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[JohnsonUT]

This notion that if you do "A...B...C" and will have a perfectly functioning adult in 18 years is silly. You can do everything right, never hit him and he grows up to be a spoiled douche in his mid twenties w/ no job yelling at mom while doing nothing productive all day. And I'm not saying a spanking would have fixed that. Just that there are no absolutes.

This is learned by parents about VERY early on. Every kid is so different. When your kid has a problem, whether it be not eating, crying/collic, not sleeping, etc, you will get tons of advice on how other people solved it with their kids. Very little of it will work on your kid. Each kid is so unique and will require a ton of trial and error in order to help shape his or her behavior.

 

[karasu]

I think it's both wrong and ineffective. I was spanked by my mom and I had the shit kicked out of me by my dad. Neither method did anything but fill me with anger.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

This is learned by parents about VERY early on. Every kid is so different. When your kid has a problem, whether it be not eating, crying/collic, not sleeping, etc, you will get tons of advice on how other people solved it with their kids. Very little of it will work on your kid. Each kid is so unique and will require a ton of trial and error in order to help shape his or her behavior.

In fact, just looking at all the different advice from friends and family shows you just how different children can be.

3 year old Johnny won't eat his vegetables:

- Make him sit there until he eats them
- Explain the health benefits of a balanced diet
- Let him down and don't force the issue
- Serve him the unwanted food first and the wanted food last

and so on...

Everyone will claim a different method worked for them and in the end, none of them may work for Johnny and his parents may have to find another method to which they will add to the next list of advice.

 

[Des0lar]

I think it's both wrong and ineffective. I was spanked by my mom and I had the shit kicked out of me by my dad. Neither method did anything but fill me with anger.

Exactly this. I love my father, but the most intense childhood memory was, when he spanked me really hard. I still remember that day.

I will never do this to my future children and I can't look up to parents who have to resort to violence to get their point across.

 

[Kinitari]

Did you really just compare a smack on the butt to a severe form of torture?

I did not, there was no comparison in that statement. I am simply saying there are a whole range of 'tools' at my disposal, and you darkly implying that by not utilizing them it is somehow bad is a ridiculous statement, which I matched with another ridiculous statement.

 

[McLovin]

Most kids don't need it. But once in a while you see one that might need something. On this topic my dad has 7 kids. Most from different women. He told my lil brother to go to sleep because it was getting late. I think it was like 9 or something. And he mouthed off and refused. By bro stood his ground and even started to cried (at this point nothing had happened other then him being told to go to bed) Dad got pissed and spanked him, lil bro called his mom and said my dad was trying to kill him, said he punched him so hard he thought he was going to die. They almost called the cops. That scared my dad shitless and now he won't invite my brother over any more. Anyway spanking kids is serious business.
note- If you guys are curious nothing more happened then him getting spanked. And it wasn't hard spanking either.

 

[Kinitari]

Spanking isn't physical abuse, lol.

Like I said some of you act like kids are robots that behave as programmed. For some kids a timeout or taking something away will work fine. Others showing disappointment will work. Others a spanking. And some...nothing will work.

This notion that if you do "A...B...C" and will have a perfectly functioning adult in 18 years is silly. You can do everything right, never hit him and he grows up to be a spoiled douche in his mid twenties w/ no job yelling at mom while doing nothing productive all day. And I'm not saying a spanking would have fixed that. Just that there are no absolutes.

There are probably millions upon millions of kids who are reared well without ever being spanked, or without any corporal punishment whatsoever. Why is it that suddenly when a kid is spanked, that kid is particularly different from those millions that he/she needs to be spanked. It's too easy to just say "my kid is different, I have to hit him/her or they wont behave" - when it doesn't need to be backed up. I want to really challenge this idea that

1. These kids being spanked are being spanked because they are fundamentally different than the kids who are not being spanked.

2. That even if such special needs child existed, that spanking is probably not the way to deal with them. I don't even know what biological characteristics this supposed child would have that would make them impervious to all forms of discipline but spanking, but if that's the case then I think that there needs to be particularly special care for this child.

