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Is the model minority stereotype even real?

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zero shift

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I always hear this shit. "If blacks and latinos would stop complaining and get their shit together they could be rich. Just look at the asians!"

This never really made sense to me. Yes Asians have a higher personal income than whites. This, in theory, should say that they have excelled due to their hardwork alone and hardships can be overcome by any demographic.

However people tend to forget that most (though not all) modern Asian immigrants tend to be highly educated and aren't in poverty. You aren't going to be able to afford a plane ticket from across the world if you are poor. 61-65% of Asian immigrants have a bachelor's degree or higher and three fourths of the Asian Americans are foreign born. There is also the fact that most of Asian Americans live in the West which has higher income rates than anywhere else.

And if you split people off even further, which makes sense due to Asian Americans being a very diverse group of people.

The Vietnamese have an average per capita income of $21,500, keep in mind that many of them live in the West coast so its actually lower than it seems. This is also insane considering the fact that their German counterparts are around, if not at, the top of income earners in the country. While Laotians, Hmong, and Cambodians are even poorer than African Americans.

To me it seems that Asians, like Hispanics, are a very varying and mixed demographic that is very difficult to pin point. Sure many of these people have been successful, but many (most) immigrated here and a fair share with money (though there are of course those that earned their success through hardwork). I just don't understand this stereotype.


http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2013/01/SDT_Rise_of_Asian_Americans.pdf
http://www.advancingjustice.org/pdf/Community_of_Contrast.pdf
 
I always hear this shit. "If blacks and latinos would stop complaining and get their shit together they could be rich. Just look at the asians!"
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People that believe this are assholes.
 
It's not true for South East Asians and a lot of Islanders. A lot of Koreans are also very poor in the United States.
 
BertramCooper said:
Can we make this about minority models instead?
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DavidBowi_Dimit_13732445_600.jpg

Hubba Hubba! (to both of them)
 
The reason why you see a lot of Asians excelling in America is because you likely aren't getting to America without excelling or being related to somebody that is excelling. If you are from China and you want to make it in America, you have to be one of the few that works their asses off to be able to give themselves the opportunity to get here. Once you're here and have kids, you're likely instill a sense of strong self-discipline in your kids because that is how you made it to where you are. To the American public, we only see the highly successful foreign Asians since only the highly successful ones are able to make it to us. There are plenty of lazier Asians that simply make their lives in their native lands.
 
Really? I always heard mexicans specifically are very hard workers, but settle for the (usually harder) lavor jobs. Which isn't unfounded, from working labor jobs myself and seeing some of my co-workers working two jobs.

Haven't heard anything about blacks being lazy, only young black women at jobs being entitled and lazy. Which I've seen, but not in abundance and certainly wouldn't say its true. They're all just stereotypes for a reason.
 
I'm not sure what you're asking.

Do some people stereotype Asians as some sort of model minority? Absolutely.

Does this stereotype actually apply to all Asians? Absolutely not. Stereotypes rarely do.
 
basically conservatives are pieces of shit who know so little about history and economics and sociology they can say whatever the fuck they want and most people are too ignorant to call them on it or use it to fuel their own prejudices
 
In the pew report it says Vietnamese have a personal income of $35,000 and being notably less than whites but the other study says they have a per capita income of $16,000 and being far far lower than whites. Why is this? What's the difference between the two measurements?

IHaveCandy said:
The reason why you see a lot of Asians excelling in America is because you likely aren't getting to America without excelling or being related to somebody that is excelling. If you are from China and you want to make it in America, you have to be one of the few that works their asses off to be able to give themselves the opportunity to get here. Once you're here and have kids, you're likely instill a sense of strong self-discipline in your kids because that is how you made it to where you are. To the American public, we only see the highly successful foreign Asians since only the highly successful ones are able to make it to us. There are plenty of lazier Asians that simply make their lives in their native lands.
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To be fair in some countries, such as Japan, test scores are virtually the same regardless of economic background. Still doesn't stop poverty though. When everyone is equal in hardwork social mobility revolves solely around nepotism. Who knew?

Rentahamster said:
That's not the only way to get here. The term "FOB" didn't materialize out of thin air.
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And they are a minority of these Asian immigrants. Again 2/3rds of Asian immigrants have bachelor's degrees or more.
 
