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Jaffe's "Heartland" a response to President Bush

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huacst21 said:
I'm not arguing against anyone bringing us home. I just feel like most are using this war to bash Bush to no end and giving us servicemen a back seat or using our situation to win votes in 2008.

Although I feel that bashing Bush is just fun criticism of someone worth criticizing, I feel that those trying to get the soldiers home are NOT doing just to bash Bush. People want to bring soldiers home to reduce deaths & stop wasting huge piles of cash.

If they really wanted to bash Bush, they wouldn't try to stop the war. The war is a huge albatross around Bush's neck that will pretty much never let his approval rise out of the 30% to 40% range. They would be much better off just saying "Look this war is wrong . . . but we'll let you keeping doing it because it will always be a neon sign of how wrong you were." The efforts to try to stop the war are risky political moves . . . it opens them up to the endless attacks such as "You don't support the troops." and "You are rooting for America to fail" from the jingoist masses. No need to suffer such insults if they just wanted to politically attack Bush. The Iraq war bashes Bush better than liberal commentator ever could.
 
Fight for Freeform said:
So you are telling me that, I, a Muslim writer on Middle Eastern affairs, don't have any education on this topic, and have "no idea what Iraqis are feeling", all because...

gavatar.gif


A muslim GTA fan . . . we need more muslims like you and far less like Osama. :)
 
soul creator said:
^^^this sounds like Homer Simpson: "If at first you don't succeed, give up." :lol

Well, I was agreeing with Draft that you should start smaller. If you can barely crawl, maybe entering Boston marathon is not the best idea just yet.

Do you honestly believe that in the next 10 year there will be a video game produced about something like Iraq about which you can actually say to your non-gaming friends: "you know, if you really want to understand this war go and play game X?"

Right now, there is no ****ing way I'd recommend to anybody who is into Tom Clancy books a game as a superior story experience. Isn't is a little ridiculous to try to pontificate on war and peace if Tom Clancy beats all kind of crap out you in story department?
 
speculawyer said:
Although I feel that bashing Bush is just fun criticism of someone worth criticizing, I feel that those trying to get the soldiers home are NOT doing just to bash Bush. People want to bring soldiers home to reduce deaths & stop wasting huge piles of cash.

If they really wanted to bash Bush, they wouldn't try to stop the war. The war is a huge albatross around Bush's neck that will pretty much never let his approval rise out of the 30% to 40% range. They would be much better off just saying "Look this war is wrong . . . but we'll let you keeping doing it because it will always be a neon sign of how wrong you were." The efforts to try to stop the war are risky political moves . . . it opens them up to the endless attacks such as "You don't support the troops." and "You are rooting for America to fail" from the jingoist masses. No need to suffer such insults if they just wanted to politically attack Bush. The Iraq war bashes Bush better than liberal commentator ever could.

I don't disagree that Bush is worth criticizing, but I think people who do so generally don't seriously consider the consequences of giving up on Iraq (i.e., another Taliban-style Islamic state where al-Qaida is free to recruit and train). Don't kid yourself; we're not there to prevent civil war. And don't kid yourself; al-Qaida will come after us as long as Israel exists, regardless of what countries we, NATO, or the UN happen to be occupying/"peacekeeping".

As far as what the Iraqis think, I couldn't care less if you are Muslim or you've read up on the Middle East. There are blogs written by Iraqis living in Iraq. I think I'll take their word about how they feel over yours.

Darfur gets suprisingly little attention in the news. Far more civilian casualties there than in Iraq. The US has been pushing for action for a long time, but the UN sits on its hands. Oh well, as long as Americans aren't in harm's way and we aren't spending lots of money, I can just pretend that it isn't happening and have a free conscience.

On the subject of politics in games: seems like everyone thinks their political views are right and wants to push them on other people (just like their tastes in games, music, etc.). I don't play games to be indoctrinated or preached at. Propaganda is distasteful to me, and bringing it to mainstream video games would be a new low, like in-game ads but worse. America's Army for liberals? I'll pass, thanks.
 