 

[leadbelly]

Actually, there was an instance I can remember in my youth where a good spanking was certainly understandable. I mentioned this in the last thread.

I was teasing my mother's friend's daughter. My mother and her friend started teasing me as a result. They were saying that the reason for me teasing her is because I fancy her. Being only a young kid, this wound me up. I basically said, "I'll show you just how much I fancy her" and proceeded to kick her in the stomach really hard. The girl burst out crying. My mum gave me the biggest hiding of my life for that, and I can tell you one thing: I never did it again.

It was quite a serious thing I did there, and obviously I know for a fact the punishment worked.

 

[Des0lar]

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/pa...havior/spanking/10-reasons-not-hit-your-child

SLAPPING HANDS
How tempting it is to slap those daring little hands! Many parents do it without thinking, but consider the consequences. Maria Montessori, one of the earliest opponents of slapping children’s hands, believed that children’s hands are tools for exploring, an extension of the child’s natural curiosity. Slapping them sends a powerful negative message. Sensitive parents we have interviewed all agree that the hands should be off-limits for physical punishment. Research supports this idea. Psychologists studied a group of sixteen fourteen-month-olds playing with their mothers. When one group of toddlers tried to grab a forbidden object, they received a slap on the hand; the other group of toddlers did not receive physical punishment. In follow-up studies of these children seven months later, the punished babies were found to be less skilled at exploring their environment. Better to separate the child from the object or supervise his exploration and leave little hands unhurt.

8. HITTING BRINGS BACK BAD MEMORIES
A child’s memories of being spanked can scar otherwise joyful scenes of growing up. People are more likely to recall traumatic events than pleasant ones. I grew up in a very nurturing home, but I was occasionally and “deservedly” spanked. I vividly remember the willow branch scenes. After my wrongdoing my grandfather would send me to my room and tell me I was going to receive a spanking. I remember looking out the window, seeing him walk across the lawn and take a willow branch from the tree and come back to my room and spank me across the back of my thighs with the branch. The willow branch seemed to be an effective spanking tool because it stung and made an impression upon me— physically and mentally. Although I remember growing up in a loving home, I don’t remember specific happy scenes with nearly as much detail as I remember the spanking scenes. I have always thought that one of our goals as parents is to fill our children’s memory bank with hundreds, perhaps thousands, of pleasant scenes. It’s amazing how the unpleasant memories of spankings can block out those positive memories.

The evidence against spanking is overwhelming. Hundreds of studies all come to the same conclusions:

1. The more physical punishment a child receives, the more aggressive he or she will become.
2. The more children are spanked, the more likely they will be abusive toward their own children.
3. Spanking plants seeds for later violent behavior.4.Spanking doesn’t work.

10. SPANKING DOESN’T WORK
Many studies show the futility of spanking as a disciplinary technique, but none show its usefulness. In the past thirty years in pediatric practice, we have observed thousands of families who have tried spanking and found it doesn’t work. Our general impression is that parents spank less as their experience increases. Spanking doesn’t work for the child, for the parents, or for society. Spanking does not promote good behavior, it creates a distance between parent and child, and it contributes to a violent society. Parents who rely on punishment as their primary mode of discipline don’t grow in their knowledge of their child. It keeps them from creating better alternatives, which would help them to know their child and build a better relationship. In the process of raising our own eight children, we have also concluded that spanking doesn’t work. We found ourselves spanking less and less as our experience and the number of children increased. In our home, we have programmed ourselves against spanking and are committed to creating an attitude within our children, and an atmosphere within our home, that renders spanking unnecessary. Since spanking is not an option, we have been forced to come up with better alternatives. This has not only made us better parents, but in the long run we believe it has created more sensitive and well-behaved children.

Some choice quotes... So why would you do this if you there is also another, absolutely better way?

 

[Kinitari]

Actually, there was an instance I can remember in my youth where a good spanking was certainly understandable. I mentioned this in the last thread.

I was teasing my mother's friend's daughter. My mother and her friend started teasing me as a result. They were saying that the reason for me teasing her is because I fancy her. Being only a young kid, this wound me up. I basically said, "I'll show just how much I fancy her" and proceeded to kick her in the stomach really hard. The girl burst out crying. My mum gave me the biggest hiding of my life for that, and I can tell you one thing: I never did it again.

