Go with the enhanced editions imo. Your call really. But those games are literally what got me into gaming in the first place. Really, good games.
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I've never played a (real) CRPG. Where should I start?
- Thread starter Abdul Hafeez
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Go with the enhanced editions imo. Your call really. But those games are literally what got me into gaming in the first place. Really, good games.
Either Pillars (rtwp,basically combat doesn't stop until you hit pause) or OS (turn-based) if you want something modern that tries to emulate the past. You can also give Planescape a try, once you get the resolution mod the only "bump" on the way is the interface.
I can see how BG2 with its perma-death and tach0 can be a tad overwhelming to someone not used to them.
I can see how BG2 with its perma-death and tach0 can be a tad overwhelming to someone not used to them.
I started with Divinity Original Sin when it came out. I've been working my way backwards now to see what I've missed out on. My recommendation is to start with either Pillars or Divinit and see if you really like cRPGs. I prefer Pillars for the story, but Divinity for the combat. Both are so good though.
Personally original + basic bugfixes/QoL mods because 1) it's the most true to the original developer intentions 2) the I.E. new characters are baaaaaaad imo
There is an in-game tutorial technically,
This said, there are only 3-4 stuff you really need to know, which are 1) tach0 2) AC 3) A general understanding of the magic system (Magic missile is broken, you need a cleric to remove level drain). Other stuff you can learn along the way or they are so widely know at this point they infiltrated into other games rule-sets (You need fire or acid to kill trolls yo)
Planescape doesn't really rely much on D&D, I mean it's there but the game has very few mandatory fights, so it's much more relaxing to play. (BG2 on other hand has shitons of creatures, magic fights and items, and I mean A LOT)
Tekomandor
Member
It really isn't, though the fact that it's not a half assed port of dated ruleset (I kid, I kid) might make it seem that way. It is pretty mindless on easy, but then that's rather the point of playing on easy, isn't it?
As for your question, I'd recommend Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut. It's got great writing and gameplay that's fun, challenging, and easy to learn. Also it's currently like $3 on steam.
There's also all of the classic ones from 1988 to around 1995, people tend to overlook them compared to the more modern ones like Fallout 2 and Buldur's Gate. Eye of the Beholder, Might & Magic World of Xeen, Pool of Radiance, Ultima 7, Ambermoon/Amberstar, Ravenloft, Menzoberranzan, Dark Sun etc. Gog has them all.
Gurgelhals
Member
Another vote for Shadowrun: Dragonfall Director's Cut here. It's highly accessible and, most importantly, it has a character system that is very easy to understand and where it is highly unlikely that you'll mess up your build.
Most CRPGs will scare off newcomers to the genre at the character creation screen, Pillars of Eternity and Divinity included (of all the more recent games, Wasteland 2 is clearly the most challenging in that respect. The number of available skills and attributes in that game is nothing short of overwhelming at first and the game expects you to build an entire party of four characters from scratch). Shadowrun keeps this initial hurdle fairly low, so it's a really good entry point for newcomers. It is also a genuinely great game with excellent writing and tons of atmosphere.
And some general advice: If character creation and building seems too daunting to you, just check out some tutorials / guides on youtube or on steam. There are usually quite a lot of them that give some very good hints about how to build a character / a party that both works and is fun to play.
Most CRPGs will scare off newcomers to the genre at the character creation screen, Pillars of Eternity and Divinity included (of all the more recent games, Wasteland 2 is clearly the most challenging in that respect. The number of available skills and attributes in that game is nothing short of overwhelming at first and the game expects you to build an entire party of four characters from scratch). Shadowrun keeps this initial hurdle fairly low, so it's a really good entry point for newcomers. It is also a genuinely great game with excellent writing and tons of atmosphere.
And some general advice: If character creation and building seems too daunting to you, just check out some tutorials / guides on youtube or on steam. There are usually quite a lot of them that give some very good hints about how to build a character / a party that both works and is fun to play.
Yes, it refered to computer adaptions of DnD (or similar) tabletop RPGs. These days it mostly refers to PC (M/KB) focused RPGs that have deep stats systems as well as choices & consequances.
Abdul Hafeez
Member
Well, it certainly doesn't sound impenetrable. Nice to hear that Planescape doesn't require you to engage with combat all the time. It would be crazy if all the classic games were combat heavy.
I generally don't like dungeon crawlers without story, but I've heard good things about Legend of Grimrock so I might check it out.