Well, I think Jaffe should take an each-way bet and do it both on the PSP and PS3: The big-budget version on the PS3, and the PSP one having like a substory. Similar to what they're doing with GoW and whatnot... Phil's right this kind of title would get a bigger impact on the PS3 as an exclusive title (especially with 1080p... and if Jaffe decides to take the gore up to another level).

As for the 'response' stuff, well make it PS3 then! Give the gore and the war areas the high-resolution love and care they need, heck if you do it right, David, Fox News will pick up a clip and claim the footage is real.
 
Wiitard said:
Well, I was agreeing with Draft that you should start smaller. If you can barely crawl, maybe entering Boston marathon is not the best idea just yet.

Do you honestly believe that in the next 10 year there will be a video game produced about something like Iraq about which you can actually say to your non-gaming friends: "you know, if you really want to understand this war go and play game X?"

I also wouldn't recommend a silent film to a blind person, but I'm a dick like that.

Right now, there is no ****ing way I'd recommend to anybody who is into Tom Clancy books a game as a superior story experience. Isn't is a little ridiculous to try to pontificate on war and peace if Tom Clancy beats all kind of crap out you in story department?

That's a defeatist attitude that producers can't afford conceding to, not to mention entirely anti-competitive.
 
I hate to say it, but every time I play GoW now, I think of Jaffe, and that makes me not want to play the game. :\

Sorta like Metal Gear and Kojima, actually.
 
antispin said:
There really are far less muslims like Osama. Doesn't make them GTA fans though :)

No, only a very small fraction of Osama-types. The sad thing is that our policies don't drive a wedge between those Osama-type ones and the rest. That should have been the overall guiding policy of our policies. A meta-policy.
 
JB1981 said:
Except Bioshock looks like a horror-themed riff on Rand's Galt's Gulch from Atlas Shrugged. The devs behind the game certainly have an interest in Rand's work, though.
http://objectivistcenter.org/cs/forums/288/ShowPost.aspx

Reading their exchange, its funny how mixed up philosophies have been mixed and confused over the years.

For instance, Ayn Rand's Objectivist philosophy has been a very important foundation for modern conservatism in the US. The same conservatism that has been fused completely with the Christian right. But the philosophy of Christ is pretty damn close to communism. Christ challenges religious/political authority throughout the gospels, and encourages people to love eachother, and more than that love their enemies. This notion is absolutely contrary to Objectivism.

Oddly enough, LaVeyan Satanism borrows heavily from Objectivism. I've even read that Anton LaVey plagiarized Rand's work.

So at least in the US, you have millions of Christians supposedly believing in a socialist worldview, but allying themselves politically with Conservatives who base a their beliefs on a philosophy that also inspired "enlightened" Satanism.

Is it just me, or is somebody getting duped here?
 
theBishop said:
Reading their exchange, its funny how mixed up philosophies have been mixed and confused over the years.

For instance, Ayn Rand's Objectivist philosophy has been a very important foundation for modern conservatism in the US. The same conservatism that has been fused completely with the Christian right. But the philosophy of Christ is pretty damn close to Marxism. Christ challenges religious/political authority throughout the gospels, and encourages people to love eachother, and more than that love their enemies. This notion is absolutely contrary to Objectivism.

Oddly enough, LaVeyan Satanism borrows heavily from Objectivism. I've even read that Anton LaVey plagiarized Rand's work.

So at least in the US, you have millions of Christians supposedly believing in a socialist worldview, but allying themselves politically with Conservatives who base a their beliefs on a philosophy that also inspired "enlightened" Satanism.

Is it just me, or is somebody getting duped here?
That sounded very pretty! Please say this at my wedding.

PS: Stop thinking.
 
Wiitard said:
What is that even supposed to mean?

Sorry, I tend to forget how much "anti-competitive" is associated with business practice. What I meant was "it discourages competing viewpoints and philosophies."
 
Open Source said:
I don't disagree that Bush is worth criticizing, but I think people who do so generally don't seriously consider the consequences of giving up on Iraq (i.e., another Taliban-style Islamic state where al-Qaida is free to recruit and train). Don't kid yourself; we're not there to prevent civil war. And don't kid yourself; al-Qaida will come after us as long as Israel exists, regardless of what countries we, NATO, or the UN happen to be occupying/"peacekeeping".

