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[Hero]

For me Sonic's level design wins over any 2D mario.

Mario: lineal "just walk to the right"

Sonic: 3 ways (up, mid, down), diferent layers with diferent hazards, going from left to right, from right to left, up, down, hidden things across the level (emeralds, bonus rings)

This is the most disingenuous comparison I have seen in a while.

 

[BstnRich]

Sonic is dead.

It's time to move on.

In all seriousness, we probably could have seen a better character in a better game from the Sega team in the time they've spent making Sonic games.

 

[hotcyder]

In all seriousness, we probably could have seen a better character in a better game from the Sega team in the time they've spent making Sonic games.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

I had a Genesis growing up and absolutely loved Sonic, but SMW was also fantastic. Two completely different games though. SMW is my 2nd fav mario game of all time behind Mario 64. I also think later Sonic games were even better than the first Sonic. So whynotboth.gif

 

[chemicals]

Sonic 1-3 are fun games, but Super Mario World is a masterpiece. I'd even go as far as to say that Super Mario 2 and 3 are also better than any Sonic game. Maybe even Super Mario 1.

 

[dark10x]

Super Mario World is my favorite platformer of all time.

...but Sonic 2 sits just behind it. I regard them both as classics though Mario has the edge for me.

 

[jcjimher]

I would love to meet/know someone who truly has legit reasons why they believe Sonic one is better than Super Mario World.

I grew up with sega Genesis and I loved Sonic, but I knew back then that SMW was/is the better game in terms of gameplay,control, replay value,sound,graphics (the overall package ) I know some stuff is subjective, but let's put that aside and focus on the overall game

You are asking us for reasons in your first paragraph. Then on the second you state your preference without giving any reason. You only say "you knew back then".

 

[PumpkinPie]

I don't think any Sonic game nailed controls like Mario did. All the Genesis games had that awful floatiness and initial sluggishness until you were up to speed. Mario controls are the epitome of 2D controls, never bettered.

 

[Jack The Nipper]

Super Mario World is my favorite platformer of all time.

...but Sonic 2 sits just behind it. I regard them both as classics though Mario has the edge for me.

As a huge sonic fan from the original time when it comes to design in levels, gameplay and movements I must say that there is not much in a discussion to say which is better

The pure design mechanics in mario just work better. Sonic is good but the design in control and movement just makes less sense for Gameplay. Level design is more sporadic in the good to bad range as well.

Mario functions very well as a run, jump, dodge, catch and kick timing gameplay. With the bouncing and movement off heads and tons of additives to the solid core

You can argue that sonic has a lot of this but with its mix of faster movement, and less control in tight situations more often, it's easy to see which game is better in many ways. Enemies are more memorable as well, as they have stuck to them and work on a more known bases. We all know the ladybug and it's great but it's no Koopa troopa.

My younger self may have sided with sonic but looking at pure gameplay and design there is no contest. Mario is just a better game.


In many ways the slow levels in sonic ended up better like marbel and star light.

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

Comparing Sonic 1 to Mario World is like comparing Mario 1 to Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

I think it's fair to draw these comparisons:
Sonic 1 -> Mario 1 (Getting it started, kinda rough)
Sonic CD -> Mario USA (Weird not-sequel that does its own thing)
Sonic 2 -> Mario 3 (Perfecting the first game)
Sonic 3 & Knuckles -> Super Mario World (Going to a level even further beyond super saiyan)

I agree

For me S3&K is the best platform game of that generation

 

[Chû Totoro]

That title is pure bait my dude.

I don't think those kind of people exist unless they never played SMW.

This. Even if "opinions" sometime it's like people can't understand when something is acclaimed by a big big majority of the critique both back then and now... and then it's like they want to see people argue on things that can't be proven so... GAF.

 

[jcjimher]

I'll give you what you ask, OP, some aspects where Sonic is better and are pretty objective/non-debatable:

• Higher resolution / field of view (320 x 224 vs 256 x 224)
• More scroll layers
• More frames of animation in the main character and, specially, in the backgrounds.
• Bigger sized sprites on average
• Equally polished, but more ambitious physics (with abundance of slopes of varying degrees, momentum gameplay, loops, broader ranges of speed, etc.)
• More paths in the levels.
• A more forgiving death-system (vs the one-hit or two-hit death of SMW)
• That SEEEEEGAAAAAA sample (truly felt next-gen then )

That doesn't make it an overall better game than SMW (some of the Genesis sequels are IMO), but are points to acknowledge.