I wonder how easy it is to get into those games though. There seem to be quite a few people who have gone back to the late 90s games and had good results. It would probably be harder to go back to the 80s.
Yeah, I guess I was defining CRPGs a bit too narrowly. I was thinking isometric=CRPG due to all the new games being in that old style. My mistake.
And a lot of people are saying Shadowrun so I'll check that out too. Thanks!
saveweyard
Banned
It's a term usually used to refer to computer games derived from pen and paper role playing games. Like most genre classifications, the name doesn't really make a lot of sense. Like, what the heck is an adventure game? That name literally conveys no information other than an adventure will be had, and yet people know it to mean an interactive story-based puzzle solving game. Except then you have these "Walking Simulators" like Gone Home which are like adventure games but not really and so they get this new name, meant to be derogatory at first but now embraced by the dev community. Defining genres is hard, yo.
Abdul Hafeez
Member
Yeah, I'm too interested in the genre to let intense character creation screens scare me off so easily. Although it would be nice if the games just provided some existing character templates that have a good balance.
Once you get past the UI they aren't really any more difficult than modern games. If you can get into Fallout 1 I'd say Ultima 7 and Dark Sun should be easy enough. You can also try stuff like Ultima Underworld and System Shock, they influenced modern games pretty dramatically so you'll see plenty of parallels there.
That would be a pretty accurate genre definition for Planescape Torment.
Abdul Hafeez
Member
If the UI is the only major issue then I could probably give it a try at some point.
That's pretty short compared to the other games. Maybe I'll just try this one first and then Pillars.
Abdul Hafeez
Member
Great seeing so many SRF recommendations. Fantastic run! Look at these criminals? How can you not like them?
Seriously though I think it is the safest and most accessible while still being a superb game. Obviously I am biased though, SR avatar and all. >.>
Since so many people are mentioning SR
F, are the other two SR games worth playing? Returns and Hong Kong, I mean.I'm in a bit of the same situation and a while ago I noticed that there kinda aren't any "good" old school CRPGs to ease people in. I think people are suggesting the newer ones for this reason.
I went back and played a lot of the first person ones like Ultima Underworld, Arx Fatalis, Deus Ex 1, and System Shock 2 (different kind of game I know), but still haven't played any of the isometric games. I have copies of games like Fallout 1 & 2, Wasteland 1, and all those D&D classics sitting on my hard drive and/or Steam account. I actually want to start at the "beginning" with Wasteland 1 just to see if I don't completely run into a wall with it. I was able to get the hang of UU1, but only after studying the manual for three days. Same with Elite 1.
If I find myself way out of my depth with Baldur's Gate and the like, I may instead pick up Pillars and Original Sin since those seem to have actually been made to ease new people in from what I hear.
I went back and played a lot of the first person ones like Ultima Underworld, Arx Fatalis, Deus Ex 1, and System Shock 2 (different kind of game I know), but still haven't played any of the isometric games. I have copies of games like Fallout 1 & 2, Wasteland 1, and all those D&D classics sitting on my hard drive and/or Steam account. I actually want to start at the "beginning" with Wasteland 1 just to see if I don't completely run into a wall with it. I was able to get the hang of UU1, but only after studying the manual for three days. Same with Elite 1.
If I find myself way out of my depth with Baldur's Gate and the like, I may instead pick up Pillars and Original Sin since those seem to have actually been made to ease new people in from what I hear.
Yeah, Shadowrun Hongkong isn't as good as Dragonfall but it's still a good game. Also the length in the games is just right when it hovers in the 20 hour mark, personally i hope that more crpgs like that would come out. Not every rpg needs to be +50 hours, you could tell a lot more personal stories in a lot shorter amount of time.
Since so many people are mentioning SR
Hong Kong is great and second to Dragonfall but I feel the pacing is a bit off and I found the story too predictable in some areas and the plot twists to be less impactful. Still a great game and wonderfully written. I loved the changes they made to some of the classes, mostly the melee cyborg stuff turns you into a machine. The characters are excellent as well. Each unique and interesting with the exception of Duncan in my opinion but even then he isn't that bad and poking fun at a guy who looks like he'll explode into a gunfight can be amusing.
Shadowruns Returns is the first game. It is pretty good but I think it is a tier below the other two. Still worth playing if you like the setting and genre. Since the patches that brought a bunch of QOL features such as save slots and bug fixes I can't think of a reason to say you shouldn't play it other than the fact that the other two are better.
Each is a standalone story.
