He doesn't hate stories. He just understands that stopping the adventure that the player is actively experiencing to read about what a wonderful adventure he is having is pointless.
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Iwata Asks - Paper Mario sticker star
- Thread starter JazzmanZ
- Start date
heh
well i guess you're right. i didn't want to preface my post with "this is just my opinion" since i thought it was expected.
i really did hate this game though. with a goddamn passion. it was fun but very frustrating, there was no story to speak off... it felt very soulless, and playing through it just made me want to play through PM1, TTYD and even SPM again.
Plenty of people are enjoying it, but I don't think it's fair to characterize those who aren't as being unable to separate their disappointment due to expectations from some nebulous "quality factor." Some things about the game just don't work for everyone.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Is it really pointless if millions of people enjoyed it that way for two games?
WiiRevolution1
Member
I don't own SS yet but...
Dat Mario RPG 64 picture. Dayum. Looks awesome.
wtf? SPM's story was awesome. It was such a great game. Sad to hear SS cuts the story...
Dat Mario RPG 64 picture. Dayum. Looks awesome.
GeneralManager
Member
No more partners or new characters. You have plenty of different colored toads to use.
Also, no story. Or RPG.
Just Stickers.
Bye.
Also, no story. Or RPG.
Just Stickers.
Bye.
Yes. The number one rule of writing is show, don't tell. With video games, it should be play, don't watch.
All this Sticker Star hatin' and Miyamoto bashing in this thread only serves to remind me of one thing: most gamers get so stuck on their feelings of entitlement that they simply cannot enjoy a great game because of them. It's a shame.
Sticker Star is a fantastic game, filled with hilarious situations and even more hilarious dialogue. Most importantly, its game structure is perfect for short bursts of gameplay that leave you satisfied no matter how little time you've spent on it. I'm 23 hours in already... Can't remember when was the last time a game captured me that way.
Sticker Star is a fantastic game, filled with hilarious situations and even more hilarious dialogue. Most importantly, its game structure is perfect for short bursts of gameplay that leave you satisfied no matter how little time you've spent on it. I'm 23 hours in already... Can't remember when was the last time a game captured me that way.
EmCeeGramr
Member
You played just fine in the past Paper Mario games, and they had stories. Rules are more like guidelines, and if the creator and the audience is happy with the result, then whatever breach of game design dogma that's supposedly been committed is meaningless.
That's certainly true for some games, but trying to apply basically any rule to everything under a media umbrella will just lead to homogenization. One of the great things about gaming is the variety. There are games with no text, and there are games that are all text, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
clay_ghost
Member
So that why papermario have so little dialog......
Its still a nice adventure game, not really feeling the rpg. More like zelda where you have to explore and get hearts containers.
Love super paper mario too..... who complained in club Nintendo T.T
Its still a nice adventure game, not really feeling the rpg. More like zelda where you have to explore and get hearts containers.
Love super paper mario too..... who complained in club Nintendo T.T
All this Sticker Star hatin' and Miyamoto bashing in this thread only serves to remind me of one thing: most gamers get so stuck on their feelings of entitlement that they simply cannot enjoy a great game because of them. It's a shame.
Sticker Star is a fantastic game, filled with hilarious situations and even more hilarious dialogue. Most importantly, its game structure is perfect for short bursts of gameplay that leave you satisfied no matter how little time you've spent on it. I'm 23 hours in already... Can't remember when was the last time a game captured me that way.
It is a great game. I just hope some of its more questionable design choices don't spill over into the next Mario RPG.
I find this view of gaming to be very narrow minded.
Green Mamba
Member
Jeez, how few hilarious situations are there?
I haven't been able to play SS yet but I imagine I wouldn't really like the direction they went in with story/dialogue after hearing what people are saying. I still definitely plan on playing it though at some point. I just know if I got it now I probably would start it and then set it down for far too long.
I played SPM back around when it came out and enjoyed the game for the most part. I don't remember disliking the story but at this point I remember literally nothing about it if that says anything.
I would kill to see that Mario RPG 64 released though. I absolutely love the aesthetics of it *_*
I played SPM back around when it came out and enjoyed the game for the most part. I don't remember disliking the story but at this point I remember literally nothing about it if that says anything.
I would kill to see that Mario RPG 64 released though. I absolutely love the aesthetics of it *_*
ShironRedshift
Member
Pretty much. I loved the silly stuff in SPM, like the dialog between Peach and Francis before the fight with him and Bowser's interactions with the various characters. And then pretty much everything revolving around Mr. L and Dimentio. I'm enjoying Sticker Star from what I've played of it so far, but with the large part of the character interaction just coming from various Toads and other characters not really getting much of a chance to shine like you said, it really does feel like something's missing. I mean, the game has characters like Kamek, but when he does show up, he's basically there-and-gone, and Bowser just suffers terribly from how little screen time he has. Definitely not a trend I'd like to see continue.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I'd honestly like to see the next (portable!) Zelda take the approach of Sticker Star.