 

[Toxi]

No Sonic game ever came close to holding a candle to SMW, level design alone trounces the entirety of the Sonic serie. Those who say otherwise either never played SMW, dont understand what level design actually is or grew up with a vastly inferior saga thinking they were such amazing games, which is not their fault. My opinion

Level design comparison between Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Super Mario World is a joke. The enormous level layouts in Sonic 3 and Knuckles promote an immense amount of replayability unlike anything seen in Mario (and to be fair, unlike most levels from Sonic 1 and 2).

You can say you prefer how Mario controls or whatnot, but there is absolutely no way the level design of Super Mario World "trounces" Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

 

[andymcc]

This. Even if "opinions" sometime it's like people can't understand when something is acclaimed by a big big majority of the critique both back then and now... and then it's like they want to see people argue on things that can't be proven so... GAF.

Sonic 1 was reviewed just about as well as SMW on release.

 

[PSqueak]

No, No, No, Yes.

 

[Nepenthe]

I've played neither Sonic 1 nor SMW in years, so I couldn't really begin to compare them on any meaningful level.

However, the idea that graphically SMW is better than Sonic 1 is fucking laughable. I would also argue Sonic 1 has a stronger and catchier soundtrack.

 

[TheDinoman]

Sonic is dead.

It's time to move on.

Yeah, not like this game isn't coming out.

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

Sonic is dead.

It's time to move on.

In all seriousness, we probably could have seen a better character in a better game from the Sega team in the time they've spent making Sonic games.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Kind of off-topic, but comparing any game to Sonic 3 & Knuckles has always been unfair. Those are two games. Yes, I know they were originally meant to be one game. Yes, I know you can lock-on both titles to create one super adventure. But Sega released them separately, as two full-priced titles. They aren't two games and any attempts to treat them as such, particularly to compare them directly to a single game, doesn't work.

I do agree that if they were released as a single title back in 1994, it would have been one of the most impressive games Sega had ever released. But I think how these two games treated by Sega shows how differently each company (Nintendo and Sega) handled their respective mascots.

Ok, back to the topic at hand.

 

[petran79]

SNES games in general felt like having more options, being better polished and presented over their NES counterparts, but sometimes they did lack that raw gameplay element found in their NES arcade roots. Sega had the advantage on this due to their popular arcade ports. Nintendo had abandoned arcades by the late 80s.
Castlevania Bloodlines on the Genesis felt like a frantic arcade platformer vs the slower paced Castlevania IV. Same for Genesis Batman vs the better presented but slower SNES version. Same for Mario vs Sonic.

Though I'd preferred a thread comparing the overlooked SMS Sonic 1 against SMB3. I think 8-bit version of Sonic is better than the 16-bit version and closer to NES Mario when it comes to true platforming. More difficult than any Mario game too if you want the true ending.

Growing up in Scandinavia I was sure Nintendo were the undisputed winners in Europe as they had their own magazines, Mario was everywhere and most toy stores had a larger selection of NES games than what they had for my beloved Master System.

My mind was blown when I, as an adult, realized Sega had stomped Nintendo in Europe during both of those gens.

Depends on the country really. Eg in Greece Nintendo did not release the NES at all. Went straight to Gameboy and SNES instead. Sega with their Megadrive and arcades had a huge advantage there.

Also in Europe market was more fragmented. Microcomputers counted for a significant portion of the players, also due to cheaper or easier to copy games. Eg Amiga 500 outsold the Mega Drive by a margin in Germany. Also because arcades in that country were nowhere near as prolific, those computers had the best arcade ports in comparison.

But if you were elementary school kid, Nintendo was everything. Teens and up preferred computers.

 

[Toxi]

Kind of off-topic, but comparing any game to Sonic 3 & Knuckles has always been unfair. Those are two games. Yes, I know they were originally meant to be one game. Yes, I know you can lock-on both titles to create one super adventure. But Sega released them separately, as two full-priced titles. They aren't two games and any attempts to treat them as such, particularly to compare them directly to a single game, doesn't work.

I do agree that if they were released as a single title back in 1994, it would have been one of the most impressive games Sega had ever released. But I think how these two games treated by Sega shows how differently each company (Nintendo and Sega) handled their respective mascots.

