what are you talking about? the quote is from 2001 there weren't any "hardware peculiarities" on nintendo platforms, and maybe the games didn't took advantage of any of the hardware "gimmicks" but to say that they are "similiar" is just bullshit
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Iwata's thoughts on the industry
- Thread starter openrob
- Start date
what are you talking about? the quote is from 2001 there weren't any "hardware peculiarities" on nintendo platforms, and maybe the games didn't took advantage of any of the hardware "gimmicks" but to say that they are "similiar" is just bullshit
I understand what you mean but:
Ubisoft sequel:
Activision sequel:
Nintendo sequel:
This is disingenuous as hell considering there are a shit ton of similar New Super Mario Bros. sequels, Mario Galaxy 2 was Mario Galaxy 1.5, and 3d mario Word was very similar to 3d Mario land.....also the 5 year gap between sunshine and galaxy....dont even get me started on Mario Party...Nintendo is far more guilty of derivative/similar sequel than most companies
Nintendo likes to innovate and they also know when to take a gentle approach. Too much touch screen, wiimote, 3D, and asymmetric screen implementation would hurt the 2D Mario franchise. Those games all did use those things in ways that made sense for 2D Mario; you can touch the touch screen to activate powerups, they made use of the gyroscopes for spin moves and controlling certain obstacles, the 3D in NSMB2 looks nice...
They basically perfected Mario when they made SMB3, and every game made since then has been basically an attempt to improve perfection. Improvements in hardware allow new things to happen that weren't possible before like obstacles that move in very dynamic ways and an increased number in things happening on screen at once in addition to a nice bump in visuals.
And instead of pumping out 1 of these a year they've released 8 in the last 29 years. I think the problem Iwata is addressing is that devs make many sequels within a short span of time and on top of that other devs attempt to capitalize on that success by making very similar games.
Are you aware that the stuff you mentioned could be mapped to a button or have equivalent (and for most of the people way greater) benefits by being totally conventional in the hardware choices?
Imagine you are in 2007 and you are about to play Mario Galaxy for the first time, would you prefer playing the way we all know or with a PS3/360 level of graphics( like for example Sonic Generations) and with the spin mapped to a button instead of the wiggle of the wiimote?
Do you have a link to these statements?
This was on one of Nintendo's finance meetings regarding the 3DS and wanting to attain more international momentum. I believe this was during 2012, and it was surely before the Year of Luigi was announced. I believe this was also before New Super Mario Bros 2 was announced, but that I am not absolutely sure about.
I don't have a link, but I know for a fact there was a thread on GAF about this meeting and his comment about their reliance on the IP. I remember it vividly because after he said it, we had a massive influx Mario-franchise releases in 2012 and 2013 that eclipsed their usual output of games, which I saw as very strange at the time. Just in 2012 and 2013 alone we had a new Paper Mario, a new Mario and Luigi, Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon, Super Mario 3D World, and TWO New Super Mario Bros - both with DLC. Those are all major releases, and there's much smaller ones like Dr. Luigi, some sports titles, and Mario Party.
They've probably had the biggest output of games related to that franchise since the start of this generation.
This was on one of Nintendo's finance meetings regarding the 3DS and wanting to attain more international momentum. I believe this was during 2012, and it was surely before the Year of Luigi was announced. I believe this was also before New Super Mario Bros 2 was announced, but that I am not absolutely sure about.
I don't have a link, but I know for a fact there was a thread on GAF about this meeting and his comment about their reliance on the IP. I remember it vividly because after he said it, we had a massive influx Mario-franchise releases in 2012 and 2013 that eclipsed their usual output of games, which I saw as very strange at the time.
I see. Thanks for the info.
What I see:
PS4/XBO: Gran Turismo, Forza, Project Cars, Drive Club, The Crew, Need for Speed
(same homogenized garbage)
Wii U: Mario Kart 8
(similar to predecessor absolutely, but unique and vastly different to what the competitors are offering)
You can do this with every genre. Sports? Give me NBA Jam any day over its sim equivalent, but nope doesn't sell to the dudebros.
