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[drakesfortune]

I think that when it comes to the PS3/360 that Japanese developers are just sucking hard. They're totally owning the handheld space though.

I also think that if you look at the Wii, DS, PS3, and PSP, that the Japanese are great innovators on the hardware side. I think the fact that employees and to a greater extent employers stick with their company/employees that there isn't enough cross pollination going on in Japan and that's really holding them back big time in the "next gen" PS3/360 arena.

I also think the money is in DS and Wii right now, so there isn't much motivation for these Japanese devs to do much on the next gen platforms. It's very unfortunate. Watching the PS3 suffer in Japan due to the complete lack of Japan centric titles coming out is very sad.

 

[proposition]

Hasn't the Wii shown that the Japanese still get it and the Western developers are the ones who are lagging behind?

It's more like the team at Nintendo who invented the Wii 'still get it'. That's hardly the whole of Japanese games developers.

 

[Flakster99]

Western devs have been excellent all along, it just up until recently all the amazing stuff has been mostly on PC.

I know this has been commented on since you posted, but upon seeing the thread title, this was precisely what I was going to post.

Western developers on the PC have been excellent for decades, and now they continue to be less so on the PC and moreso on consoles.

It is nice that Kojima, Yamaoka, and Miyamoto give credit, but western developers have been producing quality, unique, mature content for just as long, if not longer. This is nothing new but the veil of ignorance and innocence from quality western development being removed and now western developers getting their respective due.

 

[imek]

Only 4 posts about Yamaoka's and Miyamoto's quotes being out of context, which I find somewhat surprising seeing as GAF usually picks up on these things, but hey, why pass up an opportunity to have a discussion about which country (or region rather), design principles and implementation is "better".

 

[Dali]

To some degree it might be true but I think they are too humble and modest about it. Simply put, there are no one in the west that could compare to Kojima or Miyamoto.

That's probably more a function of the difference in how things work rather anything else. In Japan you have these "modest" and "humble" individuals like Itagaki, Kojima, and Miyamoto put on a pedestal while they expound on their genius. They take credit for every aspect of a game and seem to have total control over the final product. In the west whether an accurate observation or not it seems like more things are decided by committee. You look at games like Assassin's Creed and Prince of Persia and the average person has no idea who was over these games. That's probably for the best as one individual probably doesn't deserve an inordinate amount of praise as being the person that made those games a reality. Only recently (like last gen) have people involved in the creation of western console games been put into the spot light and made into some symbolic god of a game.

 

[Melville]

American art in video games is... average (hello Gears of War!), but that doesn't mean everything coming from Japan is good (hello Ninja Gaiden!).

 

[Kodiak]

Perhaps this is why games like Silent Hill 5 (lol), Alone in the Dark, Bionic Commando and the like are being outsourced to western developers? It makes perfect sense when considering the points made in the OP.

 

[Y2Kev]

It's more like the team at Nintendo who invented the Wii 'still get it'. That's hardly the whole of Japanese games developers.

I guess so.

Regarding handhelds-- largely seems like a Japanese effort with some pathetic input on the whole by Western developers, no?

 

[newsguy]

American art in video games is... average (hello Gears of War!), but that doesn't mean everything coming from Japan is good (hello Ninja Gaiden!).

2 equally lame points.

 

[RumFore]

I agree with the article and I blame it on PS3 or the fact many Japanese devs hoped it would be another PS2 all the while over-looking Wii and 360. I think Japanese devs will rebound but even with the 360 out of the picture for most seem at a crossroads with the Wii doing so good and the PS3 slowly getting there and then there is that technology gap between the two.

 

[Campster]

This is another one of those threads that highlights how an alarming number of gamers need an absolute answer to things. Either The West is better or The East is better; there is no in between and no grey zone. The actual answer to this would be worthy of a series of essays - where is the west failing in its designs? Where is Japan? What are the strengths of their design philosophies, if any unifying design philosophies can, in fact, be described for either?

Instead, we have four pages of "The west is better because we don't make anime artstyles!" and "Japan is better because at least they don't make first person shooters!" Fighting over absolutes in these situations does no good to anyone; concessions are going to have to be made if we're going to get anywhere. Neither is "losing touch," but it's clear that Japan doesn't have certain strengths the west does and vice versa. Perhaps a more constructive question would be "How do Japan's design philosophies and business practices stack up against a changing audience at home and abroad?"

 

[Guled]

The thing is, Japan release less games (as in they take longer to make it), but they are polished as hell. You wouldn't see a game from Japan being patched like here in NA.

