Try playing Payday 2(Dunno if they ever fixed it though). I always play it in borderless windowed mode.
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Is there a fourth option besides Vsync, Screen Tearing or GSync?
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
Try playing Payday 2(Dunno if they ever fixed it though). I always play it in borderless windowed mode.
sixteen-bit
Member
borderless fullscreen ftw
Yes it's noticeable when you use a 1:1 input like mouse, and if you can't perfectly maintain your framerate to match your screen's refresh rate then you'll get big dips like straight to 30 from 60 which will indirectly cause more input lag due to lower framerate. Which is why to avoid that games have the option to use triple buffering, but if you use triple buffering then you get another 1 frame latency added. All of that is very noticeable when you use a mouse...not so much with a controller.
AMD's Freesync. Freesync 2 is coming out 1h of this year w/ HDR support.
KampferZeon
Neo Member
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2794
The game binary itself -> clock 1
The monitor / refresh -> clock 2
we have all these problems ( tearing, input lag )
because
1) the 2 clocks are not cooperating.
2) clock 1 is not always on time, it's erratic
( we don't complain about refresh rates when watch YouTube on the computer )
3) clock2 typically has only 2 modes of operation
30fps , 60 fps ( we can't manually set the monitor refresh rate to some arbitrary number lik3 46 or 47 fps )
In other words I believe this is a hardware issue. No amount of software hacks can truly fix the problem.
this is why I think Nvidia is in the wrong in promoting gsync ahead of free sync
the refresh rates synchronization is too important , we must have a open standard to allow the GPU driver to universally syncing the timing to any types of display ( TV, monitor )
The game binary itself -> clock 1
The monitor / refresh -> clock 2
we have all these problems ( tearing, input lag )
because
1) the 2 clocks are not cooperating.
2) clock 1 is not always on time, it's erratic
( we don't complain about refresh rates when watch YouTube on the computer )
3) clock2 typically has only 2 modes of operation
30fps , 60 fps ( we can't manually set the monitor refresh rate to some arbitrary number lik3 46 or 47 fps )
In other words I believe this is a hardware issue. No amount of software hacks can truly fix the problem.
this is why I think Nvidia is in the wrong in promoting gsync ahead of free sync
the refresh rates synchronization is too important , we must have a open standard to allow the GPU driver to universally syncing the timing to any types of display ( TV, monitor )
TylerDurden4321
Member
One answer and one question:
Answer to OP topic:
There is also FAST-Sync, you can activate it from nVidia Control Panel for your game.
What it's good for: Games that have prone to tearing but have high refresh rates on average. If you can get double to triple your monitors refresh rate out of a game, fast sync pics always displays un-teared frames and pics the frame with the best timing to show on your monitor. The cost for this frame-picking is close to g-sync numbers in terms of input lag for ~150fps on 60Hz monitors, but goes to v-sync numbers when you approach lower refresh rates.
My Question:
Does anyone have numbers on input lag for v-sync on with different refresh rates?
I always wanted to know if input lag in v-synced games (traditional v-syncing, not adaptive or tripple buffered or whatever tech) goes down the faster your CPU/GPU and if, how big is the difference. Thanks in advance.
Answer to OP topic:
There is also FAST-Sync, you can activate it from nVidia Control Panel for your game.
What it's good for: Games that have prone to tearing but have high refresh rates on average. If you can get double to triple your monitors refresh rate out of a game, fast sync pics always displays un-teared frames and pics the frame with the best timing to show on your monitor. The cost for this frame-picking is close to g-sync numbers in terms of input lag for ~150fps on 60Hz monitors, but goes to v-sync numbers when you approach lower refresh rates.
My Question:
Does anyone have numbers on input lag for v-sync on with different refresh rates?
I always wanted to know if input lag in v-synced games (traditional v-syncing, not adaptive or tripple buffered or whatever tech) goes down the faster your CPU/GPU and if, how big is the difference. Thanks in advance.
I play with V-Sync on in the game and set maximum pre rendered frames to 1 in the Nvidia control panel to reduce input lag. Not sure if it works well with all games, but it did wonders for pinball arcade back in the day. I use it for all 2D games and some less demanding 3D games. I think it can affect performance so I don't use it for newer games, and usually I don't notice the lag so I don't fiddle with it when I don't need to.
