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[expy]

Ehhh, the death of the animal alone, in my opinion, shouldn't be the main reason for going vegetarian... I mean, if you won't eat it, someone else, or something else will.

 

[Diatribe1974]

Ehhh, the death of the animal alone, in my opinion, shouldn't be the main reason for going vegetarian... I mean, if you won't eat it, someone else, or something else will.

No matter how you cut it, we as human beings must end the life/existence of something in order to continue with our daily lives. There's no difference in the core of the argument whether it is a furry thing or a leafy thing: We still kill it and eat it.

 

[Shanadeus]

Ehhh, the death of the animal alone, in my opinion, shouldn't be the main reason for going vegetarian... I mean, if you won't eat it, someone else, or something else will.

I'm aware of that.
But if I'm not eating dogs and cats because of the qualities they possess I won't suddenly start eating them just because someone else, or something else will (see south asia for an example).

I've just reached the conclusion that cows, pigs and fowl posses the important qualities I find in dogs, cats and other "common" pets - meaning that I can't eat them just as I cannot eat my pet bird or a cute cat.

Of course I'd want people to avoid eating cows as well, just as you perhaps might not want people on the other side of the world to avoid eating dogs, but I acknowledge that they might not share my feelings just as dog-eaters might not share your particular feelings when it comes to eating dogs.

It's a purely emotional reason, completely based on how I feel, and I'm content with it because I've finally found some form of consistency in it by going vegetarian.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

No matter how you cut it, we as human beings must end the life/existence of something in order to continue with our daily lives. There's no difference in the core of the argument whether it is a furry thing or a leafy thing: We still kill it and eat it.

You're equivocating like crazy. There's a huge ethical difference between killing something that has no neurological activity and killing something that has emotions.

 

[ManDudeChild]

You're equivocating like crazy. There's a huge ethical difference between killing something that has no neurological activity and killing something that has emotions.

... Says the life form with emotions. And:

http://www.ted.com/talks/stefano_mancuso_the_roots_of_plant_intelligence.html

 

[TouchMyBox]

eh.

 

[Shanadeus]

... Says the life form with emotions. And:

http://www.ted.com/talks/stefano_mancuso_the_roots_of_plant_intelligence.html

It's certainly an interesting topic:

Intelligence is an umbrella term describing abilities such as the capacities for abstract thought, understanding, communication, reasoning, learning, learning from past experiences, planning, and problem solving. Studies indicate plants are capable of problem solving and communication.

Not that it matters to me personally, if I can eat fish then I can certainly eat plants.

 

[JayDubya]

No matter how you cut it, we as human beings must end the life/existence of something in order to continue with our daily lives. There's no difference in the core of the argument whether it is a furry thing or a leafy thing: We still kill it and eat it.

Indeed. Killing and eating a cow is morally no different from killing and eating lettuce. We're inefficiently making ATP from sunshine no matter how you slice it (or more aptly, what you're slicing).

If you happen to personally prefer the taste of veggies, or think that it helps you control your diet better, or you have cultural norms, or whatever else really... well, that's cool and all, more power to you, but the general moral argument is a stretch and then some.

 

[Amalthea]

You're equivocating like crazy. There's a huge ethical difference between killing something that has no neurological activity and killing something that has emotions.

Well, carnivorous plants have an excuse then. :lol

 

[Diatribe1974]

You're equivocating like crazy. There's a huge ethical difference between killing something that has no neurological activity and killing something that has emotions.

You know that "Fresh Cut Grass Smell" people (generally) equate to a good smelling sensation? Well, it appears that scientists now believe that that smell is (correct me if I'm using the wrong terminology here) pheromones being released to warn other plants in the area. I believe that similar things are being said about trees as well.

 

[Amalthea]

You know that "Fresh Cut Grass Smell" people (generally) equate to a good smelling sensation? Well, it appears that scientists now believe that that smell is (correct me if I'm using the wrong terminology here) pheromones being released to warn other plants in the area. I believe that similar things are being said about trees as well.

There was also a study some years ago about that petting plants helps them growing, that they feel something.

 

[TL4E]

Indeed. Killing and eating a cow is morally no different from killing and eating lettuce. We're inefficiently making ATP from sunshine no matter how you slice it (or more aptly, what you're slicing).

If you happen to personally prefer the taste of veggies, or think that it helps you control your diet better, or you have cultural norms, or whatever else really... well, that's cool and all, more power to you, but the general moral argument is a stretch and then some.