PS4/XBO: Gran Turismo, Forza, Project Cars, Drive Club, The Crew, Need for Speed
(same homogenized garbage)
Wii U: Mario Kart 8
(similar to predecessor absolutely, but unique and vastly different to what the competitors are offering)
You can do this with every genre. Sports? Give me NBA Jam any day over its sim equivalent, but nope doesn't sell to the dudebros.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
This is disingenuous as hell considering there are a shit ton of similar New Super Mario Bros. sequels, Mario Galaxy 2 was Mario Galaxy 1.5, and 3d mario Word was very similar to 3d Mario land.....also the 5 year gap between sunshine and galaxy
There have been 4 NSMB games. And they've been ONE per console. That's hardly a shit ton.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
What I see:
PS4/XBO: Gran Turismo, Forza, Project Cars, Drive Club, The Crew, Need for Speed
(same homogenized garbage)
Wii U: Mario Kart 8
(similar to predecessor absolutely, but unique and vastly different to what the competitors are offering)
You can do this with every genre. Sports? Give me NBA Jam any day over its sim equivalent, but nope doesn't sell to the dudebros.
Woah, some of these games you listed aren't even similar to each other: online open-world racing games, sim racers, arcade racers.
Homogenized as is: they use real cars and real locations? lol that's bullshit.
what are you talking about? the quote is from 2001 there weren't any "hardware peculiarities" on nintendo platforms, and maybe the games didn't took advantage of any of the hardware "gimmicks" but to say that they are "similiar" is just bullshit
So let me understand, you are actively denying that SMG looks the same or at least very similar to SMG2 and the same for 3DLand to 3DWorld?
Also if we are keeping the timeframe up until 2001 then the whole point is absolutely idiotic as there weren't annual releases of games like AC or CoD as in they weren't even born, all obviously aside of sports games who for obvious reasons had to be released yearly.
I think in 2001 the only one that could've been accused of doing sequels that looked the same was Capcom with MegaMan.
What I see:
PS4/XBO: Gran Turismo, Forza, Project Cars, Drive Club, The Crew, Need for Speed
(same homogenized garbage)
Wii U: Mario Kart 8
(similar to predecessor absolutely, but unique and vastly different to what the competitors are offering)
You can do this with every genre. Sports? Give me NBA Jam any day over its sim equivalent, but nope doesn't sell to the dudebros.
There may be some truth to your sentiment but your execution leaves something to be desired lol.
What I see:
PS4/XBO: Gran Turismo, Forza, Project Cars, Drive Club, The Crew, Need for Speed
(same homogenized garbage)
Wii U: Mario Kart 8
(similar to predecessor absolutely, but unique and vastly different to what the competitors are offering)
You can do this with every genre. Sports? Give me NBA Jam any day over its sim equivalent, but nope doesn't sell to the dudebros.
They tried. On both Wii and 360. It bombed.
I'm honestly shocked how spot on he is. Everything he said still applies today.
Iwata did nothing wrong.
What I see:
PS4/XBO: Gran Turismo, Forza, Project Cars, Drive Club, The Crew, Need for Speed
(same homogenized garbage)
Wii U: Mario Kart 8
(similar to predecessor absolutely, but unique and vastly different to what the competitors are offering)
You can do this with every genre. Sports? Give me NBA Jam any day over its sim equivalent, but nope doesn't sell to the dudebros.
Get out and get some fresh air.
They are not similar and MK 8 is the same game we have been playing for years... "similar but unique", that actually made my light out loud.
Terrible first post. 13 years later and almost all of his points are valid.
This
Arguing over how innovate game sequels are is completely pointless: Everyone is biased in favor of their favorites.
To the guy that plays Call of Duty but not Mario, every 2D Mario game is the same and every Call of Duty is different. The guy who plays 2D Mario, but not Call of Duty -- the opposite. You can fight over it all day, but you're ultimately just going in circles.
More generally about Nintendo's approach to game design: If you were to make a list of say the top 10 most influential games made between 1985 and 2000, probably 7 or 8 them would be Nintendo games.
However, if you made the same list for the years 2000-2014, I don't think a single Nintendo game would qualify. Nintendo's games are fun, and they still try new things every once in a while, but they just aren't what they once were.
To the guy that plays Call of Duty but not Mario, every 2D Mario game is the same and every Call of Duty is different. The guy who plays 2D Mario, but not Call of Duty -- the opposite. You can fight over it all day, but you're ultimately just going in circles.
More generally about Nintendo's approach to game design: If you were to make a list of say the top 10 most influential games made between 1985 and 2000, probably 7 or 8 them would be Nintendo games.