FlyingSaucer
Banned
Shadowrun is clearly on the wargamey side of Crpg thought.
Play Grimrock for the puzzles, or Divinity OS for something unlinear with lots of choices and freedom.
You have great taste.
Just, why no IV or V ? Or Underworld ?
Play Grimrock for the puzzles, or Divinity OS for something unlinear with lots of choices and freedom.
You have great taste.
Just, why no IV or V ? Or Underworld ?
superseohyun
Member
Why not fallout 2?
Abdul Hafeez
Member
Yeah, I think most games, regardless of genre, would benefit from reduced length. More focused games are usually a better overall experience than games that try to do too much and end up doing a lot of things poorly. But if a game can justify a long time with unique content that isn't padding or filler, then I'm all for that.
It's nice to hear the other two are good. But if Dragonfall is the best out of the three, I'll just stick with that one first. I don't want to spend time playing something when a similar game is available and better.
Abdul Hafeez
Member
As a first timer? Is it as accessible as the modern games?
FlyingSaucer
Banned
Might and Magic X is a great game, but absolutely not something a beginner should play.
I know from the SR:HK OT that some prefer HK over DF. I personally think some of the missions and combat is a bit better in HK. My preferences is not really definitive.
Companions... >_> I like them all.
Sir Garbageman
Member
Divinity Original Sin, Pillars of Eternity, or Shadowrun Dragonfall are all great places to start.
I've played a lot of RPGs on the PC. If I had to pick one to play today (having never played any of them before), it'd be Baldur's Gate 2.
There are many games that do individual things better than Baldur's Gate 2 (PS:T has better writing, Ultima VII has superior characterization, etc.) but no other game in the genre is better as a whole than Baldur's Gate 2. It is a journey; so few games are a journey. Many are long and detailed and otherwise demand your attention for a long time, but Baldur's Gate 2 is so well-realized in every aspect that it stays with you like a memory and not just a game. It also has great combat and does an excellent job of not letting you get bogged down in inventory and stat screens.
It is fairly accessible, but it's my opinion that accessibility is not that important in this genre since the runtime for most of the computer RPGs worth playing is in the dozens of hours. You don't need a background in AD&D to play Baldur's Gate but you will need to do some light reading on mechanics over the course of the game.
It also doesn't really matter what version you play. I'm not really a fan of EE but some people find it easier to get stable, whereas the original games can cause problems.
My second choice would be Ultima VII. It's only not number one because the combat is really wonky. I'm convinced that it's otherwise the most immersive piece of software yet released.
There are many games that do individual things better than Baldur's Gate 2 (PS:T has better writing, Ultima VII has superior characterization, etc.) but no other game in the genre is better as a whole than Baldur's Gate 2. It is a journey; so few games are a journey. Many are long and detailed and otherwise demand your attention for a long time, but Baldur's Gate 2 is so well-realized in every aspect that it stays with you like a memory and not just a game. It also has great combat and does an excellent job of not letting you get bogged down in inventory and stat screens.
It is fairly accessible, but it's my opinion that accessibility is not that important in this genre since the runtime for most of the computer RPGs worth playing is in the dozens of hours. You don't need a background in AD&D to play Baldur's Gate but you will need to do some light reading on mechanics over the course of the game.
It also doesn't really matter what version you play. I'm not really a fan of EE but some people find it easier to get stable, whereas the original games can cause problems.
My second choice would be Ultima VII. It's only not number one because the combat is really wonky. I'm convinced that it's otherwise the most immersive piece of software yet released.
paperspace
Member
I'm looking at Shadowfall Returns, Dragonfall and Hong Kong, and I'm trying to figure out if they are tied together or are completely separate. I wonder, is it so fucking hard to convey this in the description on the store or something?
edit: instead, the only thing they're bothered to shove up in my face is "LOOK AT ALL THIS NEW CONTENT! TRADING CARDS! ACHIEVEMENTS!". Yeah, ok thanks.
edit: instead, the only thing they're bothered to shove up in my face is "LOOK AT ALL THIS NEW CONTENT! TRADING CARDS! ACHIEVEMENTS!". Yeah, ok thanks.
I wouldn't recommend a newbie to the genre starting with such a high level campaign
Standalone self contained stories/campaigns in each of them. Get the one you want.
Edit. I guess there are some minor references here and there which is to be expected when it is set in the same world and one game comes out later. Devs tend to add in some little sneaky bits that you may catch if you pay attention to the dialogue or random discussions on the in game forum. Not essential to enjoy the game but pretty neat. The order goes Returns, Dragonfall, HK. Returns is the weakest of the bunch so if you're only getting one consider skipping this one and looking at the other two.
