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[Men_in_Boxes]

Can anyone fu&#ing tell me what is going on with the Battle Royale genre nowadays?!

It felt like a genre that single handedly moved gaming into a new epoch back in 2017/2018.

PvP multiplayers infancy (1996 - 2017) was basically about who had superior mechanical skill. If you had faster reflexes than your opponent, and could control your cursor better, you were going to win the engagement.

Quake, Unreal Tournament, Goldeneye, Halo, Call of Duty, Counter Strike etc...

All fine games, but all games that reward the 15 year old kid who lives on Monster Energy.

Then in 2017/2018 PUBG and Fortnite changed the game and rewarded players who could outthink their opponent to a certain degree. Non combat choices now mattered in the outcome of fights. Communicating with your teammates was vital. Gathering Intel, strategy, tactics, positioning... it's like PvP finally grew up. What the f#ck happened to this dream?!

Apex Legends, Blackout, and Warzone pushed the genre backwards towards PvPs infancy. All three games were in first person (which diminishes intel gathering, communication, and conservative playstyles), and they play with a much faster, much shorter TTK than PUBG or Fortnite. I could ignore the success of these games as it appeared obvious that companies were forced to get a Battle Royale out quick...

But now Ubisoft is readying the release of Hyper Scape, which seems to drag the genre backwards even further. I'm flabbergasted...

Here's a quote from Brendan Greene, the genres Godfather...

“Essentially it's poker, right?” says Brendan Greene. “You all start with the same deck, and it's the decisions you make that get you to the end."

Does anyone have any theories why the genre is moving away from "decisions" and towards mechanical skill?

 

[Caffeine]

they are just being streamlined to the casuals for mass population leading to mass profits on micro. Its not about making the genre better but sapping the cow for all its milk for these major publishers.
I really liked the strategy aspect of pubg each game felt alive. now its falling into the same shit the previous multiplayers had.

 

[Ailynn]

I still play Fortnite all the time. So long as Epic keeps adding fun new content, I'll be hooked.

 

[Tesseract]

apex is fucking awesome

the higher level decisions of any master or predator match will melt your eyeballs

 

[Dolomite]

Simply oversaturated like FPS after Halo then eventually COD MW broke the mode for everyone to copy.

PUBG mobile is the only BR game I play today. Still laggy af

 

[VertigoOA]

Fortnite and modern warfare are still the industry’s most played games. On steam pubg holds strong, current 4th behind counterstrike, Dota and destiny.

I mean the market has been flooded with BR quicker than I can ever remember anything else that gets aped to death.

Fortnite doesn’t exactly appeal to all shooter fans so the more “grounded” alternatives of Cod, pubg and Apex are welcomed.

I honestly don’t think there’s room for more knock-offs tho. Feels saturated for sure

 

[Tesseract]

i think your assessment is wrong, not just the part about ttk / ttd (things get complicated when armor is introduced; evasions, knocks, thirsts, respawns and so forth must be examined)

you must consider player abilities, strong wraiths in apex are world beaters with which one is juggling hella permutations and combinations

intel, strategy, tactics, positioning, communication, choice, et alia are vital to winning any match and happen at such breakneck speeds, with so many cofactors, that i'd cannot adequately find a floor to explain

you should hop into s05 of apex or the recent fortnite season and spend some time with (equivalent) predator players, they are decisionmaking animals

 

[Deleted member 17706]

All I know is I wish the genre were around when I was a lot younger and had more time to play games for hours on end.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

Oversaturation.

 

[Potato Chip PRO]

I love Apix, but unfortunately it's getting stale AF for me on Season 5. As for Fortnite, I haven't played it since Season 10. I might go back to it! Also, retired playing COD and won't be touching it again in a few years.

 

[jaysius]

Play for 5-15 minutes wandering a map that's too fucking big, picking up worthless loot, the first person you see probably kills you, completely wasting said 5-15 minutes, that's Battle Royale in a nutshell.

 

[Tesseract]

Play for 5-15 minutes wandering a map that's too fucking big, picking up worthless loot, the first person you see probably kills you, completely wasting said 5-15 minutes, that's Battle Royale in a nutshell.

git gud

 

[Tesseract]

as for mechanical skill (this isn't aimed at anyone itt)

if you don't wanna 'sweat' in a competitive multiplayer shooter, i'd advise you to go play something else

minecraft, mario, whatever

don't ruin things for the rest of us

 

[Sir Vilhelm]

Play for 5-15 minutes wandering a map that's too fucking big, picking up worthless loot, the first person you see probably kills you, completely wasting said 5-15 minutes, that's Battle Royale in a nutshell.