 

[MutFox]

This is another one of those threads that highlights how an alarming number of gamers need an absolute answer to things. Either The West is better or The East is better; there is no in between and no grey zone. The actual answer to this would be worthy of a series of essays - where is the west failing in its designs? Where is Japan? What are the strengths of their design philosophies, if any unifying design philosophies can, in fact, be described for either?

Instead, we have four pages of "The west is better because we don't make anime artstyles!" and "Japan is better because at least they don't make first person shooters!" Fighting over absolutes in these situations does no good to anyone; concessions are going to have to be made if we're going to get anywhere. Neither is "losing touch," but it's clear that Japan doesn't have certain strengths the west does and vice versa. Perhaps a more constructive question would be "How do Japan's design philosophies and business practices stack up against a changing audience at home and abroad?"

.

 

[CompositeMolar]

Regarding handhelds-- largely seems like a Japanese effort with some pathetic input on the whole by Western developers, no?

Of course, that's where the money is at right now in Japan. If we only look at 360 and PS3 of course Japan output looks pitiful because that's just not where they can make money yet. Some Japanese companies are losing touch for sure but we could say the same about some western ones.

 

[Diablos]

We are into online gaming but they are not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like we Americans are getting into online gaming whereas Japan really has been captivated by the handheld (DS) market.

Could that be part of the issue here? Devs are pouring more time into making DS games in Japan, probably more than they have in the past (again, correct me if I'm wrong). Next-gen outside of Wii is pretty meh in Japan. Nobody gives a damn about 360 over there (sadly), and Wii stole PS3's crown, and it's not doing anything that great. Europe seems to be Sony's best bet right now.

That said, western games are really kicking Japan's ass this gen. I still love Japanese games (two of my top three games of this gen so far are Japanese [Dead Rising and Blue Dragon]), but it seems like they aren't as influential over here as they used to be. IMO, that sucks.

 

[linsivvi]

I still found it hilarious somebody used the 360 top 10 list to support his statement.

 

[freddy]

Japan is years behind in grey and brown technology and their Bald Space Marine engine is pathetic.

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Technosteve]

lmao

you forgot Peter Molyneux

I remember him for his Bullfrog days and also black and white.

 

[duckroll]

The thing is, Japan release less games (as in they take longer to make it), but they are polished as hell. You wouldn't see a game from Japan being patched like here in NA.

Yeah, instead they either recall the games or sell the patched version 6 months later as a Director's Cut!

 

[Robert Ashley]

Most of us grew up on Japanese games, but as we got older, PC-style games from the west became more appealing (whether played on the PC or on consoles). Japanese games can still be great, but they usually aim at a younger demographic.

I'm really charmed when something like the original Warioware, Katamari Demacy, or No More Heroes comes around, but I have no interest in anime-tinged teenybopper games like DMC 4 or Ninja Gaiden.

 

[Dali]

The thing is, Japan release less games (as in they take longer to make it), but they are polished as hell. You wouldn't see a game from Japan being patched like here in NA.

:lol

Wait, what?

I guess it's technically not a patch if you just re-release it the with the bugs fixed and add a bit of content.

As to your other point, you've got a handful of developers that take a fucking decade to release one game, but the rest spit crap out like every other developer east or west. Even the companies that take time on one game usually release a lot of stuff in the interim.

 

[Ariexv]

Well really... looking @ this gen so far... Western controls Consoles, Eastern seems to control Portables....

Top 15 360 games
1 Grand Theft Auto IV
2 BioShock
3 Orange Box, The
4 Gears of War
5 Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, The
6 Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
7 Halo 3
8 Rock Band
9 Guitar Hero II
10Mass Effect
11Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter
12Forza Motorsport 2
13Call of Duty 2
14Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
15Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas

1 Eastern Game, 14 Western games?

Ps3
1 Grand Theft Auto IV
2 Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
3 Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, The
4 Rock Band
5 Orange Box, The
6 Ratchet & Clank Future: Tools of Destruction
7 Uncharted: Drake's Fortune
8 Ninja Gaiden Sigma
9 Burnout Paradise
10Unreal Tournament 3
11Resistance: Fall of Man
12Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas
13NHL 08
14MLB 08: The Show
15 Virtua Fighter 5

2 Eastern, 13 Western

PC
1 Half-Life 2
2 Out of the Park Baseball 2007
3 Orange Box, The
4 Half-Life
5 BioShock
6 Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
7 Command & Conquer
8 Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
9 Civilization II
10Quake
11Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, The
12Grim Fandango
13Diablo
14Civilization IV
15Company of Heroes

Uhh 15 western?

 

[gconsole]

personally, i think capcom has adapted in the wrong way. japanese developers shouldn't need to worry about grabbing a global market (as in, making a game for westerners). japanese developers don't need to mimic western developers. i think in some ways, konami and namco are also guilty of this. they brainstorm about what western gamers want. they look at western games and mimic them. this isn't ideal at all.