Maybe some of them don't seriously consider the consequences. I certainly do. First of all, it is not 'giving up' on Iraq. It is adopting a different strategy. Move forces back to Kuwait. Move forces up into the Kurd area where they pretty much love us. And let the rest of it figure things out.

They've got a fledgling democracy . . . let's see what they can do on their own. Maybe the restored dignity from throwing off an occupier will get them to work better with each other. Or maybe not . . . maybe they'll have to just kill each other for while. Well, if they do so (which is likely) at least they can't blame it on us. It is at least worth a try. What we are currently doing isn't going to do anything in less than 5 to 20 years. That is a lot of wasted money & blood . . . why not try to stem it . . . or least lower the deaths of our own troops and lower the deaths that can be blamed on our troops.

We'd still be there watching things from a safe distance. We'd still have an intelligence network in-country. And if anything even remotely close to "Taliban-style Islamic state where al-Qaida is free to recruit and train" started to form, we could bomb it. Or re-invake and 'take them out'. (We are very good at that . . . the best actually.) But this 'occupation' thing just blows. Who wants to stand around in a country filled with people that don't want you there and will often tell you so with an IED or sniper bullet?

Here is my grand compromise for Bush and Congress. Have congress fund the war for a few more months, but Iraq must hold a referendum to decide: "Do you want the multi-national force to remain in Iraq?" We would then do what they ask. The only logical & factually accurate rational for the war is "Free Iraqis from a dictator and give them Democracy" (And that is certainly a noble & just goal.) Well, the referendum would be democracy in action.
 
Attack You said:
Sorry, I tend to forget how much "anti-competitive" is associated with business practice. What I meant was "it discourages competing viewpoints and philosophies."

I have no problem discouraging competing viewpoints in art. Or at least being very unexcited about viewpoints and visions of people who has not come even close to being up to snuff in the storytelling department.

Not that I even care all that much. I wonder how many people who clamor day and night about stories in games actually read any kind of real literature.
 
speculawyer said:
Maybe some of them don't seriously consider the consequences. I certainly do. First of all, it is not 'giving up' on Iraq. It is adopting a different strategy. Move forces back to Kuwait. Move forces up into the Kurd area where they pretty much love us. And let the rest of it figure things out.

They've got a fledgling democracy . . . let's see what they can do on their own. Maybe the restored dignity from throwing off an occupier will get them to work better with each other. Or maybe not . . . maybe they'll have to just kill each other for while. Well, if they do so (which is likely) at least they can't blame it on us. It is at least worth a try. What we are currently doing isn't going to do anything in less than 5 to 20 years. That is a lot of wasted money & blood . . . why not try to stem it . . . or least lower the deaths of our own troops and lower the deaths that can be blamed on our troops.

We'd still be there watching things from a safe distance. We'd still have an intelligence network in-country. And if anything even remotely close to "Taliban-style Islamic state where al-Qaida is free to recruit and train" started to form, we could bomb it. Or re-invake and 'take them out'. (We are very good at that . . . the best actually.) But this 'occupation' thing just blows. Who wants to stand around in a country filled with people that don't want you there and will often tell you so with an IED or sniper bullet?

Here is my grand compromise for Bush and Congress. Have congress fund the war for a few more months, but Iraq must hold a referendum to decide: "Do you want the multi-national force to remain in Iraq?" We would then do what they ask. The only logical & factually accurate rational for the war is "Free Iraqis from a dictator and give them Democracy" (And that is certainly a noble & just goal.) Well, the referendum would be democracy in action.

Heh, there's so many reasons why this will never happen. Here's one of them:

060414_embassy_hmed_3p.hlarge.jpg


BAGHDAD, Iraq - The fortress-like compound rising beside the Tigris River here will be the largest of its kind in the world, the size of Vatican City, with the population of a small town, its own defense force, self-contained power and water, and a precarious perch at the heart of Iraq’s turbulent future.

The new U.S. Embassy also seems as cloaked in secrecy as the ministate in Rome.

“We can’t talk about it. Security reasons,” Roberta Rossi, a spokeswoman at the current embassy, said when asked for information about the project.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12319798/
 
theBishop said:
So at least in the US, you have millions of Christians supposedly believing in a socialist worldview, but allying themselves politically with Conservatives who base a their beliefs on a philosophy that also inspired "enlightened" Satanism.