Rentahamster said:
They are now, but that wasn't always the case.
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I was referring to modern immigrants. Yes the 60s and 70s were full of FOB Asians. But lately this isn't really the case, well except for many of the Vietnamese.

Subitai said:
Yes

Of course, things are more complicated than this. However, perspectives are influenced when universities have to turn away qualified asian students. It has been discussed on gaf thoroughly:

Xia's thread: Asian US college applicants not ID'ing selves as asian to improve admission chances

Zzoram's thread: Too Asian? - An Article on Universities
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Its unbelievable that Indian-Americans and Hmong-Americans fall under the same umbrella with these applications. I mean holy shit.
 
My grandparents came over by boat with barely $200, no fancy plane tickets for them. Nowadays everyone in my family is it least middle/upperish-class. The "bootstraps" line has some merit but is far from the whole story. Bagging on every single injustice 24/7 isn't going to get you anywhere, learn how to pick your fights and focus more on improving yourself and your ethnic community.
 
Maybe the problem is the whole basis of this discussion is underpinned by dollars. It doesn't mean shit.


Who gives a fuck if a minority group makes 21k or 50k. How about lets focus on how their families are doing, how their health is doing or if they are conveying a priority to their children about education and/or giving back to a community.

Do the latter and the former takes care of itself.
 
zero shift said:
I was referring to modern immigrants. Yes the 60s and 70s were full of FOB Asians. But lately this isn't really the case, well except for many of the Vietnamese.
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Right.

What do you think of the stats of the decedents of Asian immigrants from 30 or more years ago compared to more recent Asian immigrants and decedents of those immigrants from the last 30 years to the present?
 
ToxicAdam said:
Maybe the problem is the whole basis of this discussion is underpinned by dollars. It doesn't mean shit.


Who gives a fuck if a minority group makes 21k or 50k. How about lets focus on how their families are doing, how their health is doing or if they are conveying a priority to their children about education and/or giving back to a community.

Do the latter and the former takes care of itself.
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Not really. Most, if not all, of these underperforming Asian demographics have strong family ties and work ethic and still underperform.

Rentahamster said:
Right.

What do you think of the stats of the decedents of Asian immigrants from 30 or more years ago compared to more recent Asian immigrants and decedents of those immigrants from the last 30 years to the present?
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In terms of how they are performing? I think the stats speak for themselves. Those that came FOB tend to be pretty poor while those that have/had an influx of educated immigrants coming here are doing well.
 
zero shift said:
I always hear this shit. "If blacks and latinos would stop complaining and get their shit together they could be rich. Just look at the asians!"
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My mother-in-law pulls this line out of her ass every time she accused of being racist.

"I'm not racist - I have no problem with blacks who have jobs and vote Republican."
 
Kite said:
My grandparents came over by boat with barely $200, no fancy plane tickets for them. Nowadays everyone in my family is it least middle/upperish-class. The "bootstraps" line has some merit but is far from the whole story. Bagging on every single injustice 24/7 isn't going to get you anywhere, learn how to pick your fights and focus more on improving yourself and your ethnic community.
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While there is some truth to this, it is telling when an entire ethnic group, or more specifically demographics, fail to gain social mobility. Especially if trends are showing higher secondary and tertiary school graduation rate and entrepreneurship. This has specifically been the case for blacks and latinos yet the gap between those gropes and whites has only grown not shrank.
 
A lot of the Times, having a degree doesnt mean much once you get to the states. I know more Asians that had to completely start over than I know those that had a degree that was even recognized. So I dont necessarily agree with your argument. I also see Asians climbing the social ladder and having lived in multiple social environments (ie poor rich urban suburban) than other races.

I think the difference is that they specifically came to the country with the intention to climb up. You see this same work ethic in non Asian white, Hispanic, and African immigrants. Its when you are born into poverty and dont know what opportunities are available to you that things don't work out.
 
Most people don't expect much from me (an american with full mexican blood), but I'll show them differently.
 
Jeels said:
A lot of the Times, having a degree doesnt mean much once you get to the states. I know more Asians that had to completely start over than I know those that had a degree that was even recognized. So I dont necessarily agree with your argument. I also see Asians climbing the social ladder and having lived in multiple social environments (ie poor rich urban suburban) than other races.