KampferZeon
Neo Member
if in vsync with double buffering, if the game is supposed to run a 60fps.
so each frame takes 1/60 sec to draw
if unfortunately all the 60 frames requires more than 1/60 s to draw, then the refresh rate is effectively dropping from 60 fps to 30 fps
therefore the input lag jumps from 16ms to 33ms
jryeje29
Member
Try fast sync, I just started using it about a week ago and have had no issues yet. You enable it in the user control panel than make sure vsync is off in your game. It's still a bit screwy in that it's a newer feature so for example fallout 4 in game menus and lock picking and screwed up by it because of the games fps lock but I've had no screen tear. It might only be an issue in fps locked games.
Not just those. ALL games have been broken. Battlefield, Rocket League, et. al. Even Youtube is tearing. It's annoying as hell.
I would say roll back your driver and download one a year from now when Nvidia will finally get around to fixing it.
Edit: Also, don't update your drivers if nothing is wrong. You mentioned Serious Sam HD 1 and 2. Those are fairly old games, so if you're not playing the latest and greatest, don't even bother. Unless you're talking about the driver MS pushed through Windows Update, in which case you really had no control of that. FYI Nvidia put out a driver on February 14.
Edit: Also, don't update your drivers if nothing is wrong. You mentioned Serious Sam HD 1 and 2. Those are fairly old games, so if you're not playing the latest and greatest, don't even bother. Unless you're talking about the driver MS pushed through Windows Update, in which case you really had no control of that. FYI Nvidia put out a driver on February 14.
pinkurocket
Member
I have a 144hz monitor and I always have vsync turned off otherwise I get screen tearing. I'm not too smart when it comes to settings options, but this has been my experience so far.
QuantumSquid
Member
fast sync causes stuttering 
Gsync really is the god-tier upgrade. I don't even remember what screen tearing looks like. Is the game running at 144fps? Great! No screen tearing! oh no! The game's running at 45fps all of a sudden? Well too bad, because there's still no screen tearing!
Get a gsync monitor, kiddies.
Get a gsync monitor, kiddies.
I guess it's because the frame presentation and the monitor refresh don't happen at the same time, a game can still be 60 fps with some frames taking sligtly more time balanced by other frames taking slightly less time.
Dsyndrome
Member
fast sync causes stuttering
Haven't seen the issue fortunately. Only game that stuttered is Dark Souls 3, and that wasn't with Fast Sync enabled. Beats the massive screen tearing in GTA V for me.
I don't know why I still get the tearing with Gsync enabled, since the monitor is config'd for it.
uhhhh, you should not be seeing tearing with gsync.
Maybe you're playing Borderless Windowed games without having the Gsync Windowed option enabled? Even then you should be getting the usual triple buffering...
I have not played a game that gsync doesn't fix tearing in outside of those initial UWP games.
edit: oh yeah, nVidia kinda-recently changed it so that once you leave your gsync range you get tearing or vsync depending on the vsync settings. So you're getting above-144 or below-30 FPS I guess
Gsync will work up until your monitor's max refresh rate, so if you're pushing frames above 144, you'll get tearing. What I do is use RTSS and set a global max fps to 135. You could also just enable vsync, so that it will kick in once you exceed your monitor's refresh rate, but that introduces lag.
Dsyndrome
Member
Like I said, I don't know why it does it. Gsync enabled, just walking around Franklin's home in GTAV, Fast Sync and Vsync turned off, massive screen tearing. Getting 90-120ish FPS in 1440P. It's not a 144Hz screen or anything, I've just taken to using Fast Sync instead.
Edit: http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/g-sync-gets-even-better
Am I supposed to have Vsync enabled in the Nvidia Control Panel?
Edit: http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/g-sync-gets-even-better
Am I supposed to have Vsync enabled in the Nvidia Control Panel?
No, seriously, it's likely because your video card is pushing frames beyond what your monitor can handle. You said it's not a 144hz monitor, so I'm assuming you have a 60Hz Gsync monitor. If you're getting higher than 60fps in GTA without any sort of vsync activated, you will see tearing. Vsync only works for a certain range (on 144hz monitors, I believe it's between 30 and 144 fps, but not sure for a 60hz monitor). Anything outside of that and it's basically like a regular monitor, so vsync (or some sort of frame limited) would need to be applied if you're going beyond your monitor's max refresh rate.
If you're not using RTSS or some other frame limiter like I mentioned above, yes.
Dsyndrome
Member
Enabling Vsync brings it down to 60FPS then and the input lag's still there, seems like it defeats the purpose. I guess I'll keep using Fast Sync until I see stutters. Gsync's still enabled though.
Gsync will kick in if you ever go below 60 fps though, which eliminates stuttering.
Dsyndrome
Member
Awesome, thanks.
