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Jaffe's "Heartland" a response to President Bush
- Thread starter Wario64
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LegendofJoe
Member
This is most definitely an interesting avenue for games to follow. I hope you haven't completely given up on it Jaffe. There are a lot of different directions you can take an idea like that.
Here's one I just thought up off the top of my head : a hypothetical future where the world's oil supply is drying up and the major powers are fighting over what's left. Where global warming has severly depleted the world's fresh water supplies and the impovershed people of the world as a result are in uprising.
The game would revolve around you as leader of one of these impovershed nations struggling to help his people and maintain order. The basic game mechanics would be similar to Civilization only much more surreal and realistic. Based on your performance your people would either be peaceful or in a state of uprising. The ultimate goal would be to outlast the tide of destruction and suffering and develop a society capable of pushing human civilization further.
I hope you continue to think out of the box jaffe, please don't let Sony stick you with GoW-keep coming up with new ideas.
Here's one I just thought up off the top of my head : a hypothetical future where the world's oil supply is drying up and the major powers are fighting over what's left. Where global warming has severly depleted the world's fresh water supplies and the impovershed people of the world as a result are in uprising.
The game would revolve around you as leader of one of these impovershed nations struggling to help his people and maintain order. The basic game mechanics would be similar to Civilization only much more surreal and realistic. Based on your performance your people would either be peaceful or in a state of uprising. The ultimate goal would be to outlast the tide of destruction and suffering and develop a society capable of pushing human civilization further.
I hope you continue to think out of the box jaffe, please don't let Sony stick you with GoW-keep coming up with new ideas.
Doom_Bringer
Banned
Jaffe! I like this idea of being Chinese and killing Americans. Plz make this game for PS3!
kthxbye
kthxbye
Grecco said:
Yeah, I'm not so sure about what Jaffe said either. It doesn't jive with everything I've read and learned in school. I don't think France has the lock on inventing democracy.
The wiki on it certainly doesn't appear to jive with that statement.
LegendofJoe
Member
Dr_Cogent said:
But they did invent french fries, so they'll always have a fond place in my heart :lol
LegendofJoe said:
:lol
French fries are good. I don't hate the French people, but their government hasn't exactly been our ally since we bailed them out the last two times.
Blim Blim I believe is a French citizen. He's cool. Can't stereotype the people, but the government body can be for the most part.
Communism also is lame as well. Drawing similarities between the US and China is offensive. We don't treat our people over here like the Chinese government does. They still deny the events at Tienanmen Square.
RUSH is my favorite band ever. If they started injecting their politics, it could very well turn me off. Thankfully, they are quite personal and keep their private thoughts and opinions to themselves. Doing so is also smart, you are less likely to piss someone off and lose a customer.
CrapSandwich
former Navy SEAL
A broader issue here is integrity, and any time a creative person begins injecting their own politics and philosophies and ethics into a creative work, they're doing it to the detriment of whatever they're making. It makes their stuff preachy and uninteresting. Stuff like Ayn Rand's novels, or Nietzsche's Zarathustra, or virtually any political cartoon all work well as philosophy or speech, but are garbage when looked at as art.
It drives me nuts, and this is a large issue today. But entertainment shouldn't be thought of as education. If people want to learn, creative works aren't the place to look because there's nothing inherit in being an artist that qualifies people to teach. However, today we are in the media age and everybody wants their point of view out there. If you're making entertainment products, you need to learn to turn your ego off and focus on doing something that people are going to enjoy. I'm sure some of you younger, college age people are still suffering from delusions that there is profound meaning in art. I understand that because I used to think the same thing. As you get older, you'll gain an appreciation for the simplicity of entertainment once you recognize it for what it is and stop confusing it with real learning.
It drives me nuts, and this is a large issue today. But entertainment shouldn't be thought of as education. If people want to learn, creative works aren't the place to look because there's nothing inherit in being an artist that qualifies people to teach. However, today we are in the media age and everybody wants their point of view out there. If you're making entertainment products, you need to learn to turn your ego off and focus on doing something that people are going to enjoy. I'm sure some of you younger, college age people are still suffering from delusions that there is profound meaning in art. I understand that because I used to think the same thing. As you get older, you'll gain an appreciation for the simplicity of entertainment once you recognize it for what it is and stop confusing it with real learning.