Is it just me, or is somebody getting duped here?

The irony goes even further. The hardcore Objectivists are basically true-believers in 'survival of the fittest' . . . natural selection in other words. So the creationists Christians are basically worshipping an economic policy based upon the same exact principles that run evolution. Do you think they ever laugh the irony?

"Yeah, these economic principles have helped build these great economies that we worship . . . but there is no way these same principles could have possibly caused species to change, adapte, . . .evolve, over time.
 
theBishop said:
Heh, there's so many reasons why this will never happen.

What? We've put up a few buildings? So what? We p!ss away so much money in Iraq that sticking around just to protect the investment in those buildings is sheer economic stupidity. Let me put it another way . . .it is total state-subsidized socialism/communism. Is that what the right-wing has become? Total socialists?

Actually . . . when you think about . . they often are. Both Bush & Cheney have made most of their money by sucking off the teat of the state. Cheney's been a government worker for most of his life. He then sucked off the government at a private company that thrived on government money. Bush has been a government employee much of his life. And he made a lot of money by getting the Texas government to help build a new baseball stadium for his Rangers. OK, I take that back . . . you have a good point. :lol
 
loosus said:
That sounded very pretty! Please say this at my wedding.

PS: Stop thinking.

"Stop Thinking". Typical.

Whatever happened to telling him that he's wrong and proving it with some evidence?

speculawyer: That was kinda odd, heh. I don't know how to respond to that to be honest. Don't worry, I didn't take any offense. :)
 
speculawyer said:
What? We've put up a few buildings? So what? We p!ss away so much money in Iraq that sticking around just to protect the investment in those buildings is sheer economic stupidity. Let me put it another way . . .it is total state-subsidized socialism/communism. Is that what the right-wing has become? Total socialists?

Actually . . . when you think about . . they often are. Both Bush & Cheney have made most of their money by sucking off the teat of the state. Cheney's been a government worker for most of his life. He then sucked off the government at a private company that thrived on government money. Bush has been a government employee much of his life. And he made a lot of money by getting the Texas government to help build a new baseball stadium for his Rangers. OK, I take that back . . . you have a good point. :lol

The only justification i can think of for us remaining in Iraq is to find some of that 12 billion in cash we misplaced. ... nothing to see here folks...
 
Fight for Freeform said:
"Stop Thinking". Typical.

Whatever happened to telling him that he's wrong and proving it with some evidence?

speculawyer: That was kinda odd, heh. I don't know how to respond to that to be honest. Don't worry, I didn't take any offense. :)

that ended in 2000. in 2004, it showed its ugly face briefly before these guys beat it back down:
http://www.swiftvets.com/
 
theBishop said:
But the philosophy of Christ is pretty damn close to communism. Christ challenges religious/political authority throughout the gospels, and encourages people to love eachother, and more than that love their enemies.

So at least in the US, you have millions of Christians supposedly believing in a socialist worldview, but allying themselves politically with Conservatives who base a their beliefs on a philosophy that also inspired "enlightened" Satanism.

Is it just me, or is somebody getting duped here?

Christ doesn't challenge political authority. He does the opposite, telling people to pay their taxes cuz Rome is the boss of them. He does challenge religious authority, since he is, after all, claiming to be the source of the religion in the first place. In general, he is not socialist/communist, as he advocates private charity and personal choices/responsibility (rich young ruler, good samaritan, etc.), not litigation or other means of forcing people to do what he says they should. This is definitely out of step with everyone except libertarians, as both socialists and conservatives tend to try to force their moral codes on people through laws (taxes/welfare, creationist/intelligent design, porn/prostitution/sodomy, environmentalism, etc.). The reason that he is seen as a populist is that he says riches and power on earth are irrelevant and just hinder you from seeing what's really important. I don't think that has anything to do with politics.

And history has shown that religion is far better off when it's got no political or military power.
 
Fight for Freeform said:
I think David should be glad that uneducated and ignorant people like yourself are steering away from his games.

