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Is spanking kids OK or wrong?

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empty vessel said:
I'm not talking about genetics at all. I am saying that children's behavior is largely determined by how their parents interact with them. If you want to interpret that as my having figured out that it was nurture, so be it.
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How else could I interpret it? You will also have to ignore a lot of research on twins who were separated at birth if you want to maintain that position.
 
Me and my friends were all spanked and I think we turned out alright.
Eh I don't mean anything like the video above. That indefensible. Awful
 
poppabk said:
How else could I interpret it? You will also have to ignore a lot of research on twins who were separated at birth if you want to maintain that position.
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I do not see how arguing that behavior is genetically determined enhances the case for hitting children. I agree that genetics will play a role in determining a child's brain development and mental health. But that's not what this thread is about. It is about whether one should hit children to teach them and/or discipline them. Are you arguing that some children deserve to be hit because they have biological impairments and are thus harder to teach and or discipline by non-violent means?
 
empty vessel said:
Children are mostly a product of their parents and environment. Anytime you point at a child and say "this child X," you may as well be pointing at the child's parents. So if some kids "need" to be physically hit, it's because their parents already failed at parenting. Seeing as how we have many examples of healthy children becoming well adjusted adults who were never physically assaulted to instill "discipline" or "education," it stands to reason that advocates of hitting children have a heavy burden indeed, especially given the general prohibition on violence that is universally accepted throughout all societies.
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Your name is well chosen. But why do you insist on erasing a kids' free will? Some people will make different decisions given the same environment.
 
Never found - as a child earlier in life - that spanking had much long-term impact on my behavior, positive or negative. Frankly I considered it a welcome alternative to grounding or the removal of privileges for weeks on end. After all, spanking was over so quickly...

But that's also why I won't be spanking my daughter, ever. I mean, if you're going to resort to violence, it should at least be effective at bringing about the desired result, but it never deterred me in the slightest.

Really, I think grounding or the removal of some beloved activity or object has a stronger impact.
 
I'm not a fan of teaching small children that violence is how you assert authority and get what you want.

Also, for those saying spanking isn't supposed to cause pain, then what exactly is the point? How is it a deterrent if if doesn't inflict pain? If you're just tapping them lightly on the ass to where they can barely feel it, how is it some end all ultimate discipline method that will work when grounding, chores, elimination of entertainment/toys/games, etc. all fail?
 
Nothing will work better on my son than taking away his wii for the weekend more than any spanking will do.
I don't condone spanking of any sort and I'll never understand why any parent would.
There are better and easier ways to get the message across to kids.
When I was given the choice between the cane or writing lines at school, I always chose the cane simply because it was over quickly.
 
Children do as you do, not as you say. If you beat them you are telling them violence is ok.

Breaks my heart seeing a kid slap his younger brother/sister when they do something the kid feels is"wrong". It totally comes from the parents.
 
KingK said:
I'm not a fan of teaching small children that violence is how you assert authority and get what you want.

Also, for those saying spanking isn't supposed to cause pain, then what exactly is the point? How is it a deterrent if if doesn't inflict pain? If you're just tapping them lightly on the ass to where they can barely feel it, how is it some end all ultimate discipline method that will work when grounding, chores, elimination of entertainment/toys/games, etc. all fail?
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Violence? Asserting authority? It's a spanking, not a beating. It's not really supposed to hurt either, it's just a reminder of who's in charge.
 
SummitAve said:
Violence? Asserting authority? It's a spanking, not a beating. It's not really supposed to hurt either, it's just a reminder of who's in charge.
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So, like I said, if it's not supposed to hurt, what the hell is the point? Why is a kid supposed to be deterred by it if it doesn't hurt? And how is tapping them on the ass lightly enough that it causes no pain better at reminding them who's in charge than, say, some stern words and confinement to a room with no entertainment or something while forced to write lines?

I don't see how it can be the ultimate punishment that will work when all else fails, but also not actually hurt at all. Seems contradictory.
 
I was a little shit as a child and I deserved the spankings, wooden spoons broken on my ass and bars of soap in my mouth.
 
Obviously depends on a few factors, but I'm absolutely not against it. Beating kids is different, you should go to jail for that shit. Spanking? Fine by me.
 
While i got a lot of spanking growing up, i don´t plan on spanking my future children, because i disagree with this method. One can talk to children and put boundaries. Children are smart and they understand things more than people imagine. When i was on vacation in Lebanon to visit my cousin, i saw her spanking her one and a half year daughter so i yelled at my cousin for doing it because i thought it was wrong, especially at such a young age. Spanking cultivates a culture of fear at home. The same cousin that hit her daughter did the same to her 5 year old son. Her son hit his head she was so terrified, and she spank him. The kid tried not to cry out of fear for getting spanked. I will not spank my kids when i know other methods work better. I am talking about my personal experience so i think there are different methods to discipline kids, and spanking should be the last resort.

empty vessel said:
I agree that it won't necessarily create a violent adult. But you are indeed increasing the likelihood that they will be.
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I vehemently disagree with you there.
 