Ok, back to the topic at hand.

The thing is, separating the 2 games doesn't really impact their average quality, only their quantity of content.

And nowadays, the games are almost always combined anyway. People aren't generally playing Sonic on the Genesis and Mario on the Super Nintendo.

 

[Crayolan]

Kind of off-topic, but comparing any game to Sonic 3 & Knuckles has always been unfair. Those are two games. Yes, I know they were originally meant to be one game. Yes, I know you can lock-on both titles to create one super adventure. But Sega released them separately, as two full-priced titles. They aren't two games and any attempts to treat them as such, particularly to compare them directly to a single game, doesn't work.

I do agree that if they were released as a single title back in 1994, it would have been one of the most impressive games Sega had ever released.

Ok, back to the topic at hand.

In 2017, almost every version of the game you can access allows you to play the two as one single game. Pretending like it's still the 90s where you needed to buy both games separately is pointless.

 

[oneida]

In all seriousness, we probably could have seen a better character in a better game from the Sega team in the time they've spent making Sonic games.

where the hell have you been?

 

[OrbitalBeard]

In 2017, almost every version of the game you can access allows you to play the two as one single game. Pretending like it's still the 90s where you needed to buy both games separately is pointless.

There are still cases where this is not true, such as XBLA. And the Genesis Collection on PS3/360 doesn't even let you lock-on the two titles.

They're two separate games. If Nintendo decides to release a collection with Galaxy 1 and 2, they don't suddenly become one game.

 

[oneida]

There are still cases where this is not true, such as XBLA. And the Genesis Collection on PS3/360 doesn't even let you lock-on the two titles.

They're two separate games. If Nintendo decides to release a collection with Galaxy 1 and 2, they don't suddenly become one game.

this is a terrible comparison because the galaxy games don't physically lock onto one another to create a continuous experience

 

[Guess Who]

Kind of off-topic, but comparing any game to Sonic 3 & Knuckles has always been unfair. Those are two games. Yes, I know they were originally meant to be one game. Yes, I know you can lock-on both titles to create one super adventure. But Sega released them separately, as two full-priced titles. They aren't two games and any attempts to treat them as such, particularly to compare them directly to a single game, doesn't work.

I do agree that if they were released as a single title back in 1994, it would have been one of the most impressive games Sega had ever released. But I think how these two games treated by Sega shows how differently each company (Nintendo and Sega) handled their respective mascots.

Ok, back to the topic at hand.

They are both two separate games and one continuous game when you lock them on. Basically no other game ever has done this so it's silly to try to box it in as one thing or another.

The closest comparison would be something like an episodic game these days, where you can buy individual episodes separately, but people consider all the episodes together to be one cohesive "game". Comparing it to something like a collection of multiple distinct games (like All-Stars, in the post below me) is super disingenuous.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

In 2017, almost every version of the game you can access allows you to play the two as one single game. Pretending like it's still the 90s where you needed to buy both games separately is pointless.

Mario 1 - World are all one game!

 

[oneida]

Mario 1 - World are all one game!

someone has never played S3&K

 

[OrbitalBeard]

this is a terrible comparison because the galaxy games don't physically lock onto one another to create a continuous experience

I agree it is kind of a dumb comparison. But calling Sonic 3 & Knuckles a single game is kind of dumb too, because they're not. I get that they were originally meant to be and Sega used that to create a really cool lock-on feature, but they're still two separate titles.

Saying S3&K is better than X game isn't a fair comparison at all and it never will be. The games released eight and a half months apart.

 

[a916]

You go fast, the game is unplayable.

You go slow, you aren't playing Sonic.

The game is broken from conception.

This, this is what breaks all Sonic games for me.

Super Mario World is a better crafted game that holds up so much better. It's a testament to how well of a game it really was.

 

[Nepenthe]

You go fast, the game is unplayable.

You go slow, you aren't playing Sonic.

The game is broken from conception.

It amazes me every single time I see this sentiment that people think the point of the OG Sonic games was to go fast without any interruption whatsoever, as if it's an endless runner. It's like basic game design philosophy just goes right out the window.

 

[Toxi]

You go fast, the game is unplayable.

You go slow, you aren't playing Sonic.

The game is broken from conception.

