Stinging is injuring now ?
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Is spanking kids OK or wrong?
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Stinging is injuring now ?
That's not clear at all, where did I say that?
Yes, the intent says it all.
CreepingFear
Member
I've seen this thread too many times, anti-spanking gaf. You can't reason with pro-spanking gaf. Give up now and get out before they spank you, unless you're into that kind of thing.
Why were that way to begin with? Were they born as little terrors?
On the football field or in the bedroom.
In what situations as an adult is it ok to have other people sit in a corner in timeout?
Kids aren't adults and the parent child relationship is unique to any other relationship.
But again, let me reiterate, i think spanking is highly questionable, I just think a moderate open hand slap on the butt is not very damaging.
It's really true.
No, you said the pain does.
I'm cool with a kid getting a few smacks on the butt with a wooden spoon or open palm. Had a fair bit of that as a kid, and I never lived in fear of my parents (or any other ridiculous permutation of that concept), nor did it train me to believe that violence is a solution to problems.
As a kid I knew my parents loved me, so the only message I got from getting spanked was that I'd done something wrong. Of course, most time I already knew that anyway, and a part of me probably figured the punishment was justified.
I wouldn't say it's the only way to discipline kids, or the best. I also wouldn't ever presume to tell anyone they should use it on their own children. It can work, though.
As a kid I knew my parents loved me, so the only message I got from getting spanked was that I'd done something wrong. Of course, most time I already knew that anyway, and a part of me probably figured the punishment was justified.
I wouldn't say it's the only way to discipline kids, or the best. I also wouldn't ever presume to tell anyone they should use it on their own children. It can work, though.
Escape Goat
Member
Too many Pollyannas and hippies here on GAF. The militant wing of the liberal GAF machine.
Same attitude that leads to spankjng in the first place. "Nothing else I can do, better get violent."
ShironRedshift
Member
Pretty much. Well, I suppose it's not exactly that I see it as wrong per se, but just unnecessary and not really tackling the actual root problem. It just seems to be an emotional, instinctual reaction and an attempt to take the easy way out and hoping that things will just magically take care of themselves instead of taking the time to think about what the problem might me, discussing the issue with the child, and coming up with a solution to the problem together, depending upon what the problem is and what approach would help the kid best to tackle that problem. Of course, you can combine spanking with that, but spanking seems an unnecessary, extra step at that point--either they understand, and you're good, or they don't get it, and you need to change and mold and scaffold your approach until you can get through.
But the real core problem with spanking like I said is that it's just not tackling whatever the actual root problem itself is (and if you are tackling the root problem, spanking then becomes unnecessary at that point). Like, in the case of not studying or doing homework, the problem is that spanking them isn't going to give them an actual intrinsic motivation to do their homework. Sure, they might pretend to do it when you're there or whatever, but that's just the thing--that's more than likely to just be an act to just avoid getting punished, since they still don't actually want to do the work and all you're adding is just an avoidance of punishment on top of that.
Instead, you have to give them a reason that makes them want to do the work regardless of whether you're there or not and make it intrinsically rewarding for them, like relating it to their dreams and saying something to the effect of yes, homework sucks, but that's only in the short term. As long as you do your homework, you'll be able to fulfill you dream of being x career and being able to have all that money you want and whatever and once you're there, you'll be happy and those long nights of doing homework will just be a blur, whereas if you don't do it you won't have any chance of getting that job and you definitely won't be happy.
Or alternatively, especially in classes like English, appealing to their autonomy/self-efficacy and getting them to think of their assignments as less work and more an opportunity to express their creativity to the class and proving to themselves that they can be creative as well. Or if it's an opinion paper, than focus less on that being an assignment and more of an opportunity to express their feelings on a topic and give those feelings a voice. And stuff like that.
If that's done, then spanking just becomes unnecessary at that point. And even if it's not working, spanking still isn't getting to the core problem and doesn't change the fact that they still don't want to do whatever just for its own sake, and so is quite likely to be an ineffective or temporary solution. I just don't see what spanking actually adds to that to make it effective or necessary at all.