It was quite a serious thing I did there, and I obviously I know for a fact the punishment worked.

But what you cannot tell me for a fact is 1. That spanking was the only or best solution to this problem. 2. Why you felt physically assaulting this girl was the right approach to showing them you were upset (not saying it's because you were spanked, but I am saying that spanking has been shown to encourage physical outbursts from children) and 3. That spanking you didn't have other negative consequences, consequences that have been often observed in children who are spanked.

But to be clear, that's not to say that spanking is always going to result in something disastrous, only that it is unnecessarily risking a disastrous outcome.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I did not, there was no comparison in that statement. I am simply saying there are a whole range of 'tools' at my disposal, and you darkly implying that by not utilizing them it is somehow bad is a ridiculous statement, which I matched with another ridiculous statement.

I guess we are done here then.

 

[equippedwithtowel]

This debate will rage on for generations without the real best way to keep kids in line bring acknowledged, a nice healthy guilt complex.

That shit works 24/7.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

This debate will rage on for generations without the real best way to keep kids in line bring acknowledged, a nice healthy guilt complex.

That shit works 24/7.

Won't that harm the childs emotional well being?

 

[leadbelly]

But what you cannot tell me for a fact is 1. That spanking was the only or best solution to this problem. 2. Why you felt physically assaulting this girl was the right approach to showing them you were upset (not saying it's because you were spanked, but I am saying that spanking has been shown to encourage physical outbursts from children) and 3. That spanking you didn't have other negative consequences, consequences that have been often observed in children who are spanked.

But to be clear, that's not to say that spanking is always going to result in something disastrous, only that it is unnecessarily risking a disastrous outcome.

Well, it didn't have the negative consequence of me kicking that girl again. So in terms of violent behaviour towards that girl, it worked. And thinking about it, I understood perfectly why I was spanked. I knew it was punishment for what I did, it didn't really make me distant from my mother.

And I don't know what the alternative would have been to be honest. I'm not saying there wasn't one, but it was quite a serious thing I did, which required a fitting punishment. It is not so much whether there was a fitting alternative anyway, it was more about the idea that spanking doesn't work. It worked for me in that instance.

 

[equippedwithtowel]

Won't that harm the childs emotional well being?

I was mostly being facetious, but if I were to continue I'd give the meaningless anecdote that I turned out alright.

 

[bodine1231]

Spanking isn't physical abuse, lol.

Like I said some of you act like kids are robots that behave as programmed. For some kids a timeout or taking something away will work fine. Others showing disappointment will work. Others a spanking. And some...nothing will work.

This notion that if you do "A...B...C" and will have a perfectly functioning adult in 18 years is silly. You can do everything right, never hit him and he grows up to be a spoiled douche in his mid twenties w/ no job yelling at mom while doing nothing productive all day. And I'm not saying a spanking would have fixed that. Just that there are no absolutes.

Exactly this. You have to find out what works with the child. For me I didn't care about getting grounded because I'd go in my room and play NES or read all day,but I was scared of catching an ass woopin. My sister on the other hand would do bad shit because she didn't mind the spanking until my parents realized that grounding her and taking her phone (way before cell) privileges away worked wonders.

 

[not psycho]

I'd say wrong in general. But if there is a good time to use it, it would be when the behavior itself is very memorable, such as leadbelly's example.

What you especially want to avoid is the kid later on having no idea why they were hit, but only remembering humiliation and anger.

 

[Kinitari]

I guess we are done here then.

? Why are we done? What did I do that would make you feel like I crossed some sort of line? I highlighted that not every potential tool at a parents disposal is relevant, and that avoiding using some is not a bad thing, and to imply so is ridiculous, do you disagree with any of that? And a little while ago you pestered me to answer your questions before answering mine, and I did pretty thoroughly, but all you've done are cherry pick single lines from my responses and twist them insidiously, all the while ignoring my questions. In my opinion, that's some serious bullshit, and if anything it just seems like you are running away from a potential embarrassment. Own up to something here, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to make me out like I'm saying anything ridiculous here - it's not like you are doing it unintentionally, it's very obvious you are trying to frame what I am saying differently for the 'audience'.