Zelda with a world-map. Each level would be basically a mini-dungeon obstacle course, with the final level of each world being a full-scale dungeon.
I'd buy it.
Zelda with a world-map. Each level would be basically a mini-dungeon obstacle course, with the final level of each world being a full-scale dungeon.
I'd buy it.
chickdigger802
Banned
paladin mario.
fucking weird shit man.
fucking weird shit man.
He kind of does hate stories actually, at least in mario games. Developers had to beg to get storybook tale with Rosalina's backstory into SMG. Even when it was finally allowed in the game they were forced to tuck it away into a nook of the hub world.
And of course, Miyamoto got his way with SMG2 ensuring that there was no story or hub world.
I loved both galaxy games, but the removal of those elements were a detriment in my opinion.
Exactly. Sticker Star has less text, and it would behoove you to accept that for what it is and enjoy the very well made, lovingly crafted adventure as is rather than wishing it were something it obviously wasn't trying to be.
I hope you believe me when I say that I was being facetious when I called him a liar (I am well aware of Miyamoto ninja scrapping ideas too >_>). I mean my overreaction is genuine sure, but I'm not the type of person to insult game designers like that. At least not the ones I respect to be precise. I'd be lying if the game didn't have charm, but it just doesn't compare to previous paper mario games and that depresses the hell out of me.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Not at all, I'm completely serious.
I think a Zelda game with a World/Level structure like Sticker Star would work quite well. I wouldn't want it to become the norm, certainly, but it'd be nice to see one of the non-mainline consoles do it.
You know, every level would be full of its own unique puzzles and a unifying theme, and there'd be multiple levels taking advantage of each item so none of the gear would fill like useless junk.
That sounds awesome actually. Would buy.
Exploration was always the least enjoyable part of Zelda for me. Probably why Skyward Sword is my favourite.
Mario Galaxy didn't need a complicated story and thus Miyamoto didn't feel it was necessary to add more of it. People don't play Mario games for the story and some may even resent having to stop playing to listen to. Whether I think the story was well done or not, I have to admit that if that storybook was forced upon the player in unskippable segments, I think the game as a whole would suffer for it.
EmCeeGramr
Member
They play Paper Mario and other Mario RPGs for them, though.
The text stuff actually isn't really the main problem I have with Sticker Star, it's just a tangential thing I mentioned because it was the subject of the quote. I would probably still enjoy the game if I didn't feel like everything I was doing was meaningless. I don't feel compelled to explore the levels, or fight battles, because I don't really get anything out of it. When I exit a battle, I feel worse off than when I entered, because I now have fewer stickers and gained nothing but a handful of coins. I don't really feel like that particular aspect of the game is successful at all.
WOAH
Where do I get this.
The Awesomest
Member
I liked the story in SPM 
Pseudo_Sam
Survives without air, food, or water
Aha, bullshit. Setting limitations is a fantastic way to force yourself to focus on areas that you wouldn't otherwise. And it can be quite fun from a design standpoint.
Electivirus
Member
Story arguments aside, I really hope they take the paperize mechanic and have it return in future entries. It's quite neat and reminds me a lot of Okami's Celestial Brush mechanic.
See, I had that feeling at first, and then something clicked and I started having fun. I like the whole sticker battle system too, because it forces me to go against my inhibitions to store every majorly-good item I get till the end of the game, heh.
Spieler Eins
Member
Why was he even involved with some Intelligent Systems game? Bummer, often this approach is for the best, but Paper Mario had some really cool stories usually.
nintendoman58
Member
The sad thing is, he's probably learning from a lot of people who DON'T want long cutscenes in video games (FFXIII). What he's not learing is the fact that those games have "serious" stories while Paper Mario is all about saving the world from a Saturday morning cartoon villain while having a bunch of charming little comedic sub-plots for every world you go to.
So we've got Sticker Star and Epic Yarn. What's next? The Legend of Zelda: Magnificent Paper Mache?
Electivirus
Member
This as well. Using nothing but early-game stickers because I was afraid to use stronger stuff ended up getting me killed in later areas.
Huh? I mean before we even answer the question. Miyamoto is a Board of Director. That is god status at Nintendo next to Iwata. Then, he was a producer on the original Paper Mario, (he also dispensed some EAD guys to on the graphics design team of Paper Mario 64 according to the credits), and he is also a general supervisor of anything Mario related.
Is that enough?
For ther record. I despise most recent decisions he enforces on the development teams.