Wow, color me pleasantly surprised - a semi-real political discussion on GAF! Starring Jaffe, no less - that's some good shit.
It's probably already been mentioned, but lots of developers have and always been interested in this kind of stuff in their games. The problem is that very few developers have Jaffe's sway, and most publishers are worried about controversy in any form.
I'll give an example. A WW2-era game I wrote dialog for came out recently, and had some very mild, racial remarks in it. They were all said by actual Nazis and all historically accurate, so it was abundantly clear that this sort of thing was bad. But the testers and publisher were worried about any kind of controversial material getting into the game and blocking approval, no matter how historically justified it was and how obviously those statements were characterized. I tried to fight it, but no one was willing to risk the tiniest chance that we'd fail submission because of it, so they were removed. Of course it didn't ruin the game, but I do feel it took a tiny bit of depth away from the characters and story as a whole. If they thought three tiny words were risky, think what they'd think about an entire game.
Games aren't yet given the artistic leeway movies are. Right now that's probably a good thing, since the medium is still trying to gain mass acceptance, but to developers it can feel awfully limiting at times. On one hand it sucks to feel like you have to only make things for the lowest common denominator when you think you have more interesting ideas, and on the other it probably sucks more if your game doesn't sell and your company goes out of business. That's why most people don't take chances and try to do more with game content, and ultimately I feel it will constrain innovation, but we'll have to deal with that then.
It's probably already been mentioned, but lots of developers have and always been interested in this kind of stuff in their games. The problem is that very few developers have Jaffe's sway, and most publishers are worried about controversy in any form.
I'll give an example. A WW2-era game I wrote dialog for came out recently, and had some very mild, racial remarks in it. They were all said by actual Nazis and all historically accurate, so it was abundantly clear that this sort of thing was bad. But the testers and publisher were worried about any kind of controversial material getting into the game and blocking approval, no matter how historically justified it was and how obviously those statements were characterized. I tried to fight it, but no one was willing to risk the tiniest chance that we'd fail submission because of it, so they were removed. Of course it didn't ruin the game, but I do feel it took a tiny bit of depth away from the characters and story as a whole. If they thought three tiny words were risky, think what they'd think about an entire game.
Games aren't yet given the artistic leeway movies are. Right now that's probably a good thing, since the medium is still trying to gain mass acceptance, but to developers it can feel awfully limiting at times. On one hand it sucks to feel like you have to only make things for the lowest common denominator when you think you have more interesting ideas, and on the other it probably sucks more if your game doesn't sell and your company goes out of business. That's why most people don't take chances and try to do more with game content, and ultimately I feel it will constrain innovation, but we'll have to deal with that then.
Grecco said:
Funny thing is though, they didn't bother trying this theory on a nation like Palestine. Iraq wasn't dealing with terrorism issues. Saddam kept them under control. A country like Palestine is extremely impoverished...it could have used some nation building.
But then again, there's not much to invest into, in Palestine. In Iraq...there is plenty to invest into.
Dr_Cogent said:
They were willing to kill women and children beforehand, that's why Saddam wiped them out in the first place!
You are trying to blame everyone else, when it was YOUR PARTY'S leader who turned Iraq into a shitstorm.
Do you know anything about what's going on in Iraq? I'm not insulting you, just asking you a question. There are two sides divided by religion, but it has less with religious nutcases and more of getting revenge because someone killed your brother. The violence there is a cycle of revenge killings, as there is no security and no justice. At least when Saddam was in power, if someone murdered another person, they would be accountable for it. Nowadays in Iraq, anyone can kill anyone and get away with it...
...all because of Bush's brilliant plan to introduce democracy into Iraq by wiping out their army, destroying the country's many infrastructures, and wiping out all forms of government, introducing chaos.