Worked on me, I think it depends on culture/ethnicity. I'll say, most of the people I knew who were never physically disciplined in any sense, were some of the "worst" teens and people I knew.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI
Everyone needs to watch this Russell Peters video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI
Everyone needs to watch this Russell Peters video.
So what do you think the resolution is? She she have beaten more respect into him previously? Because that's the only way to get someone to take you seriously. Physical harm.
entremet
Member
Yes basically. Some kids are just evil.
/jk
No idea. They were always out of control. They settled down in their teen years.
I've moved towards "it's always wrong" over time.
I think it's going to be generally uncontroversial that other punishments should be preferred when they accomplish the same goals. So an important question is: What goals can be achieved by spanking but not by other methods?
The main thing that comes to mind is that corporal punishment is immediate. With other disciplinary methods you can get into situations where all you're doing is tacking on punishments sometime in the future - if a kid is already not allowed TV for a week, for example, it's probably not terribly effective to threaten to extend the ban, and you can get into situations where the kid is reacting to the perceived unfairness of a punishment by ceasing to care about further time being added. In general it's possible to have a situation where a child feels so punished already that they just don't care about more punishment which isn't having an immediate impact on them. Corporal punishment can be directly linked to a particular instance of misbehavior and in such a way that the child has a lot of reason to stop misbehaving.
Relatedly, if deployed rarely there's an "I'm really serious" shock value to it, although this presumably comes along with a breach of trust.
I think it's going to be hard to justify for something like bad grades. The point should be to get through to a child that is not responding rationally or to gentler methods, not to make your child fear you. There are pretty natural ways of punishing children for not studying enough or of forcing children to study that don't involve scaring them into it.
I think it's going to be generally uncontroversial that other punishments should be preferred when they accomplish the same goals. So an important question is: What goals can be achieved by spanking but not by other methods?
The main thing that comes to mind is that corporal punishment is immediate. With other disciplinary methods you can get into situations where all you're doing is tacking on punishments sometime in the future - if a kid is already not allowed TV for a week, for example, it's probably not terribly effective to threaten to extend the ban, and you can get into situations where the kid is reacting to the perceived unfairness of a punishment by ceasing to care about further time being added. In general it's possible to have a situation where a child feels so punished already that they just don't care about more punishment which isn't having an immediate impact on them. Corporal punishment can be directly linked to a particular instance of misbehavior and in such a way that the child has a lot of reason to stop misbehaving.
Relatedly, if deployed rarely there's an "I'm really serious" shock value to it, although this presumably comes along with a breach of trust.
I think it's going to be hard to justify for something like bad grades. The point should be to get through to a child that is not responding rationally or to gentler methods, not to make your child fear you. There are pretty natural ways of punishing children for not studying enough or of forcing children to study that don't involve scaring them into it.
Are you really going to play stupid games with me? You hit a kid. You intend to inflict pain. You inflict pain by injuring them. Red marks? Injury.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
Fear may be what keeps you from robbing a bank. The law uses fear to keep people in line.
CreepingFear
Member
People get emotional about this topic. A criticism of spanking is an assault on their family. They can criticize their family, but a stranger better not.
Jail and prison are forms of punishment that use confinement.
The child is completely dependent upon the adult. The parent has all the power. How does that make it justified to physically assault someone? How is it "right" when the victim cannot defend themselves due to a power gap? And when you say "it's not assault", explain what would happen if you hit a nonconsenting adult.
Lol.
I mean, if you want to get silly you can bring up instances of women slapping men when the men do something vulgar or rude to them in bars. That is mostly acceptable and results in the man often feeling quite embarrassed, much more embarrassed than they are physically hurt.
But again, I am getting caught up arguing for something I think is probably ineffective and pointless, and almost impossible to do without doing out of anger.
I just don't think light spankings are that big of a problem, even if they are ineffective.
Oh I know, but I don't have a problem telling them that family tradition is fucked up.
yep. i think being disciplined made me a much more humble person today. i wont abuse my children, but they will be spanked.
Woah! That's fucking gnarly.