Continuous speed in Sonic is a reward for skill and experience. The games are made to be replayed, especially the large multi-tiered levels that are the high points of the series.

This is also why Sonic 1 kinda sucks. Marble Zone and the like forcibly stop you in a way independent of skill and are a chore to replay due to their simple layout.

 

[Guess Who]

Continuous speed in Sonic is a reward for skill and experience. The games are made to be replayed, especially the large multi-tiered levels that are the high points of the series.

I think a lot of people expect Sonic levels to be like Mario. Mario stages are a start-to-finish obstacle course. You play it once, and then you know how to beat it. Sonic stages are designed to be replayed and time attacked, featuring multiple interweaving routes you have to find the best path through. Things that stop you dead the first time through are things you will know how to avoid and deal with on replays.

Also agreed on Sonic 1: that game did have levels like Marble Zone that follow a more traditional platformer design philosophy and it is worse for it.

 

[Nepenthe]

I think a lot of people expect Sonic levels to be like Mario.

Maybe they should stop doing that.

 

[andymcc]

I agree it is kind of a dumb comparison. But calling Sonic 3 & Knuckles a single game is kind of dumb too, because they're not. I get that they were originally meant to be and Sega used that to create a really cool lock-on feature, but they're still two separate titles.

Saying S3&K is better than X game isn't a fair comparison at all and it never will be. The games released eight and a half months apart.

You can only unlock Hyper Sonic in S3&K. The title screen literally calls it Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Sega almost released it as a standalone game (not requiring the individual carts) AFTER the fact too.

 

[Crayolan]

There are still cases where this is not true, such as XBLA. And the Genesis Collection on PS3/360 doesn't even let you lock-on the two titles.

They're two separate games. If Nintendo decides to release a collection with Galaxy 1 and 2, they don't suddenly become one game.

Mario 1 - World are all one game!

Not really the best comparison, compilations don't become singular experiences in the way S3&K do.

It's a weird case though and I don't think you can compare it to other games easily.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

It's a weird case though and I don't think you can compare it to other games easily.

This is really what I'm getting at. Comparing S3&K to other games doesn't work.

And as a single game that was changed to two mid-way through development, it becomes a flawed experience when brought back together, as the game has two distinct difficulty curves.

Sega really should have delayed the entire project until the end of 1994. It would have allowed them to create Sonic's magnum opus.

 

[Toxi]

Maybe they should stop doing that.

It's telling that I constantly see criticisms of platformers for not playing like Mario on this forum, but rarely the other way around.

 

[andymcc]

This is really what I'm getting at. Comparing S3&K to other games doesn't work.

And as a single game that was changed to two mid-way through development, it becomes a flawed experience when brought back together, as the game has two distinct difficulty curves.

Sega really should have delayed the entire project until the end of 1994. It would have allowed them to create Sonic's magnum opus.

I'm not even sure if it changed "midway" through development as there are an incredible amount of S&K assets in Sonic 3.

Edit: reading now, it was split befote beta phase! Wow!

 

[Elfforkusu]

I agree it is kind of a dumb comparison. But calling Sonic 3 & Knuckles a single game is kind of dumb too, because they're not. I get that they were originally meant to be and Sega used that to create a really cool lock-on feature, but they're still two separate titles.

Saying S3&K is better than X game isn't a fair comparison at all and it never will be. The games released eight and a half months apart.

How do you feel about dlc and expansion packs? Are they different games? Is the Witcher 3 dlc a different game, or does it make Witcher 3 a better game?

In contemporary terms, that's what s&k is. The other stuff it has (a standalone mode, bonus stages, knuckles in sonic 2) are secondary features that are a sign of a time before publishers realized they didn't need to apologize to consumers for (effing them over and) selling them an incomplete game.

 

[Guess Who]

I'm not even sure if it changed "midway" through development as there are an incredible amount of S&K assets in Sonic 3.

Even after the decision was made to sell the two parts of the game separately, they were developed in tandem as one cohesive thing and there were still plans to eventually sell them as one large game (called "Sonic 3 Limited Edition", which eventually was scrapped in favor of only doing lock-on). There are multiple builds of "Sonic 3C" from months after Sonic 3 standalone shipped where they are still being made as one game.

