brand new and didn't need upscaling to achieve higher fps at native and i use raytracing in Cyberpunk so yeah you get more fps using it and the image looks fine and while nothing you've said is wrong, my vote is till C at the moment and at native with RT, not good enough imo,

4070ti at 1440p native resolution, which is better than my current card, not very impressive native res at 1440p and not worth the price Cyberpunk 42 fps, 800 quid on Amazon Uk,

 

[E-Cat]

With each successive year, more so.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

Most PC gamers don't have high end GPU's do they, and the high end ones cost a lot more than they did 10 years ago like the 980 which was 400 quid brand new and didn't need upscaling to achieve higher fps at native and i use raytracing in Cyberpunk so yeah you get more fps using it and the image looks fine and while nothing you've said is wrong, my vote is till C at the moment and at native with RT, not good enough imo,

4070ti at 1440p native resolution, which is better than my current card, not very impressive native res at 1440p and not worth the price Cyberpunk 42 fps, 800 quid on Amazon Uk,

I saw this video before I upgraded my GPU. The 4070tiS kept dropping to around 42-44fps, while the 4080S ran the same benchmark scene at 55-65fps, so I decided to go with the 4080S.

You have to remember this is the most GPU intensive place in entire game. When I played this game I usually saw much higher fps.

If you only willing to use DLSS even cyberpunk will run like like a dream on something like the RTX4070tiS and this is one of the most demanding RT games that's out there.

 

[Laptop1991]

I saw this video before I upgraded my GPU. The 4070tiS kept dropping to around 42-44fps, while the 4080S ran the same benchmark scene at 55-65fps, so I decided to go with the 4080S.

You have to remember this is the most GPU intensive place in entire game. When I played this game on my OC'ed 4080S (2.9GHz core and 814GB/s memory bandwidth) I usually saw 70-80fps at 1440p native with psycho RT and max detail settings. With the help of DLSS the game runs at 120fps and I could still use DLSS FG if that wouldnt be good enough.

If you only willing to use DLSS even cyberpunk will run like like a dream on this 4070tiS and this is one of the most demanding RT games that's out there.

Yeah ok, good choice for you, ,but 42fps in a 4 year old game with a card at native res which is 4 years newer then add RT or PT on top which tanks the fps even more, then you HAVE to use upscaling tech to get decent frame rates is not worth it for me at 800 quid,

Its ok for the 4090 owners, but they are a really small percentage of the PC gamer player base and i'll be buying a whole new PC soon as mine is old and will go for a 5090, which will no doubt cost even more than a 4090, thats so i don't have to put up with low fps, not because i want to spend that amount but i shouldn't have much bother for at least 5 years, that's if the ports are good and the games work on release as well, and most games don't even look like they need it for me,

so i'm still with the majority on C choice, but each to their own.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

Yeah ok, good choice for you, ,but 42fps in a 4 year old game with a card at native res which is 4 years newer then add RT or PT on top which tanks the fps even more, then you HAVE to use upscaling tech to get decent frame rates is not worth it for me at 800 quid,

Its ok for the 4090 owners, but they are a really small percentage of the PC gamer player base and i'll be buying a whole new PC soon as mine is old and will go for a 5090, which will no doubt cost even more than a 4090, thats so i don't have to put up with low fps, not because i want to spend that amount but i shouldn't have much bother for at least 5 years, that's if the ports are good and the games work on release as well, and most games don't even look like they need it for me,

so i'm still with the majority on C choice, but each to their own.

Cyberpunk itself is 4 years old, but this DLC is new and more intense than the base game. With tweaked RT settings instead of Ultra, the RTX4070tiS would get over 60fps even on this DLC map, and the game would still look a lot better than pure raster, especially water and car reflections. I'm sure RTX4070tiS owners are playing this game with RT on. With the help of DLSS (DLSS offers better image quality than native TAA in this game), the 4070tiS should get around 80-100 fps and over 120 fps with DLSS FG on top of that. That's not a bad experience at all.

