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[Won]

This asshole right here was so bad he took me right out of the movie.

Next TV show is gonna be a cartoon called "Empire Babies".

 

[Kathian]

Maybe but the story is Kylo. He's much more fleshed out already than Vader maybe ever was in the OT? Interested to see where his arc goes. The FO stuff is really just window dressing i suppose

His story is pretty terrible honestly. The First Order is just the Empire they just could call it the Empire. Everyone just needs to accept TFA makes very little sense following Return but the important thing is what happens next.

 

[NEO0MJ]

And Phasma was ridiculously underutilised.

I swear the only reason Phasma exists seems to be to sell toys.

 

[sphagnum]

I swear the only reason Phasma exists seems to be to sell toys.

Essentially. Phasma's design was originally concept art for Kylo Ren but JJ liked it so much he wanted to toss it in.

 

[horkrux]

The setup in TFA meant that almost everything they had achieved in the OT was for nothing. But not because there was a new threat on the horizon, but because the writers chose to let it happen this way in between Ep 6 and 7 so that the movie could start out basically like Ep 4 did. Disarming the Republic after everything that had happened is convenient, but also completely brainless. You also don't learn this from the movie iirc, so it's even worse for the part of the audience that actually cares.

TFO shouldn't have been in the position it was in. There should have been a capable force to oppose it, not some resistance.
I really wonder where they're going to take this...

 

[Real Hero]

Phasma only seemed under utilized because of the marketing you had to endure, in the story there's no reason for her to have a bigger role than she did

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Can't say I found them an interesting foe. The planetary annihilation made zero emotional impact as none of the films characters or important events had taken place there. And, come on... Another Death Star? Really?

The nazi speech was facepalm-inducing stupidity of an unnecessary parallell.

And Snoke himself just looked like the punished lovechild of The Hobbits white orc , Gollum, and Batman V Supermans Doomsday (which was already basically the stupid white orc on some godzilla-infused crack). That's one threesome you don't want to dip into. He just felt so, generic.

The rivalry between Kylo Ren and the blonde commander never led to anything of interest either.

And Phasma was ridiculously underutilised.

Really, the only interesting thing The First Order bought us was this motherfucker:

Which I think was utterly stupid as well. "Hey, a guy with a saber! Nah, I won't use my gun to blow him away like Indiana Jones got rid of that sword man in Raiders, no. I pull out my giant electric baseball bat and fight him!"

But I agree to everything else you said. The General and Snoke are JarJar Binks-level cringeworthy.


Overall, I enjoyed the movie.

 

[Back-In-Black]

Nah man, we really don't need some kind of morally relative "both sides are the same" conflict in a SW movie.

A) I wasn't saying it would be a "both sides is the same" conflict, the Cold War wasn't either. America did some shady shit but the Russians were FAR worse. The same goes for WWII. We nuked the Japanese but that could be justified through war, the holocaust cannot.

B) It works for SWTOR.

C) Star Wars is great when a characters morals and ethics are tested.

D) Rogue One just showed us how shady the Rebellion was.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I dont get how theyre still so powerful. Shouldnt they be like.. the rebels of the OT?

Also, when did the nazi type solidiers start popping up? I dont recall any in 1-3. Do they show up in the cartoon?

STORM
TROOPERS

 

[Coin Return]

But I agree to everything else you said. The General and Snoke are JarJar Binks-level cringeworthy.

Let's not get crazy.

 

[WedgeX]

hell fuckin' absolutely.

said it right after I left the cinema:



We could have had The Hunt for Red October in space

story could've been that, in the decades passed, the New Republic has been systematically rooting out the nigh-defeated Imperial remnants across the galaxy; most have been crushed, some have surrendered, some have defected and the rest are on the run, waging guerrilla warfare on the New Republic