I'd recommend Shadowrun: Dragonfall and Hong Kong to start out. They're not terribly complex so it's not a bad way to ease yourself into the genre, but they're still high quality RPG's. Two of the best I've played in years actually.
After that, I'd say maybe Fallout 1 and 2.
After that, I'd say maybe Fallout 1 and 2.
They can be enjoyed without playing the others. Play Dragonfall and then Hong Kong.
When I think of cRPG I think of old school top down RPG's like Baldurs Gate, Divinity, Pillars, not the Witcher. Iv never played Pillars but I actually meant I disagree with what you said about Divinity having an extremely high learning curve. I just didnt think it took all that long to get to grips with it, but thats just my opinion.
AmethystEnd
Member
I like IV and V as well, though IV's combat gets really tedious. VI is my favorite of the age of enlightenment trilogy though so it's the one I thought to mention.
I admit I haven't played Underworld. I've only played Ultima 1-8, and I started 9 but never finished it.
I just got done playing Shadowrun Returns and Dragonfall DC and I was surprised how much more combat there was in Dragonfall than SR. Every mission in Dragonfall felt like it had 2-3x the number of enemies as I was used to facing in the previous game. And way too many of the missions were nothing but combat slogs where it was room after room loaded with enemies, reinforcements, etc. I hope Hong Kong is more like the first game.
Shai-Tan
Banned
if you don't mind mild spoilers it might help to have a look at the class of the different companions which would narrow down the possibilities if you don't want overlap between party members
Fallout 1 is a great place to start. It doesn't have overcomplicated stats or systems and it's not too long. It can be finished in 15-20 hours.
Otherwise, RPG Codex top 70 is a great list.
Otherwise, RPG Codex top 70 is a great list.
bati
Member
Tank paladin is a very strong choice. Focus on intelligence, resolve (highest) and maybe perception. This way you end up with a great conversationalist who's also competent in combat. I recommend you hop over to the official forums and check out some guides for this type of character and then decide between the 'overall' and minmax type of character.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
CRPG is like JRPG: too often it is used in a "no true scotsman" manner for ulterior motives.
Anywho, from another lineage of CRPG than the Ultima/Might & Magic/Infinity Engine molds, Legend of Grimrock 2!
Simple controls, complex and expertly crafted application. Like with Divinity and Pillars, updating what really got fixed in the interrum from what they throwback to without tossing out any of the great parts.
This. That's one of the reason this recent renaissance is so effective, they didn't throw out any of the delicious intricacy and agency, AND we live in the innnnernet age so you can get help at your fingertips to tame these great beasts as needed! Huzzah!
Anywho, from another lineage of CRPG than the Ultima/Might & Magic/Infinity Engine molds, Legend of Grimrock 2!
Simple controls, complex and expertly crafted application. Like with Divinity and Pillars, updating what really got fixed in the interrum from what they throwback to without tossing out any of the great parts.
This. That's one of the reason this recent renaissance is so effective, they didn't throw out any of the delicious intricacy and agency, AND we live in the innnnernet age so you can get help at your fingertips to tame these great beasts as needed! Huzzah!
Shadowrun: Dragonfall is an excellent introduction. Great writing, easy mechanics.
Divinity: Original Sin is pretty great too. While the mechanics can be complex, the interface is nice and modern and it plays so well that it's a joy to learn. Just make sure you take a glance at a beginner's tips article since some of the concepts may be strange for someone unfamiliar with CRPGs.
Might and Magic X is easy to pick up and it's legit brilliant. Game was unfairly overlooked.
Not sure if I'd consider Legend of Grimrock 2 a CRPG but whatever, I love it to death. It's beautiful and the puzzles are a lot of fun.
Divinity: Original Sin is pretty great too. While the mechanics can be complex, the interface is nice and modern and it plays so well that it's a joy to learn. Just make sure you take a glance at a beginner's tips article since some of the concepts may be strange for someone unfamiliar with CRPGs.
Might and Magic X is easy to pick up and it's legit brilliant. Game was unfairly overlooked.
Not sure if I'd consider Legend of Grimrock 2 a CRPG but whatever, I love it to death. It's beautiful and the puzzles are a lot of fun.
FunkyDealer
Banned
Should one have played System Shock 1 first? Or can I just jump in to the second?