However, if you made the same list for the years 2000-2014, I don't think a single Nintendo game would qualify. Nintendo's games are fun, and they still try new things every once in a while, but they just aren't what they once were.
Woah, some of these games you listed aren't even similar to each other: online open-world racing games, sim racers, arcade racers.
Homogenized as is: they use real cars and real locations? lol that's bullshit.
Yep you can technically describe them as different, give them labels, one is an open world, one takes place on linear race tracks, they all have nuance in how the handling feels; but in the end it's variations of something I dislike and it feels like they're all evolving towards the same point. Go back in time and the difference between the franchises is larger.
Practically every game made by western AAA publishers, and now westernized Japanese AAA output, is converging to the same spot.
Much like how Nintendo games are mechanically different, but you still see comments like "lol Splatoon, Nintendo doesn't get it, this won't attract the CoD, Halo, BF, Gears audience. This only appeals to the Nintendo fanbase." Even though this is a completely new IP, and it's a TPS made internally by Nintendo. I totally understand the sentiment because the game appeals to me alot and I'm not a big fan of online shooters. It captures the essence I like about other Nintendo franchises. In much that same way, all western centric games are identical to me.
What about WiiSports and WiiFit?Arguing over how innovate game sequels are is completely pointless: Everyone is biased in favor of their favorites.
To the guy that plays Call of Duty but not Mario, every 2D Mario game is the same and every Call of Duty is different. The guy who plays 2D Mario, but not Call of Duty -- the opposite. You can fight over it all day, but you're ultimately just going in circles.
More generally about Nintendo's approach to game design: If you were to make a list of say the top 10 most influential games made between 1985 and 2000, probably 7 or 8 them would be Nintendo games.
However, if you made the same list for the years 2000-2014, I don't think a single Nintendo game would qualify. Nintendo's games are fun, and they still try new things every once in a while, but they just aren't what they once were.
Get out and get some fresh air.
They are not similar and MK 8 is the same game we have been playing for years... "similar but unique", that actually made my light out loud.
the only thing he said is that is unique because it offer something different than the competition, and it does, it is similar to its predecessors "absolutely" like he said
What I see:
PS4/XBO: Gran Turismo, Forza, Project Cars, Drive Club, The Crew, Need for Speed
(same homogenized garbage)
Wii U: Mario Kart 8
(similar to predecessor absolutely, but unique and vastly different to what the competitors are offering)
You can do this with every genre. Sports? Give me NBA Jam any day over its sim equivalent, but nope doesn't sell to the dudebros.
That's some heavy generalization.
How did you arrive at this?Gaming has always been and will always be a technologically-focused medium. Iwata rejecting that and choosing only to focus on games while technology changes what gaming means to people has been one of Nintendo's biggest mistakes.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Gaming has always been and will always be a technologically-focused medium.
That's highly debatable.
You can do this with every genre. Sports? Give me NBA Jam any day over its sim equivalent, but nope doesn't sell to the dudebros.
I'd play some NFL Blitz, some Mutant League anything, RoboFootball, or Baseball Allstars.
Here at Nintendo we fight these sequel trends. Hahahahaha
I'm not saying his points suck, but Nintendo are guilty of almost everything he complained about.
Man, get a cup of coffee please.
This video was released in 2001, of course there were some changes/mistakes were made since then but most of his statement is valid for today.
- Too much focus on graphics over real entertainment
- And almost every hit game playing on every console
But I guess you've nothing to complain about beside sequels ?
Like not, it's not true Sony say this good thing or Microsoft too ?
WrenchNinja
Member
No, it doesn't.Infamous Second Son. Sequel that plays like the past entries in the series.
Not really true. Just for the New Super Mario Bros. franchise you can see 5 games in only 7 years and 2 on the very latest console (Wii U).
http://www.giantbomb.com/new-super-mario-bros/3025-1546/
I really like Nintendo games but they very rarely introduce new IP for their games.
By your logic, I guess there have already been two GTAIV sequels since even before GTAV came out.
I mean really? Are you seriously considering DLC to mainline titles in a series?
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
I thought I would share some thoughts from Satoru Iwata - CEO of Nintendo, about the state of the video games industry. I thought it what he has to say is very interesting in the current context, with the Wii U in the precarious position it is in, and the PS4 and XB1 fighting for the same real estate. Bear in mind this isn't extremely recent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWSmFjOgyG4#t=520 E3 2001
If this was written today, firstly it would make just as much sense, and secondly would be considered a very bold statement to make and would spark a million "shotz fired!!!" threads.