:lol OMG. Welcome to my ignore list. Obviously if people don't think along your liberal lines, they are uneducated and ignorant. You are a joke.
 
Dr_Cogent said:
:lol OMG. Welcome to my ignore list. Obviously if people don't think along your liberal lines, they are uneducated and ignorant. You are a joke.

Well, I'd love to be proven wrong. :)

BTW, I'm Conservative. :lol
 
Fight for Freeform said:
Well, I'd love to be proven wrong. :)

BTW, I'm Conservative. :lol

Could'da fooled me! You aren't going to listen to anything someone has to say to the contrary. Both sides have their minds made up already. It's just that some people, like you, act like they are intellectually superior somehow but you just come off as a jerk instead to those who don't agree with you. What you are stating is an opinion for the most part, and little of it is fact.

The real shame is that the world doesn't stand up to shit ass countries who treat their people like crap in general. If the free world had enough of this shit, more would be done. Unfortunately, most of the world is apathetic to the whole situation. As long as they aren't hurting, who cares.

So sick of us being blamed entirely for the actions of others. No one is forcing these ****s to blow themselves up killing innocents. Quit trying to spin it as if the Bush administration is making them somehow do this.

Debating the point of going in is legit. Acting like we are the sole reason for the chaos is a ****ing joke.
 
Dr_Cogent said:
Could'da fooled me! You aren't going to listen to anything someone has to say to the contrary. Both sides have their minds made up already. It's just that some people, like you, act like they are intellectually superior somehow but you just come off as a jerk instead to those who don't agree with you. What you are stating is an opinion for the most part, and little of it is fact.

I'm Conservative, not a NeoCon, there's a world of a difference. I'm not an imperialist, when it comes to my foreign policy views.

I don't think it's my opinion that the Invasion of Iraq was poorly planned, I think it's self evident. Same with the reasons to go to war, I don't think it's my opinion that there was no evidence of WMDs in Iraq...I think it's clear that there really was no evidence.

Same thing with the civil war happening right now. It's not my opinion, it's fact. Same with the fact that there is little in the way of policing and security. Little in the way of infrastructure. Again, this is all evident and apparent.

If you are claiming that "little of this is fact", I'd like for you to show me evidence. Hey, I'll be open minded. I'll change my mind if you can provide evidence that these "opinions" of mine are not true.

The real shame is that the world doesn't stand up to shit ass countries who treat their people like crap in general. If the free world had enough of this shit, more would be done. Unfortunately, most of the world is apathetic to the whole situation. As long as they aren't hurting, who cares.

If that's the case, the Bush Administration should have looked at many other countries and many other regions prior to Iraq. Saddam wasn't running an ethnic cleansing operation, like the one in Sudan. There was a lot more evidence of governmental oppression in countries like China, who after 9/11, claim to be targetting "terrorists" but human rights orgs claim otherwise.

Secondly, what is wrong with political pressure? You can't say it was going no where...Saddam actually destroyed weapons that did not break UN regulations, but did it to stop the threats of war. Why not make demands regarding human rights abuses and such?

So sick of us being blamed entirely for the actions of others. No one is forcing these ****s to blow themselves up killing innocents. Quit trying to spin it as if the Bush administration is making them somehow do this.

The Bush Administration made it possible for them. If the Administration decided to, one day, free all prisoners in American jails, and these criminals went on killing sprees...who do you hold responsible? "Bush can't control the actions of others", well, it was very predictable what the outcome was going to be.

Debating the point of going in is legit. Acting like we are the sole reason for the chaos is a ****ing joke.

If the US didn't invade Iraq, none of what is happening now, would be happening, do you agree?

If the US took it's time and had a legitimate reason for going into Iraq, they could have had multinational support, even from Arab countries who could provide soldiers better suited for peace keeping as they can interface with the public from the get go.

For the Bush Administration to not accept responsibility for creating this situation, and not being able to adapt to the situation once they opened their eyes and figured out that all hell was breaking loose, just tells me that they are playing with lives here and aren't taking the situation as seriously as they should.