Dr_Cogent said:
Iran is a country predominantly Shi'ite, they LIKE the fact that the Iraqi government is governed by Shi'ites who will be friendly towards Iran.
You probably don't even know the difference between a Sunni and Shi'ite.
The Kurds are a minority, and they know just as much as anyone else the US involvement with Iraq in dealing with the Kurds. In fact, Turkey was congratulated by the US when they wiped out Kurds threatening them. It's all under the banner of fighting against terrorism. And guess what, it wasn't a Democrat Administration that gave them the thumbs up.
"We" as in Bush. "Evil" as in mislead, ignorant, and capable of making stupid decisions? I would agree in that case.
Again, a game would be great to illustrate and to educate.
To think that the Invasion of Iraq was a good thing, is absolutely illogical. I still can't believe people are defending it to this day. Again, these people probably don't know much about the history of the country, about the divisions that existed for years, they are just following their leader like sheep, while not realizing that their leader is blind to begin with.
I think Jaffe is more right than people are giving him credit for. Modern democracy in America isn't really anything like Greek democracy. We drew so much from the French Revolution and the philosophes in constructing the Constitution...hell, we even use their terminology of "right" and "left" in describing our political system. The definitions of classical liberalism and such are heavily influenced by the French.
Jaffe+++
Jaffe+++
I doubt the World would have reacted positively to the idea of United States and Israel taking over Palestinian Territories. Just not a realistic scenario in any sence of the word
Iraq already had weapon inspectors there so there was doubt over the weapons (Even though it was obviously not legitimate)
Btw. the whole "oil thing" I dont thing is any more legitimate than the WMD thing.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
The real difference between the two "invasions" is not as important as the perceived difference from the views of certain people in Iraq. I believe that's exactly the point. Whether or not they're ignorant and unaware of America's intent or justification, there's still that belief among some in Iraq or the Middle-east in general that the 2 "invasions" would not be so different. So in that sense and from those points of view, the perceived similarities are all that matter.---- said:
It's where the key point lays. Not that it's meant to compare the 2 invasions, simple put. But rather that it's supposed to make you feel like Iraqis who do feel like they've been invaded. Even if it uses an illusion game mechanic to establish that sense.
To illustrate further, I recall a small game design document from not too long ago (it's not being developed into a game, so fear not of spoilers). It was about a game where you were part of a nation that believes its race was wholly and morally superior to all, yet imminently threatened by other races of monsters. So out of a sense of defense, your nation not only pushed genocide on millions of 1 monster race, but waged war on all other monster races. Then, at the end, you some how become enlighted and you're shocked to see all the dead morph from monsters into humans. They were humans all along.
Obviously based completely off World War II, the point was to illustrate perceived reality versus actual reality. Jaffe's concept sounds similar (though with much less reliance on an illusion). It's not about the actual reality of the US liberation and occupation, but rather the perceived reality of invasion that some Iraqis feel. Similar to the cited design concept, it's not about the genocide of humans, but the genocide of what you feels is a monsterous threat to your race.
In fact, since we inheritently cannot relate because of our own morales or knowledge of actual reality, such illusions are likely even absolutely required in order to achieve real relation and immersion into their contrasting perceived reality.
speculawyer
Member
You can't really do political commentary with the videogame . . . it is too slow of a medium. By the time a development cycle completes the issue is gone or has changed significantly.
One can do broad-strokes like R* does in the GTA series. Generic corrupt politicians, lecherous politicians, Televangelists, etc. I guess Jaffe could point out common issues in war.
One can do broad-strokes like R* does in the GTA series. Generic corrupt politicians, lecherous politicians, Televangelists, etc. I guess Jaffe could point out common issues in war.
StingerNLG said:
I think David should be glad that uneducated and ignorant people like yourself are steering away from his games. Do you think those labels are too harsh? I don't think so. If you think that what is happening down there is a good idea, good for the Iraqi people, better for them than rule under Saddam, it all points to ignorance. It all points to a lack of education on the topic. You can change that...you can educate yourself on the issue!