Well I did some testing and can confirm that NVIDIA's framerate limiter is no better than using double-buffered V-Sync in fullscreen mode when the maximum pre-rendered frames option is set to 1.
The average difference in my testing was within 3ms of each other which is within margin of error when shooting video at 240 FPS. (1 frame = 4.17ms)
Borderless windowed mode running at twice the framerate (120 FPS) also measured exactly the same latency too.
Since the game was running at twice the framerate of the other two in that test, it suggests that the latency penalty for using borderless is higher than I originally thought.
I've always avoided borderless mode because it feels laggier than fullscreen if you have the maximum pre-rendered frames set to 1. (borderless ignores this setting)
Unfortunately I'd have to shoot things again to add results for borderless at 60 FPS and Fast Sync at 120 FPS, and it was far more time consuming than I thought it would be so I don't know that I will.
Based on these results however, I would expect borderless at 60 FPS to have the highest latency result, and Fast Sync at 120 FPS to have the lowest latency result. (without tearing)
Disabling V-Sync measured 41.67ms lower than all of these options. (2.5 frames at 60Hz)
That sounds like a separate issue on your system.
The problem in Serious Sam HD is that everything in the game turns black when you enable V-Sync.
One of the main selling points of G-Sync is that it doesn't tear.
You must not have something configured correctly.
The V-Sync option in-game must be disabled for G-Sync to work.
The V-Sync option in the NVIDIA Control Panel sets what happens when the framerate goes outside the G-Sync range of the display. For typical monitors that might be <30 FPS and >144 FPS.
What people usually do is have RTSS set with a framerate cap a few frames lower than the maximum refresh rate to prevent it ever leaving the G-Sync range.
If you temporarily disable V-Sync in the NVIDIA Control Panel and play a game which can run at several-hundred FPS, the screen will tear.
Keep dropping the RTSS framerate limiter by 1 FPS until it stops tearing.
This will be a few frames lower than the maximum refresh rate, just due to how things work.
When it stops tearing, you know that it will never hit the upper limit of the G-Sync range and switch over to V-Sync when the framerate gets too high.
Now re-enable V-Sync in the NVIDIA Control Panel so that it doesn't tear if the framerate drops below the minimum refresh rate for your display.
Dsyndrome
Member
Right, what I typically do is enable Gsync and Fast Sync when I play games that don't freak out with Gsync being enabled, so that way I can get >60FPS but not get tearing and have minimal lag. Never seemed like Gsync was doing anything, but apparently it was.
On the contrary, I think you should always use a frame rate limiter (RTSS specifically) with Vsync. That is set it to the same number you're synchronizing to. It reduces input latency by preventing the back buffers from filling up. It also produces more consistent frame times overall.
Read through all of this, it has a basic rundown of G-Sync and the settings you should use plus other info many people may not know about. http://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3073
In my experience the only way that you can consistently get a latency reduction from combining a framerate limiter with v-sync is to limit the framerate to something lower than your refresh rate to prevent the buffers from being filled.
This works, but causes a constant stutter because there are fewer frames rendered than there are screen updates.
Frame pacing and latency can be improved without introducing that stutter if you set the "maximum pre-rendered frames" option in the driver to 1 instead of allowing games to specify a size.
This reduces the number of buffers to begin with, since the default is 3, instead of having them but preventing them from being filled.
It may be possible to shave another frame of latency off that by using RTSS, but only by introducing stuttering.
This.
Yes, you increase the chance of stuttering due to the lack of back-buffer and occasional framedrops/desyncs, but the reduction in input lag compared to standard VSync is immediately noticeable, comparable to and possibly less than Borderless Windowed in my experience.
Recently RivaTuner added fractional framerate limits. so you can do 59.94FPS for HDTVs or 59.90FPS to guarantee a framerate under the refresh rate without extreme stuttering.
nkarafo
Member
Yes, i use that latest driver. But i'm reading that even the previous one had this bug.
I really wouldn't want to roll back to some obsolete code that will break a more modern game like RE7 for instance. FFS Nvidia, why can't they fix their drivers?
nkarafo
Member
I'm interested in this. I'm using an LCD TV for most of my gaming. How can i be sure of the exact number of hz it's running? It says "60" on the screen but is it exactly that?
Sorry for DP.
CertifiedFP
Member
Borderless windowed, without question.
Everything you like about Vsync, with none of the input lag.
Everything you like about Vsync, with none of the input lag.
nkarafo
Member
Not all games support that though. What's the best way to force it?
petran79
Banned
I notice that Gsync causes choppy performance or slower speed in some games while on full screen.