 

[Wolzard]

The vids prove my point. None of the reflections are perfect mirror like lol. Guess you need to get out and walk a little more than me if you think random puddles on streets are crystal clear. From your own fucking video

Reflections should be naturally blurry, puddles have ripples, dirt, etc. that rarely make them mirror-like. Emphasis on the word rare, I did not say never or dismissed that it's not possible. But games seem to aim for always perfect clear reflections which is stupid. The only benefit RT reflections have are the angle of them not vanishing, but a performance rt reflection setting is enough to be super realistic. Theres no need to render the reflections at full resolution like most devs seem to crank up. It's just fucking common sense.

You probably need to go to the doctor, you have a serious case of myopia and you see the world in a blurred way.

 

[Laptop1991]

Cyberpunk itself is 4 years old, but this DLC is new and more intense than the base game. With tweaked RT settings instead of Ultra, the RTX4070tiS would get over 60fps even on this DLC map, and the game would still look a lot better than pure raster, especially water and car reflections. I'm sure RTX4070tiS owners are playing this game with RT on. With the help of DLSS, the 4070tiS should get around 80-100 fps at 1440p and 120 fps with DLSS FG on top of that, with better image quality than native TAA. That's hardly a bad experience.

Yeah, you have to have DlSS uptech on, i said that you said that, and we are talking about 1 game, that's why i chose C, no its not worth it outside a few titles. you won't change my mind or vote, but you enjoy your games.

 

[PandaOk]

I didn't write it, it's just the facts.

Why is it not the same as Raytracing when it's tracing rays against objects. If you can't explain it without an AI prompt, come on man! Even your own prompt with the section you highlighted at the bottom says it's primarily a Raytracing system.

 

[SHA]

I can't even tell it's a game on daytime ray-traced and the sunlight all over the place, I could vomit on that, it's no longer a game.

 

[CSJ]

We've come so far, from those days of pre-rendered videos that took days or weeks to render ray traced objects.
Now we're playing them real time, at near 100fps for example like cyberpunk with PT on.

Soon it'll be just a "option" you see like all other options but this one was a big perf hit due to the nature of how it works.
It'll evolve, become more efficient, more powerful hardware etc.

I wonder what's next, something post "PBR".

 

[bitbydeath]

Why is it not the same as Raytracing when it's tracing rays against objects. If you can't explain it without an AI prompt, come on man! Even your own prompt with the section you highlighted at the bottom says it's primarily a Raytracing system.

So does Path Tracing and I would not consider that the same either.

They all offer different outcomes and it is the outcomes that are more important than sharing some commonalities in how they function.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

Yeah, you have to have DlSS uptech on, i said that you said that, and we are talking about 1 game, that's why i chose C, no its not worth it outside a few titles. you won't change my mind or vote, but you enjoy your games.

On my PC I do not need to use DLSS in Cyberpunk because at "1440p native + RT Ultra" the game is perfectly playable even without it. I however prefer to play with DLSS because it does not make sense not to use it. 4K DLSS balance downsampled to 1440p (DLDSR feature) looks way better than 1440p TAA native. The image is sharper and more detailed and I still get better performance (67fps vs 72fps as you can see on my comparison screenshots).

However, if I want to play at high refresh rates, nothing beats the 1440p DLSS quality + FG combo. The image quality on the static image looks comparable to 1440p native TAA, but the performance and smoothness is on another level (67fps vs. 172fps is a pretty big difference). The game is ultra responsive at 172fps and motion quality is also a lot better compared to the native 1440p TAA, because on modern LCD/OLED displays (sample and hold displays) higher fps increase image sharpness during motion.

ULTRA RT 1440p Native TAA

1440p DLSS Quality + DLSS FG

More comparison screenshots.

Spoiler: cyberpunk screenshots

1440p native TAA + ultra RT

1440p Native TAA + RT shadows + RT reflections

1440p DLSS Quality + Ultra RT

1440p DLSS Quality + FG + Ultra RT

1440p Native TAA + Path Tracing

1440p DLSS Quality + Path Tracing

1440p DLSS Quality + FG + Path Tracing

1440p Native TAA + No Raytracing

1440p DLSS Quality + No Raytracing

1440p DLSS Quality + FG + No Raytracing

4K DLSS Balance + RT Ultra

4K DLSS Balance + DLSS FG + RT Ultra

 

[ap_puff]

Console players need not to apply…ray tracing on low powered devices is just stupid.