You find it "vulgar" that celebrities have an opinion and are voicing it. What does that tell me about yourself? Secondly, you don't consider that these people are so passionate that they take the time to educate themselves about the issue.
You find it "vulgar" that they are telling you facts, that they are trying to open your eyes to reality...again, what does that tell me about yourself?
I make music, I sure hell wouldn't want skinheads, or Neo Nazis enjoying my stuff. Maybe, that's just me.
The Iraqi government has told the US to stay to clean up it's ****ing mess. They came in without a plan, without a valid reason, and as a result overstepped their boundaries and have killed many innocent people. They could not adapt to the guerrilla warfare tactics of those fighting them, and have chosen to only protect small key areas near oil rigs, refineries, and certain governmental areas. The Iraqi government will never allow the American troops to leave because they introduced a civil war, and the only time the Americans can leave is when there is no war.
I'll tell you what the Iraqis are feeling. They are cursing the US every day. They wish ill on American soldiers. Many go as far to say that they wish they were under Saddam. Things would have to get pretty bad for the Shi'ites to say that...and yet, they are.
All thanks to George W. Bush, and his supporters.
Secondly, isn't it hypocritical for you to not buy those games? Those games aren't preaching to you at all. They are great games. Don't you buy games to enjoy yourself? I would understand not buying a game with a political message (I wonder, did you buy Metal Gear Solid 2?)...but this...smacks of brainless partisanship.
If mods feel my language is too strong, I will edit. If they feel my accusations are out of line, I will edit. I feel that it can be proven, and it's not a baseless accusation.
KyanMehwulfe said:
thank you, I was gonna post something like this but I didn't feel like writing it out. The guy seems to not realize the idea is to create the "feel" most Iraqis have of us right now - the way we view China bringing communism to us is much like how they feel about us now.
speculawyer
Member
Jonm1010 said:
The theory behind how to defeat terrorism is that its caused by the conflict between democratic goverments and religious goverments.
United States wants to force Midle Eastern nations to change from religious goverments where the Koran is the Law to democratic goverments where religion and goverment are trully seperate. You do this by invading a nation forcing it to become a democracy and when its a stable democracy you hope other nations will want to change as well, or you invade those as well.
Its kind of hard to invade palestinian territories to force them into a democratic nation, but Iraq had a guy nobody liked (Saddam) and rumors of WMD (They were unfounded). Invading Iraq made sense, and was a pretty obvious thing before it even happened.
speculawyer
Member
Y2Kevbug11 said:
You know, I wanna laugh at that. But I can't. It just hurts. :-/
Grecco said:
First off, why does introducing democracy have to mean invading a country? That's not what I meant at all. They could have assisted Palestine. Helped develop it, help support a democracy.
Secondly, it was clear that Iraq had no weapons breaking any UN restrictions. There was no doubt, at all.
I don't mean to focus on natural resources. It has a lot more to do with making money. How much has the war cost? Where does that money go? It just doesn't get burned up in a fire, it goes to someone's pockets.
That's besides the point though, the real reason why NeoCons went into Iraq have more to do with a crazy ideology that they can, through wars, make other nations "friendly" to the US. I'm more concerned about the idea that "War is Peace", than someone making money.
Kinda off-topic, but feels on after reading some of these posts...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/business/media/16pew.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Summary - Pew Research shows the Daily Show/Colbert Report viewers are the most knowledgeable about current events, Fox News viewers among the least.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/16/business/media/16pew.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Summary - Pew Research shows the Daily Show/Colbert Report viewers are the most knowledgeable about current events, Fox News viewers among the least.
StingerNLG
Member
Fight for Freeform said:
I wonder if a gool old fashioned **** you is too strong a response. I don't think so. You can keep that liberal bullshit to yourself. In fact, I wasn't even talking to you. I was addressing the fact that politics don't belong in video games, and it's for this very reason.
And anyone who thinks rule under Saddam was actually better than it is today has no business calling ANYONE else ignorant and uneducated. Because you definately don't have any education on this topic either.