Guilty Gear AC+ R is one example. If I enable game vsync, fps goes to 40fps, almost half speed. If I disable vsync it shows 60fps but with choppy motion. I play only windowed mode at Full HD res.
Touhou shmups get slowdown with Gsync too on full screen. Laptop monitor supports up to 75 hz.
Guilty Gear AC+ R is one example. If I enable game vsync, fps goes to 40fps, almost half speed. If I disable vsync it shows 60fps but with choppy motion. I play only windowed mode at Full HD res.
Touhou shmups get slowdown with Gsync too on full screen. Laptop monitor supports up to 75 hz.
Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
borderless gaming app
Not "none", just apparently less.
nkarafo
Member
Thank you
Lashley
Why does he wear the mask!?
copelandmaster
Member
Battle(non)sense on Fast Sync, G-sync, and Vsync
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L07t_mY2LEU
Personally:
I force borderless window any way possible
Cap my framerate to 120fps/60fps in RivaTuner
Enable Vsync.
That's how I stopped the Doom demo looking like a sketchy, stuttery mess awhile back. Don't really notice the lag. Went back and played it last night under vulkan now that Riva Tuner 6.6.0 supports Vulkan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L07t_mY2LEU
Personally:
I force borderless window any way possible
Cap my framerate to 120fps/60fps in RivaTuner
Enable Vsync.
That's how I stopped the Doom demo looking like a sketchy, stuttery mess awhile back. Don't really notice the lag. Went back and played it last night under vulkan now that Riva Tuner 6.6.0 supports Vulkan.
You can change Windows's refresh rate pretty easily (59Hz=59.94Hz, 60Hz=60.00Hz).
Unfortunately, from my experience, games are pretty inconsistent; some correctly copy the Windows setting or let you set the refresh rate in-game, while others latch solely onto 59.94Hz or 60.00Hz, or even use something silly like 24Hz or interlaced 60Hz.
I've yet to figure out a proper way to determine if a game runs at 59.94Hz or 60.00Hz.
FantasticMrSnake
Member
Is there a monitor 4k with gsync?
I think to enable it you have to enable vsync and gsync from the Nvidia control panel, and turn it off in game.
dgrdsv
Member
One thing to remember here is that screen tearing and it's perceived "massiveness" is game dependent. Some games tend to tear each frame in like 20 places, other games will have just one tear somewhere near the top or bottom of the screen and you won't notice it most of the time.
I personally tend to use vsync in two cases:
A. When I'm 99% sure that the game will never go below vsync fps limit (which is 60 in my case). The stutters with vsync on and the game dipping below 60 are way worse for me than screen tearing (hence why I almost always use adaptive vsync these days as I prefer some tearing in such cases to being lowered to 33.3ms timeframe momentarily).
B. When the game is completely irrelevant to input lag - usually true for slower paced games like walking sims and some strategy games.
In all other cases I prefer to play with vsync off and fps capped at some rather high point (~120 or more) as the minimization of input lag is way more important to me than screen tearing. That's another thing to remember here - screen tearing visibility and "massiveness" is totally subjective. I personally can think of maybe a couple of games where screen tearing was so distracting for me that I've used vsync even though that lead to noticeable increase in input lag.
As for a fourth option here - that would be NV's fast sync but it works as intended only when a game is running at at least twice your monitor refresh rate. If it's drops below that you will experience stutters.
Have you filled out their bug reporting form or are you just complaining on GAF?
http://www.nvidia.com/object/driverqualityassurance.html
They are unlikely to notice/fix bugs in a 7 year old game without someone actually reporting it.
nkarafo
Member
I'm doing it now, thanks.
Although, i don't understand a few of the things i have to fill in.
In my experience when I played cod4 competitively, I had zero tearing playing at 250fps. At 125 was very noticeable and after some tests I concluded that you need to at least have 3x constant framerate of your refresh rate. It was very smooth and tear-free, but you see that reaching those numbers in newer games will be impossible unless you want to play low settings 720p if not CPU limited like Watch Dogs 2 which would be impossible.
The other way is ignore that tearing and focus completely on the game but for slow paced games I can see that's a very difficult task.
The other way is ignore that tearing and focus completely on the game but for slow paced games I can see that's a very difficult task.
Of course, fast-sync needs more frames to work properly.
Try capping at 120 or 180 fps with fast-sync enabled, that's what I do with rocket league.
nkarafo
Member
Capped at 120, now it stutters even more. There is also some flickering. Also, the in-game fps counter says 63 fps instead of 60.
I think i'm going to nuke these drivers, roll back to 3-4 month old ones and never update again, lol.
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