Kylo Ren, who ran away from his parents to join the Imperial remnants out of his Dark Side fanboyism for grandpa Vader, has been missing for years but suddenly Leia and Han get a message from him out of nowhere that he wants to come back. He was with a cabal called the First Order and he commandeered a ship full of like-minded defectors to get away from them and oops that's all he can say before the holo-line is cut off

cue politically delicate, galaxy-spanning mission with Leia, Han and Chewie onboard the Millennium Falcon, to both find Kylo and get him back and also find out what the First Order is

on the way; we get Finn, a Stormtrooper defector, Rey, a mysterious stowaway aboard the Millennium Falcon (mysteriously compelled by the Force to stowaway, ooo mysterious), Poe, a once highly trusted agent of the former Rebellion and his droid sidekick BB8, added to the party

The rest of the movie is discovering who these characters are and their motivations, who can be trusted and who can't, especially inside the confines of the Millennium Falcon as they go about their planet/locale-hopping space mission

And in the end, when they finally track Kylo down and confront him, Kylo reveals it was all a ploy, trap, etc. because he's been swayed by the Dark Side and is all First Order now, kills Han, blah blah etc. etc.

and the First Order superweapon is NOT fucking Starkiller Base or anything Death Star-like; instead, it's revealed that the First Order is actually a crack fleet of Super Star Destroyers manned by the most veteran and zealous survivors of the Empire (the "rogue nuclear submarine fleet"), and as the final climactic scene we get a taste of their badassness when they warp in over that not-Coruscant planet and show off some former Imperial glory as we watch them utterly waste cities and armies for 15 mins screentime of Star Wars evil weapons tech porn to show how bad they are like never seen before with the power of modern CGI. Leia et al. arrive in the Falcon and desperately try to rally everyone left but can't and fail. The final battle scene is a handful of First Order Super Star Destroyers towing the planet's moon across with super tractor beams as they use the tides it generates to create a super-flood that finishes off the surface

Leia et al. are crushed, flee, how will they and the New Republic ever fight this threat, sequel is set up

Imperial remnants watch this on the news and are convinced they still have a chance, but the defectors are horrified, Finn included; he goes off to try and convince other defectors that there's still hope for the New Republic. We'll get to see him interact with other former Imperials in the sequel, get their POVs

Rey steals the Millennium Falcon in the chaos of the aftermath, and jets off to who-knows-where oh look it's Luke there's the same stinger but better set-up in my mind

same story beats we got in FA, but executed in a far better, plot-conducive setting


yeah, a Cold War-esque narrative would've embraced the new characters perfectly





but instead we got this ass of a setting

IMO

This is brilliant. And makes me sad.

 

[theCalamity]

I understood that, my problem is most people that use that word in this thread literally imply that they either remade ANH or empire.

It's not a 1:1 remake, but TFA is mighty similar to the OT.

 

[120v]

movie should've forced more narrative about how the First Order was essentially the Empire. more exposition along the lines of "we haven't forgotten endor," ect ... treating it more like the remnant/an offshoot you're left to fill in the blanks of the last 30 years with not an awful lot to go on.

all we got was a vague nazi speech about the republic is bad because reasons

 

[Briarios]

I think you guys are over thinking this. My wife and her mother had no issues understanding what was going on. A weak central government was underestimating a growing threat the outer planets were dealing with ... Those sympathetic to the plight of those planets, and who had great fear of history repeating itself, formed a resistance to fight the threat that the government didn't want to admit existed ... Until it turned out the resistance was right.

The set up is pretty simple - after the Empire, people were afraid of a strong central government, so individual planets were given more power ... But this meant less of a presence of the Republic, allowing the First Order to gain power.

 

[Alienous]

I think you guys are over thinking this. My wife and her mother had no issues understanding what was going on. A weak central government was underestimating a growing threat the outer planets were dealing with ... Those sympathetic to the plight of those planets, and who had great fear of history repeating itself, formed a resistance to fight the threat that the government didn't want to admit existed ... Until it turned out the resistance was right.

The set up is pretty simple - after the Empire, people were afraid of a strong central government, so individual planets were given more power ... But this meant less of a presence of the Republic, allowing the First Order to gain power.