Agreed. Way too much of nothing with just a jolt of combat. Fun for a bit but gets old quick. Fortnight also killed it for me.

 

[Tesseract]

Agreed. Way too much of nothing with just a jolt of combat. Fun for a bit but gets old quick. Fortnight also killed it for me.

the pace is whatever you want it to be

breakneck games where action never lets up are within sight

if you need something even faster, go play titanfall 2 or modern warfare

 

[Sir Vilhelm]

the pace is whatever you want it to be

breakneck games where action never lets up are within sight

if you need something even faster, go play titanfall 2 or modern warfare

Agreed, love Titan Fall 2. OP is specifically about BR

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Agreed. Way too much of nothing with just a jolt of combat. Fun for a bit but gets old quick. Fortnight also killed it for me.

I think this is the point I'm trying to make.

There's a scene in a bunch of movies where the protagonist is running, only to turn around and see he/she is being chased by bad guys way off in the distance. Maybe they're 30 minutes away, maybe 12 hours away, but it gives the protagonist time to make decisions. The choices the protagonist makes before the bad guy reaches them are what's so fascinating.

I feel too often now, you see your enemy and within seconds, you're dead. Either they're able to jump on top of you with a special ability or they're lasering you with crazy aim. The chase is becoming less and less viable.

 

[CamHostage]

I like the play of a lot of games on the list, but sure, in hindsight, we've drifted (or rather sprinted now) away from some of what made this subgenre special when it started. It became just another match-type for PvP games (and now games are launching with BR as the only matchtype,) rather than its own special game type and multiplayer challenge/considerations.

Unfortunately, I don't know that we're getting back to what you liked about Battle Royale in its inception. That said, there's a ton more BR, and there's a wide variety in it. FPS BR are one flavor, but there's still Survival BR, there's Action-RPG BR (like DOTA Underhollow,) there's kind of Racing BR (Forza Horizon 4,) Magic-Based BR in SpellCaster, Tetris 99 is Puzzle BR...

The only problem is, the mega-franchises are sucking in the player masses so hard that it's tough to get a crowd going in an outside effort. But if you look beyond the big games that are commanding all the attention, you'll find plenty of depth to BR besides just shallow (but fun) FPS blockbusters.

 

[SpartanN92]

I played a lot of PUBG mobile and only recently got into PC gaming.
I’ve been playing the shit outta PUBG PC lately. Amazing game.

 

[Barakov]

Oversaturation.

You know it's gotten bad when Ubisoft makes one.

 

[MiguelItUp]

I think they're just doing their best to try and "breathe new life" into the BR genre. But at this point it's all just being frankenstein'd together. I DO appreciate Hyper Scape trying to bring ridiculous weapons back into the mix, but everything about it just feels so boring, passionless, and lifeless.

I'm honestly just really looking forward to BRs dying out. I'm really not a fan of the whole "one giant map" thing. Well, and just the core BR gameplay mechanics.

 

[Hestar69]

No BR has been able to beat PUBG IMO sadly.
Apex is alright
COD is bleh
Fortnite is god awful.

It's just a shame the idiots at bluehole do NOT know how to do updates like epic does, and STILL charge money for the game. PUBG should be the biggest BR out.But they have dropped the ball so hard it's no wonder player unknown took the money and left to go make a Single player br game.

 

[Hawks Eclipse]

PvP multiplayers infancy (1996 - 2017) was basically about who had superior mechanical skill. If you had faster reflexes than your opponent, and could control your cursor better, you were going to win the engagement.

Quake, Unreal Tournament, Goldeneye, Halo, Call of Duty, Counter Strike etc...

All fine games, but all games that reward the 15 year old kid who lives on Monster Energy.

It's natural to think that a game like Quake Live rewards twitch skills but Rapha's legacy says otherwise.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

It's natural to think that a game like Quake Live rewards twitch skills but Rapha's legacy says otherwise.

No, all games reward both mechanical skill as well as intelligence.

When two players of similar mechanical skill face off, the player with the superior strategy/tactic typically wins.

Quake, to the typical gamer experience, prioritizes fast twitch mechanical skill over all else. To me, that's an extremely tired design foundation at this point.

 

[MiguelItUp]

PvP multiplayers infancy (1996 - 2017) was basically about who had superior mechanical skill. If you had faster reflexes than your opponent, and could control your cursor better, you were going to win the engagement.