MrToughPants said:
I was a little shit as a child and I deserved the spankings, wooden spoons broken on my ass and bars of soap in my mouth.
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What the fuck?

You Are Viewtiful said:
Letting your kids walk all over you and being a pushover is my personal definition of lazy parenting. Not saying that all anti-spankers parent that way, but you'd be lying if you said it wasn't prevalent.

Spanking is way less harmful than letting your kids do whatever they want.
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:lol

Because physical violence is the only way to get your point across.

It's pretty sad if you think spanking is the only/best way to get through to children and stop them from being out of line.
 
It's pretty much proved that it's counter-productive. The fact that you don't have enough patience as a parent has nothing to do with it being good or not.

I mean, it's your kid. You own the place, you decide where he goes or what you'll buy, you have virtually everything you need to make him do what you want. With that in mind, thinking of violence as a good practical way to make a kid obey is problematic.

Also I can't remember one occurrence in my life (for me or someone near me) of spanking solving anything. Making things worse, yes, improving no.
 
empty vessel said:
I'm not talking about genetics at all. I am saying that children's behavior is largely determined by how their parents interact with them. If you want to interpret that as my having figured out that it was nurture, so be it.
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You're probably a single child if you think behaviour is largely determined by how parents interact with children, there are many other variables and even some that are more influencial than parents as they grow. This is coming from someone with 5 siblings raised by the same parents
 
I think this is good few paragraphs that sums current views on punishment

Unfortunately, punishment seems to be a very common part of parenting and schooling. I say unfortunately because study after study shows that punishment by itself, as usually practiced in homes and schools, just doesnt work. It tells children what to stop doing (often, they knew that already), but it doesnt teach them what to do instead. Whenever you consider the use of punishment and suppress the undesirable behavior, you should make it a two-pronged attack. The first goal is to carry out the punishment and suppress the undesirable behavior. The second goal is to make clear what the child should be doing instead and to provide reinforcement for those desirable actions. Thus, while the problem behaviors are being suppressed, positive alternative responses are being strengthened. As you will see in the next section, recent approaches really emphasize supporting positive behaviors...

...Punishment tends to focus children on the consequences of their actions for themselves instead of challenging them to think about the impact of their behavior on others; as a result punishment does not instill compassion or empathy for others. Finally, punishment can interfere with developing a caring relationship with the child.
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And the author isnt even talking about physical punishment, which has been soundly rejected. The author is talking abut sending kids to their room, grounding them, or any action that attempts to suppress behavior. Again, its not saying that that sort of punishment isnt helpful, you just can't solely rely on it for the reasons in the paragraph.
 
Phoenician_Viking said:
I vehemently disagree with you there.
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Based on what? I have this:

Featuring data from over 7,000 U.S. families as well as results from a 32-nation study, the book presents the latest research on the extent to which spanking is used in different cultures and the subsequent effects of its use on children and on society. It presents longitudinal data showing that spanking is associated with subsequent slowing of cognitive development and increase in antisocial and criminal behavior. Both cross-sectional and longitudinal studies are explored in an accessible fashion. An abundance of high quality research has produced findings that are highly consistent from study to study, which show that spanking is a risk factor for aggressive behavior and other social and psychological problems.​

http://vc.bridgew.edu/fac_books/121/

Stop hitting your children.
 
You probably shouldn't teach your kids that it's okay to use physical force against others to get their way.
 
Some of the posts in this thread are pretty disturbing. Like the guy who wants to smack his kid when he comes home because the kid is being "smug" playing on his iPad. Jesus Christ
 
One thing which bothers me about spanking is that I think people have a hard time separating their frustration at their child's behaviour from their need to discipline them. People keep saying that they only spank when the child is being especially badly behaved, but at that point how can you judge whether you're doing it for their good or because you're just seriously pissed off?
 
jim-jam bongs said:
One thing which bothers me about spanking is that I think people have a hard time separating their frustration at their child's behaviour from their need to discipline them. People keep saying that they only spank when the child is being especially badly behaved, but at that point how can you judge whether you're doing it for their good or because you're just seriously pissed off?
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And do those parents teach the child afterwards what he should have been doing and work to change that behavior? I know someone said people who dont spank their children are lazy parents. Well, I think parents who just rely on punishment are lazy parents. Not to mention bad parents because punishment alone doesnt work
 
empty vessel said:
Based on what? I have this:

Featuring data from over 7,000 U.S. families as well as results from a 32-nation study, the book presents the latest research on the extent to which spanking is used in different cultures and the subsequent effects of its use on children and on society. It presents longitudinal data showing that spanking is associated with subsequent slowing of cognitive development and increase in antisocial and criminal behavior. Both cross-sectional and longitudinal studies are explored in an accessible fashion. An abundance of high quality research has produced findings that are highly consistent from study to study, which show that spanking is a risk factor for aggressive behavior and other social and psychological problems.​

http://vc.bridgew.edu/fac_books/121/

Stop hitting your children.
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Oh cool, I'd love to read that over the winter break.
 