What are your thoughts?
Wrong thread
What about WiiSports and WiiFit?
Yeah, I guess Wii Sports probably goes on the list. Something like (no particular order):
Wii Sports
Grand Theft Auto 3
World of Warcraft
Halo
Elder Scrolls III
DOTA
Guitar Hero
FarmVille
Demon's Souls
CoD 4
Notice this list doesn't include Minecraft. That's because I don't think it's actually changed gaming, really. It's like a thing in and of itself.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Yeah, had no clue this was an old thing from him until the spoiler. Hell, I presumed modern day.
Dat Nintendo arrogance. Still going strong in spite of fast-dwindling relevance.
How did you arrive at this?
I guess "rejecting" is too strong a word. He plainly states that his focus is not primarily on technology. As a console hardware maker that's shooting yourself in the foot an expecting you to keep pace with the competition.
And finally, it may not really matter which machine you choose, they all play the same games. And if that happens, console makers find themselves being in a commodity business, like TVs or media players...there's no reason for console players to choose one over the other, except for price. With all of this, it's little wonder why players can become frustrated, and this is dangerous to our industry
This is so true. Even down to the hardware this gen. The console designs are similar too which is pretty crazy. This is refreshing hearing this from him cause it's exactly how i feel.
Everything being the same is no fun. It's good when each console has their own library of exclusive games, unique design, and chipset. Variety is the best. Look at past generations.
Man, get a cup of coffee please.
This video was released in 2001, of course there were some changes since then but most of his statement is valid for today.
- Too much focus on graphics over real entertainment.
- And almost every hit game playing on every console
But I guess you've nothing to complain about beside sequels ?
Like not, it's not true Sony say this good thing or Microsoft too ?
From the gamer's/consumer's standpoint, there's nothing wrong with this. Homogenized consoles drives down the price. It's just the businesses that suffer, that was Iwata's point -- they can't charge a premium.
Poimandres
Member
Yep you can technically describe them as different, give them labels, one is an open world, one takes place on linear race tracks, they all have nuance in how the handling feels; but in the end it's variations of something I dislike and it feels like they're all evolving towards the same point. Go back in time and the difference between the franchises is larger.
Practically every game made by western AAA publishers, and now westernized Japanese AAA output, is converging to the same spot.
Much like how Nintendo games are mechanically different, but you still see comments like "lol Splatoon, Nintendo doesn't get it, this won't attract the CoD, Halo, BF, Gears audience. This only appeals to the Nintendo fanbase." Even though this is a completely new IP, and it's a TPS made internally by Nintendo. I totally understand the sentiment because the game appeals to me alot and I'm not a big fan of online shooters. It captures the essence I like about other Nintendo franchises. In much that same way, all western centric games are identical to me.
Wow, this is such a reductionist view. If anything those racing games are moving further away from each other. The introduction of open worlds in some racing games arguably creates a bigger difference than the introduction of weapons in kart racers. After all, that's basically all that seperates Mario Kart from a "typical" racer... the addition of weapons, and the presentation. Open world racing games require a vastly different approach than closed circuit racers. If anything, the two types of racers are getting more divergent with developers expanding the open world format while others double down on closed track design.
You say thsoe racing games are "variations of something you dislike". Well what exactly is it that you dislike about these very different games? Racing? Then what exactly does Mario Kart provide that that makes you like it?
I just don't see how you can say that practically every game made by AAA publishers is converging on the same spot. If you are talking purely about presentation I can see where you are coming from, but games are catagorized into different genres for a reason. Because they DON'T provide the same experience. That's not likely to change.
I don't even see Splatoon the same way as you. It looks very Nintendo, but my enjoyment of other Nintendo franchises is going to have no bearing on whether Splatoon is a good game or not. I might find its look off-putting and think it plays like a dream, or the other way around.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Nintendo has always had that "We know best!" mindset with both customers and developers, so nothing he said strikes me as out of the ordinary. The next guy, if there ever is one, will likely say the same things despite whatever state the company is in.
I like Iwata because he is a designer.
He looks at things, tries to assess where things might be going wrong, and attempts to come up with a solution. If the solution doesn't work, or things change, he looks at things again and tries to examine why they didn't work, or what was wrong with his initial assessment.