Your argument is based on what anti-war people were saying from the get go. That invasion will spur a civil war. That many innocent people will die, no matter how advanced the military's weaponry is. That it will be a long term engagement. That this is an extremely volatile region that can negatively influence surrounding nations. That terrorists will use it as a rallying cause to garner more support. We knew, back then, that the Iraqis would start fighting each other. Heck, Barack Obama mentioned this in a 2002 interview. And now...you are attempting to lay all the blame on the people involved in the violence. It's as if you expected otherwise!

I don't know if this political discussion has gone too far on the Gaming side. If mods think this should end here (or continue in a separate thread in the OT section), I'll comply.
 
davidjaffe said:
The DESIRE TO SPREAD DEMOCRACY!?!?

Bitch, please.

I thought it was about stopping the terrorists who got us on 9/11? That changed? Because the terrorists of 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq!?! Oh, sorry. Got it! Ok, I'm down with the latest talking points from FOX NEWS.

NOW it's about weapons of mass destruction and getting rid of them so we don't have mushroom clouds over a major US city? Got it! So we can be safe and go t-...err? What's that you say? There were no weapons? That's NOT the reason we invaded?

Oh, right! Right! It's about helping the poor people suffering under Saddam! Got it! Cause that fits right in with Bush and his oh so Christian views of helping out those suffering in Darfur, right? Yeah, that seems consistent! I can get behind that! I'll put my money and the blood of America's youth behind this newest reasoning! You got it, Mr. O'reily! You got it, Mr. Bush!

What's that? It's about spreading democracy now?!?

Jesus, man, make up your mind which lie from King George you are following and MAYBE then people will actually start to buy into it.

David


What ever you think is going on, or the reasons it is going on you are as clueless as anyone elses...You think you know whats going on? You havent a clue. And neither does anyone else on this board. So stfu and make games. The fact you know how to make good games doesnt mean you know anything else. And talking about lies, just listen to your sony leader lies and spin each month when npd show ps3 isnt selling.

*** My post was edited by someone.

And Jaffe is free to have an opinion, but its bullcrap to say it is fact when you can not possibly back it up with anythng but he said, she said information. None of us will ever really know what was or wasnt true about the iraq war.


And this thread needs to be moved to OT.
 
This thread should be moved to the OT forum.

The bottom line is, has any of the changes Bush implementd in Iraq helped the country in any way?
 
AAK said:
This thread should be moved to the OT forum.

The bottom line is, has any of the changes Bush implementd in Iraq helped the country in any way?

I know some people keep ignoring it, but I'll post it again.

http://www.theotheriraq.com/

CHAPTER ONE: WHO ARE THE KURDS?

NARRATOR:
There is a saying among the Kurds: “No friends but the mountains.” For, indeed, the world has scarcely noticed when century after century, conqueror after conqueror has driven these once nomadic tribes deep within their beloved mountains to preserve their culture, their language and their lives.

Hidden in the shadows of history, resistance against repression became the Kurdish way of life, until atrocities inflicted by a dictator named Saddam Hussein sent shock waves throughout the world causing people of ever nation to ask, “Who are the Kurds?”

For many, awareness arrived on ‘Bloody Friday’ in March of nineteen eighty-eight when Saddam dropped poisonous gas on the Kurdish city of Halabja killing five thousand within minutes, followed by seven thousand more as the bombing continued for days.

Halabja was not Saddam’s only chemical attack against Iraq’s Kurds, it was simply the worst, captured in all its horrific detail, making it a symbol of the atrocities committed by Saddam Hussein.

INTERVIEW: RIZGAR HAMAWANDI
Saddam tried to wipe Kurdish people from the face of the earth. The people in Kurdistan are so happy because of the liberation and because now they can live in peace and free.

NARRATOR:
To trace the history of the Kurds, one must begin at the beginning – for it was here, in the land some believe was once the Garden of Eden, that this resilient ancient people first left their mark upon the world.

Nourished by the headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, archeologists believe it was within this Cradle of Civilization that Kurdish ancestors first pioneered agriculture, animal husbandry, weaving, metal work and the making of pottery.

NARRATOR:
For visitors, a trip through the land of the Kurds is a trip through Biblical history. The great prophets Nahum, Jonah, Habakkuk, and Daniel are all buried within the vast borders of what came to be known as Kurdistan.