And you have NO IDEA what Iraqi's are feeling. And the fact you think you do shows me you're like every other bleeding heart that loves to run his mouth from all the way across the ocean. And making ignorant comments like "Many go as far to say that they wish they were under Saddam" shows you know absolutely nothing about what you speak.
Then again, all these celebrities you seem to think are speaking "fact" also shoot their mouth off from thousands of miles away, so that tells me all I need to know.
I'm not responding to the rest of your post because honestly, this isn't about you. And I really could give a rats ass what you think on the subject.
In fact I am, to take a liberal term, pulling out, of this thread before I do say something that will get me perma-banned. Especially on a subject that shouldn't even be here.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
davidjaffe said:
I love this guy. He is the ****ing man.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
davidjaffe said:
Man **** that Jaffe you need to make this game on the PS3. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!
speculawyer
Member
Grecco said:
:lol :lol Yeah, it has really worked out great . . . such a good idea to do it with such a big country. We could have started out in a tiny place and see if it worked out well & learn how to do it. Well . . . wait . . we did try to do it in a much smaller country . . . but we cut & ran before seeing it through.
Maybe I can laugh at it.
Laughing is much better than the alternative. 
Grecco said:
I'm going to dispute what you said, but I'm not arguing with you because you could be posting this to reflect what NeoCons think, and not what you think. I'm just posting this to show how ridiculous this ideology is.
First off, there is no nation in the Middle East where the "Quran is law". Secondly, Iraq was a country where religion and government were already seperate. The Baathist party in Iraq and Syria are SECULAR parties.
This twisted view of the World, is no different that Al Qaeda's twisted view of the World.
Yet...these two sides have trapped the moderate and peace loving people of the World. As they play their game, it is turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy. NeoCons would claim that there is some sort of "Muslim facism" going on, whereas Al Qaeda will claim that Americans are imperialistic and bring bloodshed to the Muslim World. Prior to 9/11, it was clear that neither of these accusations were true. But as these two sides squared off, these accusations are becoming more and more of a "reality".
speculawyer
Member
mckmas8808 said:
I'll buy another PS3 and 2 copies if he makes it.
Ain't gonna happen though.
fortified_concept
Banned
Grecco said:
The french re-invented democracy so although not completely accurate, Jaffe's right. Yes democracy was a Greek invention but the foundations for the modern democracy were built by the french.
And btw this post needs to be quoted again because a)it's first class ownage to ---- and every republican who's babbling about liberation of Iraq (or other bullshit catchphrases) when US occupation only brought to Iraq suffering and b) sums up completely my feelings about the ridiculous excuses republicans have used the past few years for the war.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
---- said:
SatelliteOfLove
Member
The problem I have with the idea of it isn't the idea of it (which sounds sounds pretty damn cool, deep, and the *real* mature), but with the allegory. The Chinese invading's the old Red Scare against another superpower, whereas the toppling of Saddam and the subsequent Rut-Roh-Fest was done ostensiably "for" Iraq, not to conquer it. It's not the same, and it's bad rhetoric.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
SatelliteOfLove said:
What makes you think they wouldn't invade for other reasons?
StingerNLG said:
Obviously this is something you feel strongly about, but, uh... you don't have to look too hard to find interviews with everyday Iraqis stating that things were better under Saddam. If things were better now, two million Iraqis probably wouldn't have fled into neighboring countries, either.
The Iraq War is like the PS3 - it's being fought for potential, but right now it leaves a lot to be desired. There, back on topic!
speculawyer
Member
Yeah, there is now an unspoken 'war on islam' reason for the Iraq war. Some people will admit to supporting the war for that reason . . . many feel that way and you can hear it in what they say, but they won't admit to outright.Fight for Freeform said:
That is such a sad and pathetic reason in so many ways. Jeez . . . it just astounds me that we are in the 21st Century and we are STILL having wars over who's God is better. But beyond that, it is a totally stupid war even if you actually think a war on Islam is a good idea. Saddam was indeed a secular dictator. Not only was he not an Islamist, he HATED the Islamists and had many of them killed. We just took out a secular dictator and now the country is being run by Islamists. Their political opposition are other Islamists of a different flavor. Yes, there is a tiny secular segment, but they have so little power/votes that they are politically insignificant. We turned a secular state into an Islamist state . . . woo-hoo! What a win in that war on Islam.