 

[Korosenai]

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/pa...havior/spanking/10-reasons-not-hit-your-child







Some choice quotes... So why would you do this if you there is also another, absolutely better way?

I was spanked as a kid, and i am not aggressive or angry at all. I dont even remember the times i was spanked either. Ive never been in a fight before, and i rarely get mad at anything.... So what now? My dads military too, so you know he didnt take it easy on me. He only ever used a belt though.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

? I highlighted that not every potential tool at a parents disposal is relevant, and that avoiding using some is not a bad thing, and to imply so is ridiculous, do you disagree with any of that?

Waterboarding is not a tool at a parents disposal but you said you weren't being serious so...

And a little while ago you pestered me to answer your questions before answering mine

Yes, I pestered you to answer the questions put to you instead of answering my questions with more questions. Pestered...LOL.

and I did pretty thoroughly, but all you've done are cherry pick single lines from my responses and twist them insidiously, all the while ignoring my questions.

No I didn't.

In my opinion, that's some serious bullshit, and if anything it just seems like you are running away from a potential embarrassment.

Yeah, that's probably it.

it's very obvious you are trying to frame what I am saying differently for the 'audience'.

Wow, paranoid much?

Why are we done?

I simply don't know else to tell you. I think spanking is a useful tool in a large toolbox. If you want to rule it out that's your business. What else is there to say?

Do you want to argue about whether guilt trips taken to an extreme are emotional abuse?

 

[Kinitari]

I was spanked as a kid, and i am not aggressive or angry at all. I dont even remember the times i was spanked either. Ive never been in a fight before, and i rarely get mad at anything.... So what now? My dads military too, so you know he didnt take it easy on me. He only ever used a belt though.

I think the problem here is that some people are misunderstanding the arguments against spanking.

1. The argument isn't, every single time you are spanked, there is a clear and obvious negative effect that you can self-observe that has derived from it, let alone any effect at all.

2. Spanking increases the likelihood of many negative effect, highlighted in many different studies, but it does not guarantee them.

3. Spanking is ineffective compared to many other forms of discipline, but that does not mean that sometimes spanking procures desired effects, such as immediate complacency.

 

[Daingurse]

I got the belt a lot when I was younger, and I don't think I'm going that route if I ever have kids.

 

[Brutalx2]

Look, if you spank your child for educational reason then i believe it's ok (for example: when he draw on the walls or behave rudely toward you) but you HAVE to put the line between hitting and saying :"it's bad"

That how i was raised and i turned out to be a very polite person and that is how i am going to raise my kids. That's my opinion.

 

[Kinitari]

Waterboarding is not a tool at a parents disposal but you said you weren't being serious so...

Why isn't waterboarding a tool at a parents disposal?

Yes, I pestered you to answer the questions put to you instead of answering my questions with more questions. Pestered...LOL.

You pestered me before I answered your questions outright, I then answered your question outright. - There were no questions in that post.

No I didn't.

Yes you did.

Wow, paranoid much?

Well I got you to respond by calling you out on it, didn't it?

I simply don't know else to tell you. I think spanking is a useful tool in a large toolbox. If you want to rule it out that's your business. What else is there to say?

Do you want to argue about whether guilt trips taken to an extreme are emotional abuse?

You can start by answering some more of my questions, or even some new questions. Someone else, in a professional position dealing with many kids, highlighted the method they use for dissuading improper behaviour near traffic, with this information, do you think it's possible to deal with the traffic situation, well, without using corporal punishment?

I don't know what guilt trips have to do with it, I don't know much about the psychological effects of guilt trips, nor would guilt be a method I'd want to employ for raising a child.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Here is a great presentation on the damaging effects of spanking for anyone interested.

It wasn't that great. Read more like fear mongering than informing and a lot of correlation =! causation examples I could think of.

For example, I doubt Zimbabwe has a low IQ because people spank their kids. I like how the Asian countries with higher IQs and higher spanking rates compared to European countries were completely ignored.