No, I intend to inflict swift surprise, not pain. I'm not sure how badly you were spanked as a child but I was never injured enough that I was red. The only thing injured was that I knew at that instance my parents were really upset with me and I didn't like that.
I think the best thing to do is buy different types of belts. When a kid does something warranting a spanking, you allow them to choose which belt to discipline them with.
That way you teach them two valuable life lessons at the same time:
1- How democracy really works.
2- The result of their misbehavior.
That way you teach them two valuable life lessons at the same time:
1- How democracy really works.
2- The result of their misbehavior.
You said that she was all talk and didn't respond when the child got violent. So would you advocate escalating the situation where violence is met with more violence?
Resolution after that? I honestly don't know, I'd have been suplexed to hell and back for trying to strike my parents, then again I wouldn't have tried it in the first place. I'm 31, I don't even curse in front of them. What do you think she should have done with a kid that keeps slapping the shit out of her and won't listen otherwise? Take away TV and video games? Put him in the corner? Confine him to his bedroom?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHj9n34PQ0s
Well considering the kid slapped her twice in my presence and still wouldn't listen, yes whoop his ass. But that goes against the first point that you were trying to make about striking a kid that doesn't fight back. So I'm not sure if you're trying to pull a strawman to prove some other point or if you're referencing this example directly.
Spanking a kid over grades seems insane to me. The only times I was ever disciplined that way was when I was actively disobeying one of my parents, i.e. "Put that down. Put that down, NOW. Put that down or you'll get the wooden spoon. Last chance. Spankin' time *whack*."
If you're telling your child that if they don't get good grades they'll be spanked, you're seeding the idea in their mind and letting it fester over time. That really is creating a sense of fear, IMO.
entremet
Member
Parenting is a very personal thing. I'm not pro spanking at all, but don't think spanking is a failure in parenting when done within limits. And moreover, not everyone gets little angels as well.
And if this doesn't work take away privalages. My wife and I took out the tv from kids room for being bad. When he still didn't listen, we sold the tv. Kid is now working extra hard to get a tv.
Bull. Shit. If you wanted to just surprise the kid, a snap of the fingers or a clap in front of their face would be just as effective. Kids cry when spanked. The idea is to inflict pain, period.
I disagree. Period.
It really does come down to this I think. The two sides just have a fundamental disagreement.
Twilight Gap
Member
Kids also cry when they don't get what they want. And they throw tantrums. And this often happens in public.
What's the best way to deal with these kids? Again, this is an open question assuming neither spanking nor rational talking will work.
Etrian Oddity
Member
/thread
Well I obviously don't know the situation with your cousins but when kids act out like that it's usually not because they were just born that way. Like I said, sometimes parents need to look at themselves and not their kids in these situations.
Already went through that. Read the thread.
Nah. People who spank rank up there with those who withhold vaccines. Crazies without a clue.
True man, and as I said I will probably never use it.
I will say this though. If my child was doing something incredibly dangerous that could cause them harm, I might consider it. If a spank that stings for 10 seconds will prevent my kid from doing something that might harm them permanently I think that's a worthwhile trade up.
Trent Strong
Banned
Spanking does a lot more harm than good.
entremet
Member
It seems it's always black or white on the Internet.
Real life is more nuanced than that.
I think it really depends on the situation, and generally you shouldn't spank your kid but in circumstances where other disciplinary actions aren't getting through to them then it can be reasonable.
I got hit maybe 3 or 4 times in the entirety of my childhood, and every single time I sure as hell deserved it.
I got hit maybe 3 or 4 times in the entirety of my childhood, and every single time I sure as hell deserved it.
I don't see why I need to have a nuanced view of either subject. There is no excuse for spankjng and no excuse to not give a child vaccines. It isn't really something that needs more than what 'is'. It's not like I'm gonna to take those who reject evolution seriously either. Should I?
What about if the family is poor? Time is money and when you are better off, that means you have more time to spend speaking to kids about behavior. When a family is poor, they have to spend more time working for money and don't usually have the time to talk to kids. Is it acceptable then?
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