I'll say this not as parent, or exeprt of any kind, just as someone who observes stuff, so, whatever, ignore me.

What I don't like about spanking isn't even the violence aspect, but the behaviorism of it. i.e.; it teaches your kid to negotiate right from wrong, i.e.; "I know if I do something wrong, I'll be spanked, but I want to do that more than I fear the spanking, therefore I do it".

So it begins this cycle of upping the punishment until, inevitably, the parent loses. It comes to a point where the kid learns that a spank doesn't hurt that muich, and that he won't be severely beaten. So parent starts to spank his stuff.; no more internet, no more videogame, no more allowance and so on.; again, it becomes a negotiation, it's not that I shouldn't do something wrong, I should, doing wrong stuff is awesome, it's just that is a trade. So jumping the window and getting shitfaced = 1 week without internet? Fine. I accept the deal.

I just see kids doing it all the time. They cry and they whine and next week they do what they are not supposed to all over again. Wrong is a matter of losing something that a lot of times is worth to lose it. And then parents throw their hands into the air and cry and "I don't know what to do with this kid anymore".

I don't know either, But the combination of relying on punishment + an obvious celling to how much you can really punish your kid = when he is 12 and wants to try this "beer" thing everyone talks about, he'll calculate that a week without internet and videogame might be worth it and just do it.

Edit: Oh yeah, also teaches kids that "don't get caught" = "Everything is allowed."
 
If I introspect a bit, I wasn't ever spanked. The only physical punishment I ever got was a slap or two in my life for being someone that totally deserved it.

I avoided doing bad things not because I expected physical punishment, but because I wanted to obey my parents. Not obeying them meant disappointing them and disappointing my parents brought deep dissatisfaction to myself. Not sure how I ended up having that ingrained in me, but basically I never enjoyed doing things that I thought would make my parents sad, worried, frustrated, or disappointed, because I loved them and loved seeing them be happy too much. It worked better than any sort of negative reinforcement or physical punishment or incentive, really.

Kinda wish I can have that kind of effect on my own children, that they refrain from disobeying me because, beyond practical/wisdom purposes, they know it will hurt the people involved.
 
Timedog said:
You probably shouldn't teach your kids that it's okay to use physical force against others to get their way.
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In what situation would this ever be the case? It's generally used as a punishment for bad behaviour, not as some weird form of parental tantrum.

I'm not commenting either way on the moral validity of spanking, I just found that an odd presumption.
 
Jimothy said:
Some of the posts in this thread are pretty disturbing. Like the guy who wants to smack his kid when he comes home because the kid is being "smug" playing on his iPad. Jesus Christ
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Being on a gaming forum, I would bet the kid sees his dad doing the exact same thing all the time.
 
robochimp said:
How desperate are we getting? What could be so important to resort to that?
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Your kid is biting a stranger? Your kid is doing something repeatedly that is putting them in danger? Your kid is attempting to suffocate their baby sibling?
 
It's only wrong if the kid isn't Caillou.

iphone_photo.jpg
 
empty vessel said:
Children are mostly a product of their parents and environment. Anytime you point at a child and say "this child X," you may as well be pointing at the child's parents. So if some kids "need" to be physically hit, it's because their parents already failed at parenting. Seeing as how we have many examples of healthy children becoming well adjusted adults who were never physically assaulted to instill "discipline" or "education," it stands to reason that advocates of hitting children have a heavy burden indeed, especially given the general prohibition on violence that is universally accepted throughout all societies.
Click to expand...

Some kids are more stubborn or willful and will not respond to, say, time outs or revoking of privileges. Studies suggest that siblings tend to be about as alike to one another regardless of whether or not they were raised in the same house or by the same set of parents, suggesting that parents have less to do with who we are than might intuitively seem to be the case. That being the case, it's not at all impossible that an otherwise good parent might be brought to use physical punishment in some circumstances. That there are many children who grow into adulthood without having been spanked does not mean that no individual child can benefit more from spanking than from non-corporal punishment, nor does it imply that children who ARE spanked necessarily turn out worse. Some will, of course, perhaps disproportionately many, if currently sociological studies are to be believed (though such studies have been quite criticized over the years), but that doesn't mean that there aren't kids who won't turn out better from spanking or that there aren't kids who weren't spanked who might have turned out better had they been spanked. Even if one is opposed to spanking, I find the conflation of the smacking of the buttocks with "physical assault" more than just a little hyperbolic and disingenuous. I was not spanked, perhaps would not spank my kids if I had any, but to judge others' whose situations you do not (and likely cannot) know the specifics and nuances of IS a form of sciolism, even if well-intentioned.