If your morality involves causing the least amount of pain possible, then killing a cow is most definitely not equivalent to killing a plant.

 

[funkmastergeneral]

You know that "Fresh Cut Grass Smell" people (generally) equate to a good smelling sensation? Well, it appears that scientists now believe that that smell is (correct me if I'm using the wrong terminology here) pheromones being released to warn other plants in the area. I believe that similar things are being said about trees as well.

How does this warning help plants? The fuck are the other plants going to do, walk away?

 

[btkadams]

You know that "Fresh Cut Grass Smell" people (generally) equate to a good smelling sensation? Well, it appears that scientists now believe that that smell is (correct me if I'm using the wrong terminology here) pheromones being released to warn other plants in the area. I believe that similar things are being said about trees as well.

they were right!

 

[Gram Negative Cocci]

How does this warning help plants? The fuck are the other plants going to do, walk away?

It could simply be a leftover relic from their ancestors. I know there are species of tree that, when being eaten, warn other trees. These trees in turn allocate poison into their leaves. The animals in turn learned to stand downwind.

 

[Melchiah]

Meat is tasty but I can't justify the death of an animal just so that I may enjoy the taste of it's meat.

Goodbye leather clothes and shoes, and anything made of wool. Or can you justify the exploitation and killing of animals just so that you may satisfy your love for fashion?

 

[Shanadeus]

Goodbye leather clothes and shoes, and anything made of wool. Or can you justify the exploitation and killing of animals just so that you may satisfy your love for fashion?

It's the same there, I'm avoiding leather and wool in all forms since before due to me disliking the material so no problem there.

 

[ianp622]

If your morality involves causing the least amount of pain possible, then killing a cow is most definitely not equivalent to killing a plant.

But you have a bias towards electrical signals of pain that come from animals because you can relate them to yourself. However, why couldn't the chemical release of a plant be considered pain?

 

[rohlfinator]

Goodbye leather clothes and shoes, and anything made of wool. Or can you justify the exploitation and killing of animals just so that you may satisfy your love for fashion?

Why wool? I'm pretty sure they don't kill sheep for their wool.

 

[John Dunbar]

Why wool? I'm pretty sure they don't kill sheep for their wool.

Whenever someone says they're becoming a vegetarian, there's always some idiots who feel that killing animals for food is the same as milking a cow or shearing a sheep.

 

[Shanadeus]

Whenever someone says they're becoming a vegetarian, there's always some idiots who feel that killing animals for food is the same as milking a cow or shearing a sheep.

That sounds like a veganism rather than vegetarianism

 

[Melchiah]

Why wool? I'm pretty sure they don't kill sheep for their wool.

Whenever someone says they're becoming a vegetarian, there's always some idiots who feel that killing animals for food is the same as milking a cow or shearing a sheep.

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-clothing/wool-industry.aspx

Sheep are gentle individuals who, like all animals, feel pain, fear, and loneliness. But because there is a market for their fleece and skins, they are treated as nothing more than wool-producing machines.

If they were left alone and not genetically manipulated, sheep would grow just enough wool to protect themselves from temperature extremes. The fleece provides effective insulation against both cold and heat.

Shearers are usually paid by volume, not by the hour, which encourages fast work without regard for the welfare of the sheep. Says one eyewitness, "[T]he shearing shed must be one of the worst places in the world for cruelty to animals … I have seen shearers punch sheep with their shears or their fists until the sheep's nose bled. I have seen sheep with half their faces shorn off …"

In Australia, where more than 50 percent of the world's merino wool—which is used in products ranging from clothing to carpets—originates, lambs are forced to endure a gruesome procedure called "mulesing," in which huge chunks of skin and flesh are cut from the animals' backsides, often without any painkillers.

Within weeks of birth, lambs' ears are hole-punched, their tails are chopped off, and the males are castrated without anesthetics. Male lambs are castrated when they are between 2 and 8 weeks old, either by making an incision and cutting their testicles out or with a rubber ring used to cut off blood supply—one of the most painful methods of castration possible. Every year, hundreds of lambs die before the age of 8 weeks from exposure or starvation, and mature sheep die every year from disease, lack of shelter, and neglect.

Millions of these sheep who survive on the farms are then shipped to the Middle East on crowded multilevel ships. These live exports, which can last for weeks, go to countries where animal welfare standards are non-existent. The suffering sheep are dragged off the ships, loaded onto trucks, and dragged by their ears and legs to often unregulated slaughterhouses, where their throats are slit while they are still conscious.