I don't think the thread is so much about it being illogical, but asking "Why reset the universe back to where it was at the beginning of the original trilogy?". Sure, the story was written so incompetency leads to the Empire reforming, but it seems like a wasted opportunity to actually progress the story rather than retread it.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

It's not "yet another Empire", it's the same Empire just repackaged and after decades of rebuilding under a new leader.

Which I kind of like because the abject stupidity of Return of the Jedi really doesn't explain why the Empire would just go away because they blew up another space station and threw the old man down an elevator shaft. It would continue in some form.

This.

 

[Briarios]

I don't think the thread is so much about it being illogical, but asking "Why reset the universe back to where it was at the beginning of the original trilogy?". Sure, the story was written so incompetency leads to the Empire reforming, but it seems like a wasted opportunity to actually progress the story rather than retread it.

I don't feel it was a reset, it's more about how not facing your fears makes them more powerful. The Republic was so afraid of making the same mistakes, they ceded power and became ineffectual ... Almost like a certain Skywalker. It's a narrative parallel.

 

[theCalamity]

I don't feel it was a reset, it's more about how not facing your fears makes them more powerful. The Republic was so afraid of making the same mistakes, they ceded power and became ineffectual ... Almost like a certain Skywalker. It's a narrative parallel.

Narratively, it's a reset. We have the OT's Rebels vs. Empire dynamic back again.

And I don't know where you're getting the Republic being afraid and ceding power is coming from. I don't remember any of that being in the movie.

 

[Sapientas]

The First Order was fine, the Starkiller Base was not. Like others have said, it feels disconnected with the narrative till the point it's introduced and stops the momentum of the "find Luke" plot and how it affected the main characters motivations.

It blowing up those 3 seemingly random planets just confused the entire audience. Everyone that I know didn't really understand what was going on on that scene. Hell, even today it's not really clear what impact that had.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

I dont get how theyre still so powerful. Shouldnt they be like.. the rebels of the OT?

Also, when did the nazi type solidiers start popping up? I dont recall any in 1-3. Do they show up in the cartoon?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper

 

[theCalamity]

It blowing up those 3 seemingly random planets just confused the entire audience. Everyone that I know didn't really understand what was going on on that scene. Hell, even today it's not really clear what impact that had.

That was what pulled me out of the movie. I was thinking to myself "why should I care about these planets?" They're not even named until after they were destroyed and even then, only once. Those worlds being destroyed only served one purpose: to introduce the Starkiller. Those planets had nothing to do with the characters.

 

[JP_]

I wish they'd just make episode VII again, give them a do-over to come up with better ideas than simply copying the older movies. Shame they're going in to the next trilogy on such a weak foundation.

 

[Ho_su]

So one line in a speech over half-way into the movie appropriately setups that there is a Cold War peace between the New Republic and First Order. And, said peace is immediately shattered because Nazi General says that the New Republic is aiding the Resistance, who before the speech we inferred was the New Republic thus excusing their destruction. Okay.

Also again, even if you accept this as explaining the current political climate how is that the Cold War in space I proposed. Like I said this setup is immediately abandoned to reset the Galaxy back to small Rebels v. Empire in WWII in Space.



Breh, I know all about the current canon. What I'm saying is that you cannot expect the film going audience to have knowledge from the EU, if it's not explained in the movies then it isn't properly setup. I love Rebels but if Ezra and Kanan just showed up in Ep. 8 with zero setup or explanation I would call that nonsense.

The cralw.
"Episode VII
THE FORCE AWAKENS

Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts…."

Key word "First Orden HAS RISEN" is mean NEW threat.

Threat two who? What is the motive of the First Orden? It say it there: Kill all Jedis.

So they are therroris against a religion. Not a treat agaist the Social and Political Orden. Got it.

Fin say multuple times "we ned to get out of the system" it means than the First Orden Only have power in littles spaces, not like the Empire than has the total Political/Militar Power.

The Republic give suport and form a little group call the RESISTANCE lead by Leya to kep the Frist Orden on check. The goverment make a special force to contrarest this new Terrorist Group.