Quake, Unreal Tournament, Goldeneye, Halo, Call of Duty, Counter Strike etc...

Don't forget knowing about weapon, item, and power-up placements and availability times. So it wasn't just having faster reflexes, but knowing when to strike, where to strike from, and knowing the best way to maneuver throughout the level.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

No BR has been able to beat PUBG IMO sadly.
Apex is alright
COD is bleh
Fortnite is god awful.

It's just a shame the idiots at bluehole do NOT know how to do updates like epic does, and STILL charge money for the game. PUBG should be the biggest BR out.But they have dropped the ball so hard it's no wonder player unknown took the money and left to go make a Single player br game.

Here's why Fortnite is still the king in my opinion.

It still rewards strategy, position, and creative thinking more than any other BR game on the market.

Building elongates fights so players can employ different weapon or item usage, and building itself gives players more variables to play with during an engagement. Fortnites combat variety has yet to be approached by any other game in the genre.

 

[-Arcadia-]

Some are misunderstanding the point of the thread. Its not about fads, it's about BRs introducing something new and wonderful, but beginning to fall back and rely on arena game type twitch tactics.

You can probably add Fortnite to that list. The game has transformed from something where tactical decisions majorly informed the entire flow of each battle and match, and whether you would win, to sharing space with the twitch building style of play, with very few actually playing intelligently outside of that anymore.

Twitch and strategic coexisting isn't bad (not my favored change), but the latter really stripped a bit of magic from Fortnite. I miss not knowing if there was a person behind every tree, bush, etc., or having to sweep a house, not knowing if someone could pop out at any second. It really drove intensity and fun, way, way up.

So... I agree with OP. BRs should take care to remember what made them so fun and popular in the first place, and incentivize that as well.

That said, I've had some absolute dream matches in Fortnite lately, so I can't rail too hard on it.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Don't forget knowing about weapon, item, and power-up placements and availability times. So it wasn't just having faster reflexes, but knowing when to strike, where to strike from, and knowing the best way to maneuver throughout the level.

True, but those things really only come into play when both players are at similar mechanical skill levels.

I've killed countless "sweats" in Fortnite by employing advantageous strategies and tactics. Players who would beat me 100/100 times in a standard 1 on 1 scenario. You can't really do that in a game like Quake.

 

[Tesseract]

Don't forget knowing about weapon, item, and power-up placements and availability times. So it wasn't just having faster reflexes, but knowing when to strike, where to strike from, and knowing the best way to maneuver throughout the level.

and that's just the tip of the iceberg

kinda confused by what i'm reading itt, tbh

I think this is the point I'm trying to make.

There's a scene in a bunch of movies where the protagonist is running, only to turn around and see he/she is being chased by bad guys way off in the distance. Maybe they're 30 minutes away, maybe 12 hours away, but it gives the protagonist time to make decisions. The choices the protagonist makes before the bad guy reaches them are what's so fascinating.

I feel too often now, you see your enemy and within seconds, you're dead. Either they're able to jump on top of you with a special ability or they're lasering you with crazy aim. The chase is becoming less and less viable.

i don't know what to make of this post, there's plenty of this in apex and fortnite

 

[Elder Legend]

Play for 5-15 minutes wandering a map that's too fucking big, picking up worthless loot, the first person you see probably kills you, completely wasting said 5-15 minutes, that's Battle Royale in a nutshell.

Sounds like someone's really bad at battle royale. Ever considered maybe strategizing and learning the map and picking a good spot to drop instead of hoping for god tier loot?

 

[RPS37]

I think you’re not giving Apex enough credit.
There’s so much strategy going on for me and I suck at it.

 

[Tesseract]

True, but those things really only come into play when both players are at similar mechanical skill levels.

I've killed countless "sweats" in Fortnite by employing advantageous strategies and tactics. Players who would beat me 100/100 times in a standard 1 on 1 scenario. You can't really do that in a game like Quake.

re: quake, they happen at an even higher level with deeper stakes, dependent upon load outs, health and armor, entity spawn status, so forth

 

[MiguelItUp]

Building elongates fights so players can employ different weapon or item usage, and building itself gives players more variables to play with during an engagement. Fortnites combat variety has yet to be approached by any other game in the genre.

I suppose I can see that. I just have a hard time accepting/appreciating a game where the primary focus is competitive gunplay, but then resourcing building mechanics are thrown into the mix.