To be fair, even top end PCs are technically too weak to run real raytracing without a lot of shortcuts and tradeoffs (limited light bounces, low ray count that's run through upscaling and denoising to make it look non-awful). I think we need a fundamental shift in how raytracing/pathtracing is done but I have no idea what that would look like, it feels like you need an advanced math degree to even think about what that would look like

 

[Schmendrick]

So does Path Tracing and I would not consider that the same either.

They all offer different outcomes and it is the outcomes that are more important than sharing some commonalities in how they function.

So a texture is not a texture when it only has a 1080p resolution because we arbitrarily choose 4k as the standard right now.
So a car isn`t a car if the engine doesn`t have at least 500PS which we also just arbitrarily chose right here and now.
So a drawing isn`t a drawing if it`s not made by Picasso himself.
So a house isn`t a house if it`s not painted green.
So RT isn`t RT if it doesn`t specifically do at least full resolution per pixel tracing with exactly 1 billion and 1 bounces.
...
...
...

The stupid shit the internet spits out sometimes......

 

[bitbydeath]

So a texture is not a texture when it only has a 1080p resolution because we arbitrarily choose 4k as the standard right now.
So a car isn`t a car if the engine doesn`t have at least 500PS which we also just arbitrarily chose right here and now.
So a drawing isn`t a drawing if it`s not made by Picasso himself.
So a house isn`t a house if it`s not painted green.
So RT isn`t RT if it doesn`t specifically do at least full resolution per pixel tracing with exactly 1 billion and 1 bounces.
...
...
...

The stupid shit the internet spits out sometimes......

And yet you think Lumen, Ray-Tracing, Path Tracing, Ray Casting and Cone Tracing are exactly the same technologies.

 

[Mister Wolf]

So a texture is not a texture when it only has a 1080p resolution because we arbitrarily choose 4k as the standard right now.
So a car isn`t a car if the engine doesn`t have at least 500PS which we also just arbitrarily chose right here and now.
So a drawing isn`t a drawing if it`s not made by Picasso himself.
So a house isn`t a house if it`s not painted green.
So RT isn`t RT if it doesn`t specifically do at least full resolution per pixel tracing with exactly 1 billion and 1 bounces.
...
...
...

The stupid shit the internet spits out sometimes......

There is no helping bitbydeath. The most we can hope is that he/she doesn't spread this misinformation to others.

 

[Schmendrick]

And yet you think Lumen, Ray-Tracing, Path Tracing, Ray Casting and Cone Tracing are exactly the same technologies.

I doubt it can get any dumber than pretending to not understand the principle of subcategories and derivations....
But I'm sure you'll try.

 

[bitbydeath]

I doubt it can get any dumber than pretending to not understand the principle of subcategories and derivations....
But I'm sure you'll try.

Sounds like you're beginning to roll back from your argument. Keep reading!

 

[Schmendrick]

Sounds like you're beginning to roll back from your argument. Keep reading!

Do you wear the clown mask only over the day or do you sleep with it to really get into the role?

 

[bitbydeath]

Do you wear the clown mask only over the day or do you sleep with it to really get into the role?

Haha, I believe in you champ.
Keep reading you will understand the differences soon enough.

 

[Schmendrick]

Haha, I believe in you champ.
Keep reading you will understand the differences soon enough.

I guess I'll stop feeding the troll now. Have fun under your bridge.

 

[SHA]

 

[Ironman_Bad]

One of the greatest scenes in comedic history

 

[CashPrizes]

I have a 4090, and it seems like nearly every single game I can go max settings + 4k and have very smooth performance, maybe not 120fps but definitely 60. But as soon as I turn Raytracing on there is slight stutter in some titles (Diablo IV, Resident Evil 4 Remake) or incredibly poor performance (Star Wars Outlaws, Avatar).