I think the difference is that they specifically came to the country with the intention to climb up. You see this same work ethic in non Asian white, Hispanic, and African immigrants. Its when you are born into poverty and dont know what opportunities are available to you that things don't work out.
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Not really. As said before social mobility has gone down despite there being more college enrollment in minorities and entrepenearuship. There's also the fact that its more common for minorities that leave the hole to fall back into compared to whites. There aren't that many opportunities for those in poverty. There tends to be more social mobility with Asians in poverty (well certain demographics anyway) yes, but its hardly the rule from going from rags to riches. Far from it.

As for the degree thing well anecdotes and all but it says right in the studies that more than half of the demographics that come with degrees are due to getting job offers from over seas. It says alot when 3/4th of a demographic wasn't born in the country yet their median income is a third higher or even double that of the average American.

Boom Boom Pow said:
it is not a myth. look at how many asian americans work for top tech companies in silicon valley. look at how many asian executives work in said companies.
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He didn't say that was a myth. He was saying that due to the model minority stereotype people ignore the bamboo curtain.
 
It's interesting to note that immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean have the highest rates of college education and English competence amongst all US immigrant groups, followed very closely by Asians, and then Europeans (but they still retain a lower average of median wage).

Why is this the case? Immigration is largely a self-selecting process, which is overwhelming met by people who are in some way middle-class, and, in regions such as Africa and Asia, higher education is extremely valued due to a highly tough labour market. The 'native' African-African community, however, is blighted by a poverty trap that runs deep for manifold reasons. Class is the real taboo subject in America, as far as I can see.
 
Tim the Wiz said:
It's interesting to note that immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean have the highest rates of college education and English competence amongst all US immigrant groups, followed very closely by Asians, and then Europeans (but they still retain a lower average of median wage).

Why is this the case? Immigration is largely a self-selecting process, which is overwhelming met by people who are in some way middle-class, and, in regions such as Africa and Asia, higher education is extremely valued due to a highly tough labour market. The 'native' African-African community, however, is blighted by a poverty trap that runs deep for manifold reasons. Class is the real taboo subject in America, as far as I can see.
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What you're talking about is a social taboo. Nobody will ever bring that up. What's more telling though is how after this was reported, a lot of Asians got upset and turned to insulting fellow immigrants/minorities or blaming it on AA which benefits white women the most. Not to mention the people studying back home aren't wondering about AA or social problems as much as: "What is the best University available?". But like I said. This was reported a long time ago and barely made the news. Online, it was talked about a lot and the racists came out in full swing of course.

The very notion that people in Africa aren't unintelligent or whatever flavour attributed to us now is too hard for some to swallow. But it's all irrelevant anyway. They're making strides and that's all that matters in the end. Not what society wants to think. At my high-school, our valedictorian was a fellow Nigerian student. There were very few people that even came close to his scores. 99+ nearly every-time. And now he's gone on to become a surgeon. His brother an engineer, another a commerce major, his sister a pediatrician and the eldest a chemical engineer. All top students upon graduating at the University. All heavy sciences. Nobody does "arts".

There was only one immigrant family from Africa that failed in our community growing up. It was the biggest shaming ever. People will literally laugh at you back home and here if they hear that someones failed in the land of opportunity and shame your clan/village/family name.
 
Immigrants rarely study arts. They tend to be more practical minded. They know that it's going to be a struggle to get jobs in America so they're not going to hold themselves back by getting a BA over a BSc or BEng.

SE Asians (Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc) doing worse than East Asians (China, Korea, Japan) makes sense given the source of the people. SE Asians immigrants more often start poorer and less educated when they get to America. They're also a bit more discriminated against than East Asians because more of them have dark skin.
 
Zzoram said:
Immigrants rarely study arts. They tend to be more practical minded. They know that it's going to be a struggle to get jobs in America so they're not going to hold themselves back by getting a BA over a BSc or BEng.
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it's only 2nd/3rd generation immigrants that starts going into the arts as a more stable income based has been developed, and wealth has been generated
 
Model minority is definitely one of the most racist things I've ever heard. It sounds like something you'd see printed on a poster in some Dystopian movie where the government has complete control.

time-asianamwhizkids.jpg


Whaddya mean THOSE people?