Damn . . . the political commentary on a videogame site blows away most political sites.
And you think us videogamers are knuckleheads Jack Thompson?
**** you.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Grecco said:
K let me give you a L, an O, and another L.
Read on Iraq's pre-invasion social politics. Women and men had to go to school together, no head-scarf allowed for women, religious zealots were kept in check (in non-acceptable ways in our countries, but look what happens when you let them loose over there).
Just goes to show how little people know.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Ark-AMN said:Color me shocked at this revelation!!!
Just like with most movie directors, I like their work, not their politics.
Why aren't you surprised?
Fight for Freeform said:
The Fact that Iraq was a place where religion and goverment were already seperate, is one of the reasons why pre invasion it was a more ideal target than an Iran for example. Never in their wildest dreams did the "neocons" expect this type of scenario to unfold.
And seccond i dont think its a ridiculous ideology, in a sense they are trying to fight terrorism, its obviously not working and who knows if its ever gonna work. I just think conservatives trully want to fight terrorism, just maybe in a foolish way.
And no its not my personal thinking, though i understand it, (and i genuinely enjoy discussing politics, Political Science Major in Colledge
) But admitedly i dont think i have a personal ideology. Living in a territory occupied already by the United States, where we have no real political rights, no right to vote, and yet can be drafted/sent to war, are taxed ect kinda does that.oh and i fully support political discussion in video games. Whether you agree with it or not, i just dont see it as being economically viable.
Fight for Freeform said:
To continue your point, heres another kicker to Greco they didnt have intertwined church and state before our invasion, but guess what? they do now!! and constitutionally set to!! how nice.
Greco:
tell me do you still think democracy at gunpoint is smart? War of attrition, uncounted debt, huge loss of life, regional disdain for us(the very thing we didnt want). Hows that Neo-Con philosophy working out for ya'll.
frAntic_Frog
Member
wow who cares about "woulda coulda shoulda" now that Jaffe has abandoned HL and went on to make a 4-level kiddy cop game thats in a state of perpetual delay........
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Grecco said:The Fact that Iraq was a place where religion and goverment were already seperate, is one of the reasons why pre invasion it was a more ideal target than an Iran for example. Never in their wildest dreams did the "neocons" expect this type of scenario to unfold.
And seccond i dont think its a ridiculous ideology, in a sense they are trying to fight terrorism, its obviously not working and who knows if its ever gonna work. I just think conservatives trully want to fight terrorism, just maybe in a foolish way.
And no its not my personal thinking, though i understand it, (and i genuinely enjoy discussing politics, Political Science Major in Colledge
oh and i fully support political discussion in video games. Whether you agree with it or not, i just dont see it as being economically viable.
What country do you live in?
frAntic_Frog said:
Calling All cars is probably more economically viable than a game with a deeper theme.
Puerto Rico, been an american territory since 1898 still cant vote for the US presidency. Both the democrats and republicans actually come here for fund raising though. :lol
Grecco said:The Fact that Iraq was a place where religion and goverment were already seperate, is one of the reasons why pre invasion it was a more ideal target than an Iran for example. Never in their wildest dreams did the "neocons" expect this type of scenario to unfold.
And seccond i dont think its a ridiculous ideology, in a sense they are trying to fight terrorism, its obviously not working and who knows if its ever gonna work. I just think conservatives trully want to fight terrorism, just maybe in a foolish way.
And no its not my personal thinking, though i understand it, (and i genuinely enjoy discussing politics, Political Science Major in Colledge
oh and i fully support political discussion in video games. Whether you agree with it or not, i just dont see it as being economically viable.
which attests to there ignorance, since Bush's own Father used the very reason that we have playing out in reality today as to why he wouldnt overthrow saddam the first time. He said that over 10 years ago
cheekymunky
Banned
Jaffe = The Dixie Chicks of videogames.
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