The terroris group get a nucluar weapon because Dysney what to recreate ep 4. (Is bad decicion we get it) and destroy the ONU, i mean the Republic Center because they make a special force than have stoped they plans to kill all Jedis.

I dont see it the Empire=First Orden. Of curse only in the estetics.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

It's damn near inpossible to stay completely informed on the lore now because of the myriad of sources.

True.

 

[Straight Edge]

They should have adapted Heir to the Empire. For all its faults it makes the most sense from showing what a post ROTJ galaxy would look like politically.

 

[ghostwritingduck]

I don't know why they had to rename the Rebels and Empire. Feels pretty arbitrary.

It happens in real life. Al-Qaeda turning into ISIS is an example.

 

[Alienous]

Heck, I think the First Order would have been more interesting if they had a different dress-code to the Empire.

 

[JB1981]

The cralw.
"Episode VII
THE FORCE AWAKENS

Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts…."

Key word "First Orden HAS RISEN" is mean NEW threat.

Threat two who? What is the motive of the First Orden? It say it there: Kill all Jedis.

So they are therroris against a religion. Not a treat agaist the Social and Political Orden. Got it.

Fin say multuple times "we ned to get out of the system" it means than the First Orden Only have power in littles spaces, not like the Empire than has the total Political/Militar Power.

The Republic give suport and form a little group call the RESISTANCE lead by Leya to kep the Frist Orden on check. The goverment make a special force to contrarest this new Terrorist Group.

The terroris group get a nucluar weapon because Dysney what to recreate ep 4. (Is bad decicion we get it) and destroy the ONU, im mean the Republic Center because they make a special force than have stoped they plans to kill all Jedis.

I dont see it the Empire=First Orden. Of curse only in the estetics.

Yea and it's pretty clear that they have only one ship, the Finalizer. And Poe is pretty damn surprised to see the size of the ship when he first arrives

 

[EGM1966]

They wanted A New Hope 2 with the good guys already outgunned and under threat thus something like the New Order was inevitable.

While I think it was a lazy approach I get the desire to go that way: my issue is thus the poor handling of setup in TFA, the time wasted on the unnecessary Starkiller base arc and the unseemly rush to undo everything from the end of Jedi.

The basic idea was fine but the execution lacking vs the better plot/narrative options they could have gone for.

 

[icespide]

it does kind of make it feel like everything that happened in EPs 4-6 means shit all and the galaxy is in the same spot it was before.

this is exactly how i felt

 

[UnemployedVillain]

The cralw.
"Episode VII
THE FORCE AWAKENS

Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts…."

Key word "First Orden HAS RISEN" is mean NEW threat.

Threat two who? What is the motive of the First Orden? It say it there: Kill all Jedis.

So they are therroris against a religion. Not a treat agaist the Social and Political Orden. Got it.

Fin say multuple times "we ned to get out of the system" it means than the First Orden Only have power in littles spaces, not like the Empire than has the total Political/Militar Power.

The Republic give suport and form a little group call the RESISTANCE lead by Leya to kep the Frist Orden on check. The goverment make a special force to contrarest this new Terrorist Group.

The terroris group get a nucluar weapon because Dysney what to recreate ep 4. (Is bad decicion we get it) and destroy the ONU, im mean the Republic Center because they make a special force than have stoped they plans to kill all Jedis.

I dont see it the Empire=First Orden. Of curse only in the estetics.

You're making a lot of connections and assumptions that aren't supported by the movie, and if they were wouldn't make sense.

1. How did the First Order arise from the ashes of the Empire when Vader and Sidious were the only dark side users and they both died? Why would it be contingent on Luke disappearing anyway, as those 2 were the only ones who even knew he was a Jedi?

2. Also claiming they're not threats against social and political order is absurd. ISIS, by your definition, would fall under that banner. No, when they have created weapons capable of draining stars (which can completely disrupt an entire solar system) and destroying multiple planets instantly, they are a threat to order in general.

3. You're reading Finn's comments too literally. Like the death star, the death star 3 needs to be in some proximity of the planets it's targeted at. It can't shoot beams across hyperspace obviously.