First of all, it really demeans Asians and other minorities. You're basically ranking a group of people, but even by putting Asians at the top you are subversively noting that they are still under whites.
 
Cultural differences are real.

Cultural differences generally correlate highly with racial differences.

Cultural differences are a primary factor of environmental differences.

Environmental heritability (culture + locality + external prejudices) means that people will find it difficult to escape their cultural heritability.


But the idea that a minority culture can adopt all the cultural values of another (model minority) culture to bootstrap themselves into success is as ludicrous as the suggestion that the majority culture would or should adopt all the elements of the successful model minority culture to further enrich themselves.
 
There is no culture in this planets history I can think of, that did not value knowledge or wisdom. "If there's a fire, everyone looks for water". A lot of the way intelligence is measured here and now the world over, is from a European one. What do you know about Maths? Chemistry? Physics? Geometry? What are your marks? Someone says "Wow! That's the size of Texas!" and most people living in the western hemisphere/world would get it. Some tribal person being asked the same question would have no idea of what a Texas even is. There is so much that people just pick up by simply living in a society/culture. You can't question someone on something they don't know. And the fact is that there is a big societal hierarchy that affects things such as education. People can know little, be less educated, know only their village. That does not make them unintelligent. They simply don't know or don't have access to learning. The idea that any one group values learning more than others, be it based on racial or cultural lines is ridiculous. Many people weren't even allowed to learn, and when they were. Were given scraps and poor support. There are reasons why the most down trodden are usually brown+ in our society. They're not less intelligent or incapable.

It's called standardized testing. But not everyone lives at the same standard. The topic of intelligence is an interesting one and one that would be great to see through. However, I do not believe that humanity has reached the point where that lid can be opened yet. Everyone is too scared to touch it because of our very recent history with ethnic/cultural insanity. Not to mention the annoying desire for people to go "Haha. I'm better than you!" that is so prevalent. There is still a tremendous bias and desire still to believe that some groups are simply inferior and use that for whatever deeds they commit.
 
However people tend to forget that most (though not all) modern Asian immigrants tend to be highly educated and aren't in poverty. You aren't going to be able to afford a plane ticket from across the world if you are poor.
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This is definitely true for the recent wave of Asian immigrants, probably true for those who immigrated in the last decade or so, but I don't believe this was the case for those who immigrated in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. My parents and my friends' parents all came to Canada with nothing to their names, and they certainly didn't arrive by plane.

Asians with means tend to return home after getting their education.
 
I'm curious to as of why the Vietnamese were able to work their way into working/middle class America far better than the Laotians, Cambodians, and Hmongs were able to?

Takuan said:
This is definitely true for the recent wave of Asian immigrants, probably true for those who immigrated in the last decade or so, but I don't believe this was the case for those who immigrated in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. My parents and my friends' parents all came to Canada with nothing to their names, and they certainly didn't arrive by plane.

Asians with means tend to return home after getting their education.
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Yes I was referring to those that came from the 60s, 70s, and early 80s. In terms of going back home I'm not sure how it works in Canada but in America the majority of Asians that stay here are educated at least from the mid 80s on.

Anyway from what I have done in research it seems that Asian Canadian immigrants come abroad have half of the amount of degrees than Asian Americans do. What also interested me is that poverty rates for Asian Canadians are a lot higher than they are for Asian Americans. Do you know why that is?
 
I still think it's weird that Indians and Pakistanis get lumped in with the rest of the East Asians in these statistics usually.
 
zero shift said:
I'm curious to as of why the Vietnamese were able to work their way into working/middle class America far better than the Laotians, Cambodians, and Hmongs were able to?
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Education and population sizes. While Vietnam may have seemed medieval if you were in a paddy, there was definitely an educated merchant class, so it's not like they never had anything. Laotians and Hmong were generally a little less fortunate, and educated Cambodians were systematically killed. Additionally, a good deal more Vietnamese came to the US than Cambodians, Hmong, or Laotians. That helped the Vietnamese establish larger beachhead communites that let them collectively purchase businesses, boats, and other things that actually allow you to integrate.
 
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