Also, can't it also be said that kids who are naturally more agressive are simply more likely to get spanked? How does the research control for that?

 

[Khalifa Jayy]

It's dumb as hell. I was spanked and became afraid of ever doing anything wrong.

And you're now a contributing member of society. Win win.

 

[Chake]

It's okay if it won't leave scars or anything.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Why isn't waterboarding a tool at a parents disposal?

Why would it be?

 

[Harlock]

 

[The Friendly Monster]

You can start by answering some more of my questions, or even some new questions. Someone else, in a professional position dealing with many kids, highlighted the method they use for dissuading improper behaviour near traffic, with this information, do you think it's possible to deal with the traffic situation, well, without using corporal punishment?

Yeah quite, people are repeatedly posting that "every child is different" or "every situation is different". However whenever they have either got specific with examples such as this, or general by looking at the scientific literature, the case for smacking has been thoroughly taken apart without acknowlegement.

I don't know how you have the patience that you have with this poster to be honest.

Why would it be?

It's really not a complex argument.

a. I don't believe parents should smack their kids.
b. Smacking is a tool that parents can use.
a. That does not imply that they should use it, in theory waterboarding could be described in the same way.
b. No it couldn't?

You can't simply define smacking as a "tool" and then use that to justify its use without opening the door for all sorts of other behaviour. You are going to have to do a lot more to justify smacking than calling it a "tool".

 

[Mumei]

The point is that spanking, and by that I mean a single open palm to the butt, hard enough to shock, but not hard enough to seriously hurt, is used at some point to reinforce 'no' or 'stop' or 'don't touch'. I haven't done so yet with my kids, but I forsee a time when it may be necessary. Not out of anger, not out of frustration, but as a necessary step to reinforce a verbal command for the well being of the child.

It is an optional step.

Once they have had discipline instilled in them in one form or another.

I don't think "discipline" is the right word; the reason I didn't run into traffic as a child is not because I had had discipline instilled in me (e.g. I was going to be punished if I did), but because the danger had been communicated to me.

And it isn't necessary to spank a child to communicate that something - busy streets, hot stoves, pools, whatever - is dangerous.

 

[Goldenroad]

A little slap on the bottom never hurt anyone. If it goes any further than that, then it's not alright.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Yeah quite, people are repeatedly posting that "every child is different" or "every situation is different". However whenever they have either got specific with examples such as this, or general by looking at the scientific literature, the case for smacking has been thoroughly taken apart without acknowlegement.

I don't know how you have the patience that you have with this poster to be honest.

A great example?

Schools are not the same as home. At home if your child refuses to listen, you can't just hand them off to someone else.

Me either, maybe he should stop talking to me. I already said I was done.

And it isn't necessary to spank a child to communicate that something - busy streets, hot stoves, pools, whatever - is dangerous.

It's never necessary? Are you sure a blanket statement applies here?

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Some choice quotes... So why would you do this if you there is also another, absolutely better way?

Because fuck empirical evidence. Parents know better than researched evidence.

 

[Head of Vengarl]

My older sister was never spanked. She was very difficult as a teenager and put my parents through hell.

I was never spanked. I was a good kid and gave my parents very little trouble, and very little to worry about.

I've seen similar results in families like my best friend's growing up, whose mom would hit them when they got out of line. Some of them were good kids, some of them caused a lot of trouble.

I've known some very kind, upstanding people who came from abusive/unloving households. I've also known people who came from a loving household with two great, highly educated parents, and yet they were the most angry, ruthless teenagers I ever met.

In the end, I am more of a nature over nurture believer. I think some kids are going to be complete shitheads no matter how hardcore or lax your disciplinary actions are. I will not be spanking my kids, in any case.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

It's never necessary? Are you sure a blanket statement applies here?

Again the burden of proof lies with you unless you want to allow statements such as "It's sometimes necessary to grope a child to communicate that something - busy streets, hot stoves, pools, whatever - is dangerous.". Before you accuse me of comparing smacking to groping, look again, and more closely at the argument. I am not doing that, I am pointing the hole in your logic that would lead you to that conclusion if you were consistent.