4. Again, you have a group capable of weapons of mass destruction like never seen before, and the only resources allocated to fight them is a small group of resistance fighters? Really? Okay, let's say they were underestimated at first. When they first showed off the power of the base, the Republic should have immediately treated them as a higher valued threat. Imagine if ISIS nuked a number of cities in a country and that elicited no response from the UN. What kind of sense does that make?

The First Order and everything surrounding them make little sense. It was a lazy attempt at the Empire 2.0, when it wasn't necessary.

 

[horkrux]

The final battle scene is a handful of First Order Super Star Destroyers towing the planet's moon across with super tractor beams as they use the tides it generates to create a super-flood that finishes off the surface

Wow. Just wow.

I want that.

 

[sphagnum]

3. You're reading Finn's comments too literally. Like the death star, the death star 3 needs to be in some proximity of the planets it's targeted at. It can't shoot beams across hyperspace obviously.

It sort of can, more specifically through sub-hyperspace.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

The First Order was probably the thing that bugged me most about TFA. They come across as a comic book villain and Rogue One only cemented that. When you compare Tarkin/CGI Tarkin with Hux it's plainly obvious, Hux is a character for a Marvel movie, not Star Wars.

 

[Jest Chillin]

The First Order was probably the thing that bugged me most about TFA. They come across as a comic book villain and Rogue One only cemented that. When you compare Tarkin/CGI Tarkin with Hux it's plainly obvious, Hux is a character for a Marvel movie, not Star Wars.

You're not considering context at all. Tarkin was a Veteran of the Clone Wars who believed in the Empire as a military force necessary to command obedience. He's the equivalent of a battle hardened General and acts accordingly.

The First Order, while commanded by The Empire's survivng highest officers for the most part, is very clearly driven by zealotry. Hux is very young and a complete zealot as are nearly all of the Storm Troopers.

This is a big reason why TFO comes across as Space Nazi's moreso than The Empire did. Because the Emperor rules through sheer power, literally, and fear while The First Order has recruited and trained with propaganda and demands unwavering belief.

 

[Timeaisis]

I've been thinking about it, and I've realized that just about every major problem I had with TFA's narrative has been linked to the existence of the First Order. Basically, a carbon copy of the Empire except their political position is super unclear. The First Order is responsible for:

1. The existence of a 3rd Death Star.
2. A series of planets being destroyed that we don't care about and took so much of the tension out of the movie. The bad guys killed billions of people and scored a major victory against the Republic... and it's treated like nothing.
3. Hux and Phasma being empty, lame characters with unclear relationships to Snoke.
4. The generally recycled plotline of an evil "empire" looking for a droid.
5. The fact that a janitor knows the details of a super weapon, and the weakness to it is very similar to the old one.

And the worst of it all is that it doomed the next two movies into being yet another story where they have to take down another evil empire. It pigeonholed the franchise into a very similar place, and that completely sucks.

What the First Order should have been is a terrorist cell that is consisting of the Knights of Ren and a few mercenaries (Phasma could have been one of them) with Snoke pulling the strings. They could have been working in the shadows to destabilize the Republic and spark another civil war, and then seizing power in the chaos. It's different from before, and much like the old Star Wars, it's relevant to people's contemporary fears. What we got instead was just the villains of "A New Hope", but super vague and unclear for some reason.

Oh dude it could've been like Metal Gear Solid Star Wars. They could have hijacked a Republic weapon base and threaten some planets or something. That's a neat idea.

Too bad we just got a retread of ANH. I still liked the movie, but I agree with you on the overall plot.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

The First Order is still a massive military organization, the idea of some 30 year old hothead being in charge of a massive planet-destroying base is just silly.

 

[Briarios]

Narratively, it's a reset. We have the OT's Rebels vs. Empire dynamic back again.

And I don't know where you're getting the Republic being afraid and ceding power is coming from. I don't remember any of that being in the movie.

You get it from what Hux said and Leia ... It's pretty clear. When Hux says that the republic is about disorder, he's talking about how planets are allowed to do what they want. The First Order believes they need to be under a single authority.