 

[andymcc]

Even after the decision was made to sell the two parts of the game separately, they were developed in tandem as one cohesive thing and there were still plans to eventually sell them as one large game (called "Sonic 3 Limited Edition", which eventually was scrapped in favor of lock-on). There are multiple builds of "Sonic 3C" from months after Sonic 3 standalone shipped where they are still being made as one game.

I mentioned some of this in the post above the one you quoted!

They should have held the game for Christmas 1994.

 

[Triforce141]

Sonic 3&K > Super Mario World > Sonic 1 > Sonic 2

That's my preference

 

[VRMN]

There are still cases where this is not true, such as XBLA. And the Genesis Collection on PS3/360 doesn't even let you lock-on the two titles.

The XBLA version of S&K detects ownership of S3 and unlocks S3&K. Don't know about collection, but the Sonic collection on Xbox and PS2 definitely had the combined version as an unlock. S3&K is how the game is intended to be played. Period.

It's also the best platformer of all time.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

How do you feel about dlc and expansion packs? Are they different games? Is the Witcher 3 dlc a different game, or does it make Witcher 3 a better game?

In contemporary terms, that's what s&k is. The other stuff it has (a standalone mode, bonus stages, knuckles in sonic 2) are secondary features that are a sign of a time before publishers realized they didn't need to apologize to consumers for (effing them over and) selling them an incomplete game.

If we're going to compare a game from 1994 to games from the modern era, S&K would most closely resemble a full-priced standalone expansion. People don't consider The Old Blood to be a part of The New Order or Death of the Outsider a part of Dishonored 2.

But the lock-on feature is obviously quite unique. That still doesn't make comparing S3&K to other single games a fair exercise.

But I'll be the first to admit that at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. I just find it interesting.

The XBLA version of S&K detects ownership of S3 and unlocks S3&K. Don't know about collection, but the Sonic collection on Xbox and PS2 definitely had the combined version as an unlock. S3&K is how the game is intended to be played. Period.

It's also the best platformer of all time.

If it's how it was intended to be played, it would have released as one package in 1994 and I wouldn't have to purchase two games on XBLA. S3&K is one way to play these two games.

The fact that "the best platformer of all time" is actually two separate titles is kind of a foreshadowing of how bad Sega has been at managing the Sonic brand.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Sonic 1-3 are fun games, but Super Mario World is a masterpiece. I'd even go as far as to say that Super Mario 2 and 3 are also better than any Sonic game. Maybe even Super Mario 1.

You're hilarious.

 

[Kolibri]

Peach could have Amy in a fight.

 

[VRMN]

If it's how it was intended to be played, it would have released as one package in 1994 and I wouldn't have to purchase two games on XBLA. S3&K is one way to play these two games.

It was released the way it was in 1994 because the cart couldn't contain the entire game as intended. S&K as standalone also offers functionality with Sonic 2 and Sonic 1 that is replicated in the XBLA release. In addition, Sonic 3 standalone has a final boss fight not seen in the Sonic campaign in S3&K, in addition to music changes and other reasons Sonic fans would like to have Sonic 3 standalone available to them.

There are reasons why the halves were sold separately and I would guess the way the game is remembered keeps them from removing that part of its identity. But they are two halves of the same game.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

It was released the way it was in 1994 because the cart couldn't contain the entire game as intended. S&K as standalone also offers functionality with Sonic 2 and Sonic 1 that is replicated in the XBLA release. In addition, Sonic 3 standalone has a final boss fight not seen in the Sonic campaign in S3&K, in addition to music changes and other reasons Sonic fans would like to have Sonic 3 standalone available to them.

There are reasons why the halves were sold separately and I would guess the way the game is remembered keeps them from removing that part of its identity. But they are two halves of the same game.

Sega could easily release Sonic 3 + Knuckles as a single package and allow players to choose how they want to play these games in an options menu. The fact that they continue to sell the games separately in most cases shows that they're two separate titles. It's unfortunate that Sega didn't give their team the time they needed to create a single game, but them's the facts.

Sega was all about churning out as much Sonic product as they could in a short period of time during that era, so I'm not surprised they forced two separate games out of one.

 

[Lord British]

Yeah, I prefer Sonic 1, but they're both 10/10s. I just prefer that more freewheeling non-linear "blow through" kind of game. They don't really compare though. Mario's a platforming obstacle course, Sonic's a roller coaster.