The evidence (beyond anecdotal) is against smacking being an effective form of communication and that it also has a lot of negative effects. To claim that it is sometimes justified for that purpose is going to require some evidence.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Again the burden of proof lies with you unless you want to allow statements such as "It's sometimes necessary to grope a child to communicate that something - busy streets, hot stoves, pools, whatever - is dangerous.". Before you accuse me of comparing smacking to groping, look again, and more closely at the argument. I am not doing that, I am pointing the hole in your logic that would lead you to that conclusion if you were consistent.

The evidence (beyond anecdotal) is against smacking being an effective form of communication and that it also has a lot of negative effects. To claim that it is sometimes justified for that purpose is going to require some evidence.

No, that's ok. You win.
[sarcasm]

I am going to leave to avoid "potential embarrassment", I might even waterboard some kids after I beat Zelda.

[/sarcasm]

These conversations go nowhere but it doesn't matter because in the next few decades spanking will be illegal all over the world, wise or not. Then there will be studies about how violence has increased since spanking was outlawed.

 

[Kinitari]

Why would it be?

The reason I ask this question is basically to try and figure out why spanking should be in a parents toolbelt? I mean, why specifically is a tool that should be in a parents list of usable tools?

 

[Broder Salsa]

These conversations go nowhere but it doesn't matter because in the next few decades spanking will be illegal all over the world, wise or not. Then there will be studies about how violence has increased since spanking was outlawed.

Therefore I propose a new law : You can not spank your children... Unless you are really mad and need to get your aggressions out, better to kick them around a bit than a stranger.

 

[Megalosaro]

Because fuck empirical evidence. Parents know better than researched evidence.

If you had read it, it was almost entirely anecdotal.

 

[velociraptor]

If all of you met by little brother, I'm sure you would all be on the verge of beating him up. Some kids need a real whopping.

 

[Broder Salsa]

If all of you met by little brother, I'm sure you would all be on the verge of beating him up.

Now beating the shit out of your siblings is a whole other matter. My brother got the belt when I judged it necessary.

 

[I'm an expert]

Reading this thread as a parent is cringeworthy. Also glad I was from a European background, we got the wooden spoon, not a belt lol.

 

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

There's a difference between spanking for discipline and just flat out abuse.

The stories you hear on the news are about people who killed or severely injured their child are the people who don't know that difference. Spanking isn't the solution for everything (there are many ways to discipline a child), but it can be helpful for a lot of things. I don't see it as an issue unless it's excessive. I think a good healthy mix of ass-whooping and other methods of discipline (such as grounding them and taking away their favorite things) is what a lot of kids could use.

 

[Mumei]

It's never necessary? Are you sure a blanket statement applies here?

I'm pretty comfortable making it.

Necessary is a very strong word, after all - it means that without corporal punishment, the ends desired could not be achieved. I don't think that claim is very well supported, whereas the opposite position - that there are other ways that don't involve striking a child - is well-attested to.

 

[JordanN]

My younger self would have said yes.

The adult me says no.

Hitting a child seems so wrong. You only hit someone if they threaten your life. The only exception is if its to save a life (ex: a kid tries to drink poison and you knock it out of their hands).

 

[PsychBat!]

but it doesn't matter because in the next few decades spanking will be illegal all over the world, wise or not. Then there will be studies about how violence has increased since spanking was outlawed.

 

[BlackJace]

Can we stop the blanket statements calling spanking parents lazy/failing at their job?

 

[PK Gaming]

I think so

My parents did it to discipline me when I was younger, and ive pretty much always resented them for that.

 

[JohnsonUT]

Because fuck empirical evidence. Parents know better than researched evidence.

Those statements show spanking is more likely to do harm than it is to do good, but it does not show that spanking is bad for all kids. This is not directed at you or anyone in particular, but what if spanking does more good than harm for some kids? How would people feel if 30% of children benefited from mild spankings? It of course would be up to the parents to decide and most parents are probably not capable of making that informed decision.

Also, I am not necessarily pro-spanking, but I am interested by people saying it is never worth it under any circumstance.