Again, it comes through in the movie, but that's not really what the movie is about. WWII movies rarely go into the conditions that caused the war and how the power structure formed. People have to go find the how and why on their own. Generally it's set up as good guys versus bad guys.

If you want to know more about how the First Order came about, read Bloodlines.

But think back to A New Hope -- pretty much all we got was that the Empire was evil.

 

[Jest Chillin]

The First Order is still a massive military organization, the idea of some 30 year old hothead being in charge of a massive planet-destroying base is just silly.

Reasonable critique. Though Hux isn't a hothead. Zealot, yes, but he's loyal and by all indications a capable commander. Everything that falls apart is due to Kylo being the hothead.

One can only assume that Hux rose to his position through excellence and loyalty. Why he's in charge of Starkiller Base is unknown. We don't get any information about where other Order forces are in the galaxy or what they may be doing.

 

[Tookay]

It's a little disheartening to see how so much of GAF is incapable of interpreting geopolitics and making sense of the universe.

The New Order spawns as a new centralized government under Snoke (presumably) from the old Empire. It's sovereign it's greatly diminished after the Empire's military power was reduced, making the New Republic the new ruling monolithic government. With the Resistance being secretly funded to destabilize TNO while normal diplomatic relations are still being done.

However, the power dynamics in the movie are a bit off by giving us no insight on the Republic and presenting the secret power of the new order without presenting how it masks it to the Galaxy. It being a "rehash" is the laziest criticism of one could make though.

That's exactly what people are complaining about though. I think most people by now understand the premise (especially with some of the new canon material), it's just poorly presented within the movie itself.

The reveals of information in the movie (beyond the scroll) make very little sense. You have no sense of the New Republic's size, structure, or purpose. The very first scene of the movie shows the First Order operating pretty openly and in a very threatening manner so it begs the question why the New Republic isn't doing anything themselves. It seems pretty clear that the First Order is already on war-footing with the galaxy.

If you're going to have a three-sided political situation (First Order, Republic, Resistance), then you sort of need a New Republic perspective for any of this to make sense or for anyone to care. And there was such a perspective (Cor Sella), but JJ and co. basically cut her out. Some people might get squeamish over the idea of politics in Star Wars, but after six movies and a 30-year gap, we sort of earned some basic context and POVs on the state of the universe.

As for it being a rehash, given JJ's track record, I'm not sure how you can so off-handedly reject that criticism. He reset the state of the universe (functionally, aesthetically) to rehash ANH's setup: the Rebel/Resistance are the underdogs again, the Jedi are wiped out with the exception of one person, the First Order is ruled by a darkside being whose protege is a Darth Vader wannabe, they seek superweapons. With the destruction of the New Republic, they basically wiped the slate clean of any development from ROTJ's victories.

Hell, even ROTJ's title doesn't even make sense anymore.

JJ and Kasdan sort of robbed the sequel trilogy of an ability to go anywhere interesting thematically (post-ROTJ, the good guys are in power, but what do they do with it? how do they treat terrorist Imperial cells? what can the New Republic do that the Old Republic couldn't?) for an exercise in Underdogs vs. Space Nazis Part II.

 

[s_mirage]

Like some others, I don't have so much of a problem with the First Order themselves. As an independent fragment of what was the Imperial Navy, they make sense. The problem is Starkiller base.

How can what should be a relatively small power have the resources and expertise to develop and build a planet sized, galactic range, superweapon that's vastly more powerful than the Empire's largest project, and do it in a relatively short space of time? It would be like ISIS suddenly turning up with a new ICBM platform with Tsar Bomba yield warheads.

The thing was total fanfictionesque nonsense, and it's existence is what brings the plausibility of the First Order into question.

 

[theCalamity]

You get it from what Hux said and Leia ... It's pretty clear. When Hux says that the republic is about disorder, he's talking about how planets are allowed to do what they want. The First Order believes they need to be under a single authority.

There is nothing in the movie that suggests that at all. I think you're either reading too much into it or using information from the EU.