Edit: And yeah, the whole "You're teaching your kid that violence is how you get what you want!" BS is tiring. No, you're teaching the kids that actions have consequences, the possibility of pain among them.
 
NinjaBoiX said:
In what situation would this ever be the case? It's generally used as a punishment for bad behaviour, not as some weird form of parental tantrum.

I'm not commenting either way on the moral validity of spanking, I just found that an odd presumption.
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What? Child is behaving in a certain why and obviously is not interested in stopping. Parent wants the child to stop behaving in that way. Parent uses violence to get his or her way.
 
Ryaaan14 said:
When I was a kid I pretended to be afraid of getting spanked so that would be the extent of my punishment.
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Same. Taking my games was way worse.

I have no objections against spanking though as long as it doesn't turn into abuse. Can be a fine line though. Don't know what I'm gonna do when I have kids.
I'll probably do the same shit I did to my siblings and I do to my nephew currently. Just troll the shit out of them until they can't take it anymore.
 
It's okay to spank a kid just not to level of humiliation or a red behind. I turned out to be just fine =] however I do not condone verbal abuse neither did my parents
 
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
Some kids are more stubborn or willful and will not respond to, say, time outs or revoking of privileges. Studies suggest that siblings tend to be about as alike to one another regardless of whether or not they were raised in the same house or by the same set of parents, suggesting that parents have less to do with who we are than might intuitively seem to be the case. That being the case, it's not at all impossible that an otherwise good parent might be brought to use physical punishment in some circumstances. That there are many children who grow into adulthood without having been spanked does not mean that no individual child can benefit more from spanking than from non-corporal punishment, nor does it imply that children who ARE spanked necessarily turn out worse. Some will, of course, perhaps disproportionately many, if currently sociological studies are to be believed (though such studies have been quite criticized over the years), but that doesn't mean that there aren't kids who won't turn out better from spanking or that there aren't kids who weren't spanked who might have turned out better had they been spanked. Even if one is opposed to spanking, I find the conflation of the smacking of the buttocks with "physical assault" more than just a little hyperbolic and disingenuous. I was not spanked, perhaps would not spank my kids if I had any, but to judge others' whose situations you do not (and likely cannot) know the specifics and nuances of IS a form of sciolism, even if well-intentioned.

Edit: And yeah, the whole "You're teaching your kid that violence is how you get what you want!" BS is tiring. No, you're teaching the kids that actions have consequences, the possibility of pain among them.
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Unless you are in the military or criminal, I can't think of any situation as an adult where pain is used as a punishment.
 
Zefah said:
What? Child is behaving in a certain why and obviously is not interested in stopping. Parent wants the child to stop behaving in that way. Parent uses violence to get his or her way.
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You are assuming, though, that that is what children will generally take away from a spanking. But in speaking to people who have been spanked, what generally comes out is that they knew they were being bad and understood why they were being spanked.

Edit: bro1 - it's not about pain being "used as a punishment", it's about the fact that ill behavior can result in injury, even death. Some kids will not learn this from spanking, but some will. My whole point is that sweeping generalizations about what children do or do not need will tend to gloss over the nuances and needs of individual kids, who will respond differently to different things. And I am bothered by those who would equate a smack on the buttocks with physical assault, for this seems to me to be the epitome of missing the forest for the trees. Again, I did not receive corporal punishment, may not ever dole it out myself (don't even really WANT kids, honestly), but I respect others' right to consider their own circumstances and make the choice they think is best for them.
 
bro1 said:
Unless you are in the military or criminal, I can't think of any situation as an adult where pain is used as a punishment.
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Stepping on a nail, walking in front of a car, grabbing onto a hot plate etc. You may not be punished by society with pain but your actions can lead to painful consequences.
 
AdventureRacing said:
Stepping on a nail, walking in front of a car, grabbing onto a hot plate etc. You may not be punished by society with pain but your actions can lead to painful consequences.
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What does that have to do with parenting? When I punish my 6 year old it's for not listening or talking back. My kid gets very upset with himself when he disappoints us and himself and is remorseful for his actions pretty quickly.

I do make him do push-ups and jumps when he complains about not wanting to perform at sports though. Got that from his karate instructor.
 
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
Edit: And yeah, the whole "You're teaching your kid that violence is how you get what you want!" BS is tiring. No, you're teaching the kids that actions have consequences, the possibility of pain among them.
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Except it's been pretty consistently observed that children who are corporally punished are more violent than those who are not. So... not BS.
 
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