The city of Amadiya still stands, marking the place many believe wise men known as magi began their journey to follow a great star that appeared in the sky.

As centuries passed, these tribes would fall to the forces of Alexander the Great at the Battle of Gaugamela…and later rise to their zenith as traders along the legendary Silk Road.

In time the Mongol hordes would make them prisoners…followed by the Ottomans who would make them princes.

But whether their occupiers were good or bad, killers or saints, the Kurds would learn to do what they must to survive.

At the end of World War I the Kurds were finally promised independence with the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire and the creation of new nation-states. Instead, with the stroke of a pen, Kurdistan was parceled out among Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq.

Today, the world’s thirty million Kurds, equivalent to the population of Canada, make up the largest ethnic group in existence without a recognized state of their own.

INTERVIEW: DR. ALI SAEED MOHAMMAD
We are neither Arabs, nor Turks, and not Persians. We are Muslims, but we are a different nation. We have our own language, our own history, and our own folklore, and everything.

INTERVIEW: JANO ROSEBIANI
The fact that we Kurds are a completely different ethnic group than the Arabs and the Turks and even the Persians…because of that background and also because of all of the suffering they have seen, they have a completely different mindset.

INTERVIEW: PROFESSOR NAZAR AMIN
At the time when the central Iraqi regime - before the toppling of Saddam Hussein, was busy with creating weapons of mass destruction, we were busy planting trees and creating new classes at our universities and opening new departments and building centers of education for our children and for our youth.

We are trying to build a nation. We are trying to improve the scientific standards of our community. We are trying to spread democracy. We are trying to teach the people how to respect each other and accept the rights of children and women in general.

INTERVIEW: NEHAD LATIF QOCHA
This country is a peaceful country. The people are very, very lovely. I don’t think that our region will be a dam between us and other countries and other cultures.

NARRATOR:
The Kurds are an ancient people who’ve lived their entire lives at the crossroads of the world, accustomed to living with people of many different religions. Today, as in the days of old, you will find in the hearts of the Kurdish people ethnic and religious tolerance.

INTERVIEW: JANO ROSEBIANI
Today, for instance, in Kurdistan you see churches beside mosques in the Kurdish cities. We have Christians, we have Armenians, we have Yezidies, we have Muslims, we have Jews. We have all types of religions and ethnic groups and we’ve been living together for ages and that shows how tolerant the Kurdish people are.

NARRATOR:
In the cities of Kurdistan you will see, not only Kurds, but Arabs, Turkmen, Assyrians, Armenians, Chaldeans, Shia, Sunni…all living peacefully side by side because this is who they are. This is how Kurdistan has always been, long before the country of Iraq ever existed.


Spin that please idealogs.

Freeform, talk to the hand, because you are on ignore.
 
AAK said:
And yet simultaneously, people also ignore:

http://iraqbodycount.org/

No one is ignoring that. It's talked about on a daily basis. It is not good news, no one likes it.

Americans don't deliberately target women and children. Spin. Crazy ****s are the root cause of this shit. Some people can just get along unlike others. Sure glad I don't live over there with all those psychopaths. Iran has great interest in the country taking a dive so they can move in.

The WMD argument is lame as well. That would mean that there was a conspiracy of epic proportions between Bush, Clinton, plenty of other foreign intelligence that said they did have WMDs. Also, it's not an impossibility that things could have been shipped out of state before the US invaded. Who knows. No one does. It's a ****ing mess, but the fact remains that it's evil terrorists that are creating unrest in Iraq and the government does not want us to just up and leave. Yes, Americans are dying. I pray for our boys over there every day.

It's hip to rail against the US. Bush is evil. Blah blah blah. I've heard it all. It gets tiresome listening to misguided BS.

People who desire freedom can have it. Those who don't (the crazy zealots) won't ever because their crazy fascist Islamic fundamentalism prevents them.

This is what Bush didn't realize. Murder committed by the Islamic fascists is by them and that is it.
 
Nobody is accusing America of intentionally causing all of this chaos.

I have no clue on how to convey my messege because saying it in words would make me sound like a Saddam supporter, which I am clearly not. So I'd rather not say it.