No amount of fluff can hide the fact that anyone who buys wool supports a cruel and bloody industry. There are plenty of durable, stylish, and warm fabrics available that aren't made from wool or animal skins.

If you decide to stop eating meat for the sake of animals, you should also stop using clothes and furniture made of leather and wool.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

If you decide to stop eating meat for the sake of animals, you should also stop using clothes and furniture made of leather and wool.

Well not really, that's for each person to decide.

 

[kid ness]

I've been a vegetarian for about three years now, and I chose to be one based on the horrible mistreatment of animals in the food industry.

I have no problem with people who eat meat. I do, however, have a problem with those who pressure me to give them a reason for why I have become a vegetarian, and proceed to give me shit for it. I end up just saying "personal reasons."

Once I was offered pepperoni pizza. I politely said, "No thanks." My other friend informed the guy who offered me pizza that I was a vegetarian. And then I was asked, "Do you throw paint on people who wear fur?"

It's not so black and white. There aren't only the people who eat meat happily, and those who would be willing to attack you if you ate meat. While I might personally object to wearing fur, I respect another person's decision to choose to wear it. Essentially, it's none of my business. We all have a right to make our own decisions, if only we all could respect them.

 

[Melchiah]

Well not really, that's for each person to decide.

Yes, it's their decision whether they want to be hypocrites or not.

 

[RevenantKioku]

As someone who spent some time as a vegetarian, I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Yes, it's their decision whether they want to be hypocrites or not.

Such bollocks. It is not hypocritical at all.

These kind of attacks are really weak and unwarranted.

 

[BronzeWolf]

The arguments of sentience fly in the face of health concerns.

Specially because sentience is a purely human construct that arbitrary puts a line in the continuum of "intelligence" and "pain capability" that runs from simple viruses to humans, elephants and dolphins.

Health concerns are not at all subjective, with the amount of carbs and grain's antinutrient ingest being a very real problem.

Meat was and still is the most efficient way of eating what we need. Our body evolved to it. Give a young child the choice between meat and veggies, and he will choice meat. I think somebody did a controlled study on this. But still kind of anecdotal. You get my point.

Vegetarianism is a "feel good" philosophy based on an arbitrary concern. It has no plausibility on my mind

 

[Melchiah]

Such bollocks. It is not hypocritical at all.

These kind of attacks are really weak and unwarranted.

It's pathetic to take a shortcut in one's own ideology, and choose the parts that fit and ignore the parts that don't.

 

[Chinner]

thats cool, recently my uncle did something similar and decided to become a scientologist. anyway i hope everything works out.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

It's pathetic to take a shortcut in one's own ideology, and choose the parts that fit and ignore the parts that don't.

Don't presume you understand someone else's ideology. I don't pretend to completely understand my own.

Specially because sentience is a purely human construct that arbitrary puts a line in the continuum of "intelligence" and "pain capability" that runs from simple viruses to humans, elephants and dolphins.

Just because you have to pick a boundary on a continuum doesn't mean that the concern itself is arbitrary. Non sequitur.

With that kind of logic you could justify just about any behaviour.

 

[MWS Natural]

Dogs taste pretty good too I've heard, but would you eat them if their flesh smelled good when cooked?

If you would then I applaud you for your consistency.

If you wouldn't then the why not is why I won't eat cows.

Yes. I really don't give a fuck about dogs or cats though. On topic, I've got to find some farmers markets here in FL, the health food stores are too expensive.

Grains are more my friends

I have read and been told that grains aren't good for you, are poisonous and our bodies are not designed to eat them.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

The animal is already dead though. By not eating meat you solve absolutely nothing - if anything, you are making the suffering of the animal go to complete waste by not eating it.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

The animal is already dead though. By not eating meat you solve absolutely nothing - if anything, you are making the suffering of the animal go to complete waste by not eating it.

Think about it as supply and demand.

 

[BronzeWolf]

Don't presume you understand someone else's ideology. I don't pretend to completely understand my own.


Just because you have to pick a boundary on a continuum doesn't mean that the concern itself is arbitrary. Non sequitur.

With that kind of logic you could justify just about any behaviour.

You could do that yes. But case in point is what's best for us as humans. You could say we could rape, kill and steal all we want. But it isn't very good for a functioning society so we try not to do that. Whether an animal suffers or not is pretty much irrelevant for society.

I agree that the less an animal suffers for it to get into my mouth, the better. BUT, if it means that it's best for our health (already diminished as it is due to a grain heavy, dietary fat fearing diet), then that line is of not much use.