I can't help but feel like any BR that has a better and stronger focus on fun, fulfilling, and rewarding gunplay is king. Now who that king is, I wouldn't really know because BRs just aren't my thing, haha.

I'm curious to know when the BR genre will peak. Fortnite's content support and content alone is something that is especially impressive. I'd personally just love to see something pull the rug from underneath their feet that doesn't involve a mechanic that just feels like it shouldn't be a part of an experience where competitive gunplay is supposed to be the primary focus.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Some are misunderstanding the point of the thread. Its not about fads, it's about BRs introducing something new and wonderful, but beginning to fall back and rely on arena game type twitch tactics.

You can probably add Fortnite to that list. The game has transformed from something where tactical decisions majorly informed the entire flow of each battle and match, and whether you would win, to sharing space with the twitch building style of play, with very few actually playing intelligently outside of that anymore.

Twitch and strategic coexisting isn't bad (not my favored change), but the latter really stripped a bit of magic from Fortnite. I miss not knowing if there was a person behind every tree, bush, etc., or having to sweep a house, not knowing if someone could pop out at any second. It really drove intensity and fun, way, way up.

So... I agree with OP. BRs should take care to remember what made them so fun and popular in the first place, and incentivize that as well.

That said, I've had some absolute dream matches in Fortnite lately, so I can't rail too hard on it.

This guy gets it.

I've said for years that watching low skill Fortnite play is 100x more entertaining than watching a pro Fortnite event. Low level players still rely on a variety of different strategies and tactics, while high level play is stripped of anything interesting.

Spamming builds, editing, and twitch aiming is impressive from a certain perspective, but it's vomit on the eyes. Watching players hide in bushes and waiting for the perfect moment to utilize a gadget is infinitely more fun.

 

[PSYGN]

Sounds like someone hasn't played Apex at higher levels, because there is a lot decision making to be had and not only for yourself but between your team members as each character brings their own strength to the party. That in itself gives the game some depth.

Anyway, there are people out there that enjoy shooters for what they are and don't care to bring Minecraft into the mix. It's not about going backwards, it's just something called preference.

 

[-Arcadia-]

This guy gets it.

I've said for years that watching low skill Fortnite play is 100x more entertaining than watching a pro Fortnite event. Low level players still rely on a variety of different strategies and tactics, while high level play is stripped of anything interesting.

Spamming builds, editing, and twitch aiming is impressive from a certain perspective, but it's vomit on the eyes. Watching players hide in bushes and waiting for the perfect moment to utilize a gadget is infinitely more fun.

Honorary guy status attained.

But yeah, I totally agree. The World Cup was a pretty big moment of realization to me that pretty much everything I loved was stripped out of the game at that level. The trailer before the event just made it worse -- atvs flying through wind tunnels, crazy mid-air kills, super-fun looking. Then the actual event is just this... I'm going to be honest, boring (if technically impressive) crap of sitting in a box all game.

I think Fortnite is in a good place right now, even if I prefer how the first half of Chapter 1 played, but that'd be something I'd like to see Epic always keep in mind and alive, those fun realistic open world survival tactics. Maybe even push a bit more back towards them.

 

[Tesseract]

anything that gets away from killing players (without driving a narrative) is prolly gonna be a disaster

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I think you’re not giving Apex enough credit.
There’s so much strategy going on for me and I suck at it.

One of the (many) reasons why I love BR is because dying/losing is enjoyable. You're expected to lose.

When I die in a BR my brain instantly goes to "What could I have done differently in that scenario?". Too often in Apex Legends, my brain tells me this..."If you just hit your shots more consistently, you would have won.". I'll frequently get first shot on someone, in a perfect situation, and I'll lose the fight because I'm not hitting my shots enough. To me, that's boring game design.

Fortnite, especially early on, was way different. In that game I instantly think about proper item usage, should I have run, should I have built, hidden, healed etc...The auto aim is so strong that in many situations the superior strategy wins the fight, not necessarily the superior mechanical skill.

I don't know. I think these game designers need to think more Chess rather than 40 yard dash, if that awful analogy makes any sense.

 

[-Arcadia-]

Btw, I just want to say that Apex is exempt from my criticism. I feel like that being a combo of incredibly polished arena-style twitch play and open world survival tactics has, from Day 1, given that game it's kick and own unique identity.

 

[Tesseract]

pick someone with movement and get used to holding territories / naturals for cover

bubble shields, phases, gas, smoke, ports, graps, so forth are adequate tools for evasive players

there's a lot of slipping and sliding and repositioning around at higher levels, it's not about accuracy and precision unless you are putting yourself in kill shot positions on the open battlefield

 

[Hawks Eclipse]

No, all games reward both mechanical skill as well as intelligence.