I just want to point out, while many have benefitted, many many more are being massacred and living with no clean water or power. More bloodshed has evolved from this move, and I think its time that Bush acknowledges his error and makes some changes.
 
Great game idea from Jaffe. It is so refreshing to have a game that is not another "Space Marines in chunky armor fight monsters and demons with really big guns... oh and chicks with big boobs."


The debate about Iraq is interesting. On one hand, the US army is all volunteers so if they willingly will go to Iraq and make an effort and get blown up by IEDs then why does the liberal congress think they know what's best and try to pull them out?

On the other hand, the idea Jaffe has is interesting. What if there was a country that was much much stronger than us. And they didn't like Bush. They didn't like him so much that they made up some excuses about the US being a danger to the world. Then they invaded our country, fought our military, hung Bush and installed a new government made up of their friends and then said that they weren't invading us, they were liberating us?

It should provoke discussion if nothing else and that is a good thing.
 
I'd enjoy seeing a completely liberal congress, president, and supreme court. I'd wager within 8 years liberals wouldn't be heard from again for about 40 years ahah. It would be the best thing ever for the conservative movement. So get some decent canditates guys and show us all how to do it ;). The entertainment value alone from it is worth the increased taxes I'll be hit with.
 
I dunno, but it seems odd to have China invading us when the idea is to condemn the U.S. I don't see how that would work, thematically.
Well, perhaps to "experiment" by first hand an occupation of your homeland by a foreging power in the name of a higher ideal (democracy or communism, in the end they are just pretty words that are used to back up the same actions), might lead to a better understanding of how the Iraquis feel right now. It makes complete sense and I really don't know why the crap is everyone and their mother bashing Jaffe other than "ZOMG he does not support this marvelous war and wants to express it on a videogame!".
 
theBishop said:
Reading their exchange, its funny how mixed up philosophies have been mixed and confused over the years.

For instance, Ayn Rand's Objectivist philosophy has been a very important foundation for modern conservatism in the US. The same conservatism that has been fused completely with the Christian right. But the philosophy of Christ is pretty damn close to communism. Christ challenges religious/political authority throughout the gospels, and encourages people to love eachother, and more than that love their enemies. This notion is absolutely contrary to Objectivism.

Her philosophy was never meant to be explicitly political. Conservatives and Libertarians have cherry-picked a lot of her ideas. She absolutely despised all political parties, though - lol

http://www.ellensplace.net/ar_pboy.html
 
If we ever lost democracy in America I would hope for our sake that some outside countries would invade and help us reestablish democracy again

And I wondered how Bush was reelected ! I've alwas thought that democracy was not a universal commodity to export but rather a product of a long internal gestation. And by internal, I mean internal.

"Do you want the multi-national force to remain in Iraq?"

Maybe the question shoud've beek asked before the new Rome decided to kick Saddam after it helped him get into power and armed him against Iran. You know what's more threatening than ideological terrorism : An ideological STATE terrorism.
 
Fight for Freeform said:
"Stop Thinking". Typical.

Whatever happened to telling him that he's wrong and proving it with some evidence?
:lol I didn't say he was right or wrong. I'm just saying that he, along with a good lot of other folks like yourself, think about some pretty dumb shit. You folks are lucky you haven't had a stroke with the amount of stress you've put into this.
 
---- said:
So you're a socialist? You would actually make a game that tries to show there is a good side to Socialism? :lol Wow. You're welcome to leave and go take up residency in China if you think there is any question as to which is better. I'm pretty sure all but the most insane of Americans would choose to fight for capitalism and democracy over socialism and communism. It's amazing to me that there is any ambiguity whatsoever in this for you. Why do you even live in America David Jaffe?

You are a ****ing moron. Sorr for saying this, but you really are. Holy shit, what a ****ing retard you are.
 
Norse said:
What ever you think is going on, or the reasons it is going on you are as clueless as anyone elses...You think you know whats going on? You havent a clue. And neither does anyone else on this board. So stfu and make games. The fact you know how to make good games doesnt mean you know anything else. And talking about lies, just listen to your sony leader lies and spin each month when npd show ps3 selling like the Bush plan on iraq.


Did you just pop up in this thread to take a shot at Sony?
 
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