PLUS, scared animals taste shittier

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

Think about it as supply and demand.

Yes, because one person not buying meat is going to make a huge difference on a planet of billions..

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Yes, because one person not buying meat is going to make a huge difference on a planet of billions..

It'll make exactly one-person's-worth of difference.

 

[Shanadeus]

It'll make exactly one-person's-worth of difference.

Gold.

 

[BronzeWolf]

Gold.

Sounds cute, but in actuality, because the meat industry is subsidized, it will accomplish zero. Not 0.0000000001, zero

 

[BertramCooper]

I've just reached the conclusion that cows, pigs and fowl posses the important qualities I find in dogs, cats and other "common" pets - meaning that I can't eat them just as I cannot eat my pet bird or a cute cat.

See, here's the thing.

I grew up with livestock. I've raised animals from birth and bawled my eyes out when they died. You will not find a person more concerned for the welfare of these animals than me, and that includes any vegan or vegetarian out there.

But if you ask me if I would have any reservations about eating them, I'd respond by saying, "Absolutely not." I've eaten animals that I've named and cared for. It's just a matter of perspective, really.

I encourage people to get out and visit farms. And yes, that includes the ever-dreaded "factory farms" (which is a purely pejorative term and has no actual meaning). It can be difficult, but it's not that hard. In my experience, most farmers are more than happy to prove to consumers that they care for their animals. It's just getting people there that's challenging. Find a local agricultural organization - a county Farm Bureau or an ag extension office is a great place to start - and meet some farmers.

 

[CabbageRed]

Isn't Quorn made from some smelly fungus they grow in huge vats? I would rather use tofu, zucchini and actual mushrooms.

Fusarium venenatum is displeased with your wording.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Sounds cute, but in actuality, because the meat industry is subsidized, it will accomplish zero. Not 0.0000000001, zero

Wrong again, you think being subsidized makes an industry immune to economic forces?

 

[BronzeWolf]

See, here's the thing.

I grew up with livestock. I've raised animals from birth and bawled my eyes out when they died. You will not find a person more concerned for the welfare of these animals than me, and that includes any vegan or vegetarian out there.

But if you ask me if I would have any reservations about eating them, I'd respond by saying, "Absolutely not." I've eaten animals that I've named and cared for. It's just a matter of perspective, really.

I encourage people to get out and visit farms. And yes, that includes the ever-dreaded "factory farms" (which is a purely pejorative term and has no actual meaning). It can be difficult, but it's not that hard. In my experience, most farmers are more than happy to prove to consumers that they care for their animals. It's just getting people there that's challenging. Find a local agricultural organization - a county Farm Bureau or an ag extension office is a great place to start - and meet some farmers.

I have found that the people that argue more about the animals, are actually the people that are less in touch with them.

They love the IDEA of an animal, more than anything

Wrong again, you think being subsidized makes an industry immune to economic forces?

That's the whole point of subsidizing something, to shield it from economic forces. When PRODUCING something is cheaper than NOT PRODUCING IT, it doesn't matter if someone buys it or not. Thus the reason so many food is wasted and you get people staying on unproductive land.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

That's the whole point of subsidizing something, to shield it from economic forces. When PRODUCING something is cheaper than NOT PRODUCING IT, it doesn't matter if someone buys it or not. Thus the reason so many food is wasted and you get people staying on unproductive land.

Immune from economic forces? Really? Hardly. The amount of meat produced is not arbitrary. With zero demand there would not be a meat industry. With a higher demand there would be more meat produced. Industry subsidies are an important topic, but are a complete red-herring in this context.

 

[Shanadeus]

See, here's the thing.

I grew up with livestock. I've raised animals from birth and bawled my eyes out when they died. You will not find a person more concerned for the welfare of these animals than me, and that includes any vegan or vegetarian out there.

But if you ask me if I would have any reservations about eating them, I'd respond by saying, "Absolutely not." I've eaten animals that I've named and cared for. It's just a matter of perspective, really.

I encourage people to get out and visit farms. And yes, that includes the ever-dreaded "factory farms" (which is a purely pejorative term and has no actual meaning). It can be difficult, but it's not that hard. In my experience, most farmers are more than happy to prove to consumers that they care for their animals. It's just getting people there that's challenging. Find a local agricultural organization - a county Farm Bureau or an ag extension office is a great place to start - and meet some farmers.