So what you are saying is that playing Sticker Star is not its own reward? You need some sort of extrinsic motivation - some sort of Skinner Box mentality - in order for you to "enjoy" the gameplay. I understand that game are typically made that way and you have been trained in that manner, but Nintendo games are about exploration.
For instance, you have limited stickers to encourage you to use different stickers in battle rather than just relying on the same old jump and hammer attacks. In that way, it is very successful. In a lot of RPGs, people hoard items and power ups for bosses because they are afraid of using a limited resource. With the coins and frequent sticker finds, you don't have to worry about that in Sticker Star. It's a brilliant solution to a problem I previously thought endemic to the RPG genre. You gotta use the good stuff - and your reward is more varied and enjoyable gameplay.
Well, I was never afraid to use stuff. Stickers come flowing in like water. The only time it caused me a problem was in the sphinx where I got legitimately lost and almost ran out of stickers since it was also hard to avoid the battles in the 2D section. I just feel like there isn't much of a reason to fight. Maybe it'd be a different story if the battles were more fun/varied, but sticker mechanic aside, it's actually less fun than other PMs because at least there you had a partner to switch out. I don't think the stickers themselves offer enough of a variation to be fun for the full duration of the game.
I think they've been mismatched. SPM is where the simplistic sticker approach and a bit less story would've worked a lot better. Whereas this was a turn-based RPG where the deeper battle system and story would've benefited. It's a shame, I really want to like Sticker Star but it's not really better than SPM due to how oversimplified they made things.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I never used the powerful stickers because they NEEDED to go into the Sticker Museum in Decalburg.
Damn games with collectible galleries.
Damn games with collectible galleries.
The trick to "getting" the game is realizing you need to choose carefully which stickers you use at all times. That means don't force yourself to unload the crap ones if you need to use stronger ones, but don't overdo it either. If you play this way, and use the battle spinner as needed, everything clicks and you'll generally have a plentiful stickerbook even when (or especially when!) engaging in battles frequently.
It's also not communicated well in the game, but the amount of battles you engage in directly affects the coins you earn not only during and after battle, but at the end of each level. Once you start reaching the better shops and the
Secret Door
Sticker Star isn't without flaws, but most of what people consider flaws are actually just birthed by playing the game like an RPG. This is only an RPG in the loosest of terms. It's a resource management adventure game.
RawkHawk2010
Member
For those saying story doesn't matter as long as the dialogue is good, what good is dialogue when there aren't even any characters to attribute it to?
"Hey guys, remember the witty remark that one toad standing by that one tree said that time?
(...guys?)"
Also:
"Well, as mentioned before, the mechanics present new challenges and the gameworld represents a new start. We worked hard so that this game would become the new standard for future Paper Mario games, so please play it to the fullest!"
"New standard?" Oh, fuck me.
"Hey guys, remember the witty remark that one toad standing by that one tree said that time?
(...guys?)"
Also:
"Well, as mentioned before, the mechanics present new challenges and the gameworld represents a new start. We worked hard so that this game would become the new standard for future Paper Mario games, so please play it to the fullest!"
"New standard?" Oh, fuck me.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Ditching the experience system was in general a bad idea.
I know about the coin rewards. It's not enough of a motivator for me.
And you're right, it's not an RPG, so it probably shouldn't really have lengthy RPG-style battles without a proper time:reward ratio. That's really what it's about for me.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
I am okay with this, if only if because there's a lot of room to expand upon.
gamergirly
Member
Not done with World 3 yet but the game is very engaging with some nice puzzle solving. My only gripe is sometimes the limited number of stickers and the fact you can get into a boss fight without having the correct "super stickers". The right sticker can make a big difference in the boss fight. Then you also have to look at how many pages of stickers you have. Its like the experience has been substituted for sticker management 
That's pretty fair, I think. I still enjoy the action command based Paper Mario battle system, even without direct character growth rewards, so it's not a big issue. With that said, I don't fight as many enemies as I would in other Paper Mario games, and just coming to grips with the fact that that's OK was part of the learning process.
I guess I didn't mind that stuff so much, but yet again, I spread out my playtime in my commuting so like, coming back to play here and there sporadically over the course of two weeks didn't feel that bad.
I can see where you're coming from on the partners though (and agree), and I too wish they were back because I loved their little stories and attitudes. If anything, despite their exclusion, I am happy they at least tried something different (and I think the whole concept of stickers in a paper world is at least novel enough for me), and while ultimately I think they could've made better choices regarding the game, I think the future direction of the series has lots of room for more innovation and experimentation (and the stickers were fun and I would've liked to see even more!).
Though, reading the IA, it seems like Miyamoto is the culprit :/