Even in the slight performance hits, it doesn't seem worth it. Yeah Diablo looks a little moodier with RTX on, but I would rather have full texture detail and special effects and 4k with no frame drops. I haven't played Cyberpunk in a few years and hear that really utilizes RTX the best, so maybe in that case it will be worth it.

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

Here's my comparison to show how scalable RT is, since people usually compare raster performance with full RT / PT settings and as if there were nothing in between.

This is Cyberpunk without RT. Water reflections look like crap regardless of SSR settings.

The only way to improve water rendering in this game is by using RT/PT. With PT the water finally looks good, but of course Path Tracing costs a lot of frames (52%).

However, people can use lower RT settings (psycho RT) that still look much better compared to raster and the RT cost is reduced to 32%.

With only RT shadows and reflections, the performance is only 20% worse compared to raster and the game still looks much better.

And now let's look at shadows quality.

Raster / no RT

Path Tracing 58% performance cost.

Ultra RT 38% performance cost.

RT shadows + reflections 27% performance cost

As my screenshots clearly shows, even with low/medium RT settings the game looks way better than raster and RT performance cost isnt that big at this point. Sometimes SSR alone cost more performance, for example SSR implementation in the witcher 3. On my old GTX1080 I had 70fps with low SSR and 30fps with high SSR, that was 130% relative difference. Not even RT tanks so much performance on my current GPU while offering much better visuals.

From my perspective, as long as you have a modern PC with fast GPU, playing with RT improves gaming experience. Some people in this thread want to tell me they don't care about RT, but that's like saying they don't care about the graphics. If people really didn't care about the graphics, we'd still be playing NES or PSX games, because what's the point of buying newer game platforms if you don't care about the graphics?

I have a 4090, and it seems like nearly every single game I can go max settings + 4k and have very smooth performance, maybe not 120fps but definitely 60. But as soon as I turn Raytracing on there is slight stutter in some titles (Diablo IV, Resident Evil 4 Remake) or incredibly poor performance (Star Wars Outlaws, Avatar).

Even in the slight performance hits, it doesn't seem worth it. Yeah Diablo looks a little moodier with RTX on, but I would rather have full texture detail and special effects and 4k with no frame drops. I haven't played Cyberpunk in a few years and hear that really utilizes RTX the best, so maybe in that case it will be worth it.

If you play at 4K native and refuse to use DLSS, even the RTX4090 will not be able to run the most demanding RT games smoothly. Star Wars Outlaws is probably the most un-optimized RT game out there, because it's using experimental RTXDI feature that wasnt implemented well. In one second, the RTX4090 can have 45 fps, and when you take a step forward, the fps suddenly drops to 20 fps for unknown reason. Without RTXDI, "just" with ultra RT at 4K DLSSQ + FG, the RTX4090 is able to run this game at round 80-100fps, and that's not a bad experience at all. BTW. you cant even turn off RT in this game, you can only lower RT settings, so good luck playing this game without RT.

As for the RE4 remake, the game becomes a CPU bottleneck with RT, and if the CPU limits your framerate, you may see stuttering. With a reasonable fps cap, the game runs without stuttering with RT, at least I had no problems playing the game at 120fps lock on my 7800X3D.

 

[winjer]

 

[winjer]

 

[Gaiff]

Make a dedicated thread, please. This needs to be discussed independently.

 

[ikbalCO]

When it comes to lighting, illumination and shadows; kinda, yes.

But the reflections and other properties of it are pretty much always unnecessary and overdrawn.

Overall, i dont think putting photo realism over art style never works and like many things it depends on the developers talents on how to use it.

 

[Trilobit]

Reflection is dimmed because this TV have a coating to dimm the reflections, but reflection itself is razor sharp. Real puddle will not dim reflections to such degree.

I never thought I'd see the day when there was gatekeeping for puddles.

 

[FalconPunch]

When it comes to lighting, illumination and shadows; kinda, yes.

But the reflections and other properties of it are pretty much always unnecessary and overdrawn.

Overall, i dont think putting photo realism over art style never works and like many things it depends on the developers talents on how to use it.

Using rt for reflections is a waste imo. Better to use high quality ssr with good cube maps or planar reflections.

 

[Gaiff]

Better to use high quality ssr with good cube maps