It really is just a matter of perspective like you say, I fully agree with you on that.
I really don't have a problem with you eating an animal as you've raised it well and have cared for it for what I presume is a relatively long life (especially if you compare to the animal's natural lifespan in the wild). In these cases I feel that it's just a personal perspective on whether or not you can eat this animal that you've cared for and raised.

I wouldn't be able to eat it because I'm an emotional person and it'd "almost" be like eating any other family member in my mind. I would pay my respects by letting it be and leaving it's flesh untouched just as I do with other animals (aka, family) that die and feel close to.

But with that said I'd still prefer it if milk cows were allowed to "retire" and stroll great fields of grass when they can no longer supply milk rather than being killed. I personally feel that their happiness and letting them live and die like humans is more important than the economy of selling off old milk cows for meat.

Sure, you might not be able to keep milk cows in the first place if you allowed them to retire because of how un-economic it'd be and that's why I still have some problem with milk products.

Anyhow, I won't be arguing for the meat industry to cease or for others to stop meat when I know that we'll soon enough have technology that'll solve all of these problems and allow us to eat meat without having to kill - through meat cloning that is.

 

[Mar]

Good for you man. I went vegetarian for about 4 months and loved it, I was never tempted by meat either as vegetarian food is just so good. I did it mainly to try new foods and I ate so much awesome stuff, stuff that otherwise I wouldn't have given a second glance because it had the evil 'vegetarian' sign on it.

I recently stopped however because, late at night after drinking many a beer, it was difficult to find something to snack on. I got really sick of eating hot chips. I think in the end if you want to go vegetarian for the long haul you need to be motivated to prepare your own foods. I'm a lazy bastard.

I still find well made vegetarian food better than any meal with meat in it. It's just not easy to get hold of.

Edit: Oh, and be prepared for otherwise rational people to suddenly think you're a freak of nature. It's really quite disturbing how some people view vegetarianism. Like you've walked into their house, raped their wife and killed their dog, and spat on their religion. It's utterly odd.

 

[BertramCooper]

But with that said I'd still prefer it if milk cows were allowed to "retire" and stroll great fields of grass when they can no longer supply milk rather than being killed. I personally feel that their happiness and letting them live and die like humans is more important than the economy of selling off old milk cows for meat.

I understand this view, but it's just not realistic.

Cattle are not humans. They are at the bottom of the food chain. Non-domesticated cattle do not "retire," they are eaten when they become too weak to fend for themselves. And as I've stated in other threads, a captive bolt gun to the head is a far more pleasant way to die than getting ripped to shreds by wolves.

So really, I don't see culling old dairy cattle as dramatically different than what would happen in nature, and it's arguably a much more pleasant way for them to die.

 

[Shanadeus]

I understand this view, but it's just not realistic.

Cattle are not humans. They are at the bottom of the food chain. Non-domesticated cattle do not "retire," they are eaten when they become too weak to fend for themselves. And as I've stated in other threads, a captive bolt gun to the head is a far more pleasant way to die than getting ripped to shreds by wolves.

So really, I don't see culling old dairy cattle as dramatically different as what would happen in nature, and it's arguably a much more pleasant way for them to die.

I accept that it's not realistic and probably not economically viable unless the market for milk from cows that aren't later slaughtered grows big enough to support higher prices in order to accommodate this.

But I doubt that people would want to pay maybe twice-thrice the price just so that some cows can live on for a couple of more years.

Which is why I suppose you have to cull old dairy cows, it's a necessity in order to stay competitive in today's milk business.

I don't really blame you or anyone else so long as they at least give the cows good care that's at the very least better than what most wild animals endure.

 

[Medalion]

Go vegan... I hear they get awesome psychic powahs

 

[ianp622]

Immune from economic forces? Really? Hardly. The amount of meat produced is not arbitrary. With zero demand there would not be a meat industry. With a higher demand there would be more meat produced. Industry subsidies are an important topic, but are a complete red-herring in this context.

Again, you have no idea how much food is wasted, and subsidization makes it worse. Subsidization says, "Don't worry if this will sell, just produce it no matter what."

Yes, if everybody stopped eating meat, nobody would produce it. But you need a huge number of people to stop eating meat to make any difference, just as you would need a large surge in consumption to make a difference. As I said before, there are a number of spots along the chain where food is discarded - from farm to packing facility, from packing facility to supermarket, and finally at the consumer's home. Until we've amassed what would essentially be a nationwide boycott, we'll continue to throw out perfectly good meat and we'll continue to let subsidized food rot.