When two players of similar mechanical skill face off, the player with the superior strategy/tactic typically wins.

Quake, to the typical gamer experience, prioritizes fast twitch mechanical skill over all else. To me, that's an extremely tired design foundation at this point.

Have you watched the video in its entirety?

If you watch it you'll note that mechanically, Cooller was superior to Rapha in that match for the entire time.

What you're really railing against in this thread is that the base mechanical and dexterity requirements for newer BRs are becoming too steep.

Look, I know we're all getting older everyday and our dexterity is decreasing, that doesn't make these twitchier BRs a bad thing.

Let the new generation flex their reflexes. If they have parents who can coach them on the cerebral aspect, even better.

One of the good things about Fortnite is that it's so big (playerbase) and welcoming (artstyle) that it's much easier to have a wide variety of player skill levels to play against. It's also probably why Lawbreakers had such a hard time getting anywhere.

 

[Phase]

I hope it dies an agonizing death. Then there's a chance arena fps can rise from the ashes!

 

[namekuseijin]

don't think so, but we can dream

 

[Tesseract]

I hope it dies an agonizing death. Then there's a chance arena fps can rise from the ashes!

there's room for both

i basically just want titanfall 2 and apex to be merged into one super mutant

and besides, the genie is outta the bottle now, quake champions and unreal tournament both crashed hard

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Have you watched the video in its entirety?

If you watch it you'll note that mechanically, Cooller was superior to Rapha in that match for the entire time.

What you're really railing against in this thread is that the base mechanical and dexterity requirements for newer BRs are becoming too steep.

Look, I know we're all getting older everyday and our dexterity is decreasing, that doesn't make these twitchier BRs a bad thing.

Let the new generation flex their reflexes. If they have parents who can coach them on the cerebral aspect, even better.

One of the good things about Fortnite is that it's so big (playerbase) and welcoming (artstyle) that it's much easier to have a wide variety of player skill levels to play against. It's also probably why Lawbreakers had such a hard time getting anywhere.

Two things.

I don't think twitchy, high mechanical skill games are going anywhere. We've had 25+ years filled with them, and new ones are being made all the time.

I also think there should be a space, especially as gaming grows in demographics, where communication, strategy, creativity etc...wins the day rather than strictly mechanical skill.

Gaming shouldn't require everyone to master the dual thumbsticks. Chess can exist alongside fencing.

PS: I think the Cooller and Rapha match is an outlier, not the normal experience in a game of Quake.

 

[RPS37]

There was a a specific scenario one night I was playing, my friend goes, “dude use that Phoenix kit I just gave you earlier NOW” it was fucking awesome.

 

[Tesseract]

Two things.

I don't think twitchy, high mechanical skill games are going anywhere. We've had 25+ years filled with them, and new ones are being made all the time.

I also think there should be a space, especially as gaming grows in demographics, where communication, strategy, creativity etc...wins the day rather than strictly mechanical skill.

Gaming shouldn't require everyone to master the dual thumbsticks. Chess can exist alongside fencing.

i'm telling you that space exists, just not sure you are willing to recognize it

There was a a specific scenario one night I was playing, my friend goes, “dude use that Phoenix kit I just gave you earlier NOW” it was fucking awesome.

grossly reductive, but i laughed

 

[Phase]

there's room for both

i basically just want titanfall 2 and apex to be merged into one super mutant

and besides, the genie is outta the bottle now, quake champions and unreal tournament both crashed hard

I'd be cool with the titanapex mix. Still wouldn't play it but that'd be a nice game.

But they just fucked up QC and UT so bad. It's like the wanted them to fail. I guess I just yearn for the days of yore when most players only cared about winning and how skilled they were - when there were no distractions built into the game taking the focus away from the glorious gameplay. At least I might be able to get back into it with Diabotical soon.

 

[Tesseract]

I'd be cool with the titanapex mix. Still wouldn't play it but that'd be a nice game.

But they just fucked up QC and UT so bad. It's like the wanted them to fail. I guess I just yearn for the days of yore when most players only cared about winning and how skilled they were - when there were no distractions built into the game taking the focus away from the glorious gameplay. At least I might be able to get back into it with Diabotical soon.

100%

 

[-Arcadia-]

I have to say, I'm really shocked to see George R.R. Martin close out the series with 'A Dream of Battle Royale' but I trust him.