 

[Randam]

Is "Starkiller Base" even planet sized?
They just build the weapon on a planet, didn't they?

 

[sphagnum]

Is Starkiller Base" even planet sized?
They just build the weapon on a planet, didn't they?

It's the whole planet turned into a weapon.

 

[Psychoward]

I guess that if you want EU explanations and political dialogues, then you want a different kind of Star Wars, wich I don't like at all.

What if we just want basic logical consistency?

 

[Ho_su]

That's exactly what people are complaining about though. I think most people by now understand the premise (especially with some of the new canon material), it's just poorly presented within the movie itself.

The reveals of information in the movie (beyond the scroll) make very little sense. You have no sense of the New Republic's size, structure, or purpose. The very first scene of the movie shows the First Order operating pretty openly and in a very threatening manner so it begs the question why the New Republic isn't doing anything themselves. It seems pretty clear that the First Order is already on war-footing with the galaxy.

If you're going to have a three-sided political situation (First Order, Republic, Resistance), then you sort of need a New Republic perspective for any of this to make sense or for anyone to care. And there was such a perspective (Cor Sella), but JJ and co. basically cut her out. Some people might get squeamish over the idea of politics in Star Wars, but after six movies and a 30-year gap, we sort of earned some basic context and POVs on the state of the universe.

As for it being a rehash, given JJ's track record, I'm not sure how you can so off-handedly reject that criticism. He reset the state of the universe (functionally, aesthetically) to rehash ANH's setup: the Rebel/Resistance are the underdogs again, the Jedi are wiped out with the exception of one person, the First Order is ruled by a darkside being whose protege is a Darth Vader wannabe, they seek superweapons. With the destruction of the New Republic, they basically wiped the slate clean of any development from ROTJ's victories.

Hell, even ROTJ's title doesn't even make sense anymore.

JJ and Kasdan sort of robbed the sequel trilogy of an ability to go anywhere interesting thematically (post-ROTJ, the good guys are in power, but what do they do with it? how do they treat terrorist Imperial cells? what can the New Republic do that the Old Republic couldn't?) for an exercise in Underdogs vs. Space Nazis Part II.

Problably because the main focus of the film is the new characters? Not the political enviroment.

I undestand TFA need to explain more i feel it to, but it only the begining of a trilogy, we only have to wait what is the pay of.

 

[Psychoward]

This asshole right here was so bad he took me right out of the movie.

They played her up before the movie so much but then she turned out to be soft as pudding.

He's an amazing actor too, just terribly miscast.

 

[Randam]

It's the whole planet turned into a weapon.

The whole planet under its surfaced is part of the weapon? Not just the trench?

 

[Jest Chillin]

There is nothing in the movie that suggests that at all. I think you're either reading too much into it or using information from the EU.

The First Order is VERY clearly a Fascist organization.

What if we just want basic logical consistency?

It IS logically consistent. The problem is that people don't pay attention and think that what they want to see is the most logical progression. It often times isn't.

 

[Tookay]

You get it from what Hux said and Leia ... It's pretty clear. When Hux says that the republic is about disorder, he's talking about how planets are allowed to do what they want. The First Order believes they need to be under a single authority.

Again, it comes through in the movie, but that's not really what the movie is about. WWII movies rarely go into the conditions that caused the war and how the power structure formed. People have to go find the how and why on their own. Generally it's set up as good guys versus bad guys.

If you want to know more about how the First Order came about, read Bloodlines.

But think back to A New Hope -- pretty much all we got was that the Empire was evil.

You're reading so much into this that isn't clearly presented within the movie itself.

Beyond just that, movies are about more than the words people say. You can have characters stand in for ideas or as representatives for basic plot points (which there was going to be until JJ and Kasdan got cold feet and cut the New Republic representatives out). You can have imagery of different worlds or people living under the New Republic; further, juxtapose that with First Order power centers. You can juxtapose them with Resistance-oriented people and bases which could have easily laid out the disparities in power, size, and ambition.

Film is a visual medium - JJ failed to utilize that to display the differences among factions.