He's obviously thoughtful and intelligent, and just as obviously cares about gaming as a medium, not just as a paycheck. There are numerous "Ask Iwatas" that show both just how insightful he can be, and how much he cares about gaming in general, not just as a product but as a medium.
The thing is... I can't imagine the CEO of EA, or Activision, or Ubisoft, or Sony, or MS ever sitting down and thinking more about gaming than what sort of profit margins they're looking at and whats hot right now.
Piston Hyundai
Member
I mean really? Are you seriously considering DLC to mainline titles in a series?
It could go both ways. It has a comparable amount of content as well as a standalone retail release.
The post I responded to said that those games did not use those features so I listed how they did.Are you aware that the stuff you mentioned could be mapped to a button or have equivalent (and for most of the people way greater) benefits by being totally conventional in the hardware choices?
Imagine you are in 2007 and you are about to play Mario Galaxy for the first time, would you prefer playing the way we all know or with a PS3/360 level of graphics( like for example Sonic Generations) and with the spin mapped to a button instead of the wiggle of the wiimote?
Also, the argument has nothing to do with Nintendo's decision to focus on lower-powered hardware. Each one of the NSMB games came out on hardware with vastly different power levels and architectures which lead to different games beyond the surface level that people focus on. If you watch a video of NSMBWii and a video of NSMBU the differences in the density of content is very apparent.
I wonder what his thoughts are today. I remember Nintendo being so adamant about offering games to everyone, and now its like "FUCK CASUALS".
There was a recent interview... I don't remember if it was Iwata or Miyamoto... but they basically said that pursuing the kind of casuals that are into mobile phones is fruitless. Seemed kind of upset that the millions that bought Wii didn't have brand loyalty and/or that the attempt to graduate them from Wii Sports to core franchises failed. And then there are people that want Nintendo games but won't support Nintendo.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
It reeks of both hubris and desperation
A winning combination!
Well, except for the Wii U.
Wrong thread
It's amazing how someone quotes the OP but never bothered to read it.
Piston Hyundai
Member
A winning combination!
Well, except for the Wii U.
laying it on a little thick there, buddy
Thankfully due to ease of access from mobile/PC-Steam-GOG/tablet and tools such as Unity there has been an increase in the number of independent developers and this has given rise to some genuinely great and popular games such as Minecraft, Angry Birds, those F2P MMORPGs that I don't know the names of, and these are the games that are going to underpin the next 20 years of the industry as the old AAA tier becomes unsustainable and creatively bankrupt.
Mobile devs despite have some crazy booms tend to fizzle out quickly without being able to provide follow-ups. The market culture is crazy and certainly not dev-focused. This lack of sustainability is kinda what Iwata talks about. These games aren't sustainable, it's either a boom or a bust and booms rarely create enough deep relationships to have studios continue after the initial gravy train. Japan is having slightly better luck on this front but it's still a problem.
soulassssns
Banned
He's mostly full of shit but he's awesome.
Am I really seeing a first post failure?
Extra Sauce
Member
Sequels are inherently suited to videogames.
Im sorry but this is BS. Sony do make new IP and some of them are unique gameplay ideas but if you look at the point Iwata makes a lot of them are copying the gameplay concepts of another franchise. The IP maybe unique but the game is not.It's the comparison. Quality can of course be debatable, but quantity and commitment to new IP cannot be disputed between the two. Sony is simply more committed to first party new IP development than Nintendo.
Nintendo make games that the gameplay and concepts are unique but because they dont design a new main protagonist around it they get criticised for not creating new IP.
Myomoto dislike mobile phone gamers he said because they will never make the effort to try games out of their confort zone and try to understand a game. Like Wonderfull 101 was missed by the mass for example.There was a recent interview... I don't remember if it was Iwata or Miyamoto... but they basically said that pursuing the kind of casuals that are into mobile phones is fruitless. Seemed kind of upset that the millions that bought Wii didn't have brand loyalty and/or that the attempt to graduate them from Wii Sports to core franchises failed. And then there are people that want Nintendo games but won't support Nintendo.
evilromero
Member
It reeks of both hubris and desperation
Except that this is even before the Wii and DS, which would sky rocket off the back of software. So it's well-founded and supported.
GuessMyUserName
Member
It could go both ways. It has a comparable amount of content as well as a standalone retail release.
NSLU was 20 bucks, built off of the base game.