Capcom do not always worry about global market. Their game is already for internaltional user since Rockman, I would say almost of their game has global appeal since FC day. The thing that Capcom just do right is adapt the western game making philosophy by trying to create its own engine and reuse in every game. Capcom has their way to design the game and they always do it. What you can see in RE4 is not what you can get from general western game. So i'm not sure how do you mean Capcom is heading in wrong way.

They do not try to grab global user just because they want to but because the current status of japanese console market force them to do so. If they continue to run the business by gaining less and less profit in their home market. That will be the problem.

 

[BoilersFan23]

I partially agree. Although I've preferred Japanese games over Western games for years; however, on next gen consoles, it seems like Japanese games output has good down tremendously. I remember last gen and before, seeing almost every game with a Konami, Namco, Square, Capcom, etc. logo on it, and now it seems like there are very few (unless we are looking at handhelds). In the past for an example, there would be a flood of Namco games I was looking forward to, and now it seems to be just a few every year. It even seems like Capcom, Konami, etc. are outsourcing more games to the west also.

 

[proposition]

Exactly what I was thinking.

Me too. Meanwhile, Western devs just totally dropped the ball on Generic Ladyboy Anime Art Style. Western developers are ahead in only one area: sucking.

 

[andycapps]

When I was younger, pretty much every game I owned came from Japan. Now it's the opposite. Now my collection is all Western made games and I'm actually surprised when I do buy a game made in Japan.

I guess too, I turned into a multiplaying gamer and JPN studios are light years behind the US in that regard. Just look at the clusterfuck of MGO and the sign up process for that. They still have years and years to learn how to get it right and I don't know if they ever will.

I really don't know what happened over there.

This sums it up for me.

 

[Robert Ashley]

Polish is overrated. I'd rather play something rough and interesting. A lot of Nintendo's recent games have all the soul of a Fleetwood Mac record, with the "polish" to back it up. That said, when it comes to arcade-style games, Japan has never been beaten [drifts into Dreamcast reverence].

 

[Guled]

:lol

Wait, what?

I guess it's technically not a patch if you just re-release it the with the bugs fixed and add a bit of content.

As to your other point, you've got a handful of developers that take a fucking decade to release one game, but the rest spit crap out like every other developer east or west. Even the companies that take time on one game usually release a lot of stuff in the interim.

Alright right, let me try again. American developers make more good games, but the best games are from Japan

 

[HK-47]

I guess so.

Regarding handhelds-- largely seems like a Japanese effort with some pathetic input on the whole by Western developers, no?

On the whole would be unfair to the fine fellows at 5th Cell and Wayforward

 

[OldJadedGamer]

The thing is, Japan release less games (as in they take longer to make it), but they are polished as hell. You wouldn't see a game from Japan being patched like here in NA.

 

[proposition]

Alright right, let me try again. American developers make more good games, but the best games are from Japan

Again, kind of a gross generalisation.

 

[RiZ III]

Whatever. Capcom's MT Framework is an engineering masterpiece.

 

[revolverjgw]

Polish is overrated. I'd rather play something rough and interesting. A lot of Nintendo's recent games have all the soul of a Fleetwood Mac record, with the "polish" to back it up. That said, when it comes to arcade-style games, Japan has never been beaten [drifts into Dreamcast reverence].

Hey

Fleetwood Mac had some pretty awesome moments, before and during their ''pop'' eras.

 

[Ariexv]

Alright right, let me try again. American developers make more good games, but the best games are from Japan

That's completely you're opinion.... there's some great jpn games but there's Western games that are just as good if not better and they seem to come out alot more often.

 

[Anasui Kishibe]

Galaxy exceeded any expectation, so..
I don't know if it speaks for the whole Japan, but still

 

[GhaleonQ]

While I love both regions dearly and feel like they innovate, gameplay-wise, in different genres, I really think that when North American games succeed, it's because they pull a Hollywood and pour money into the project until a boring idea is made exciting. When Japanese games succeed, it's because they had an interesting concept in the first place.

This is all generally speaking, of course (by my logic, Psychonauts is extremely "Japanese" in its design aesthetic).

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I think most need to realize that Japan has not even brought out the big guns. Sony and Square are sleeping giants.

 

[Ynos Yrros]

GT5P pees on everything you are trying to convey with this topic, suddenly a new stream of pee is falling on your opinion from an unknown source, oh it's MGS4 using octocamo.

 

[newsguy]

Me too. Meanwhile, Western devs just totally dropped the ball on Generic Ladyboy Anime Art Style. Western developers are ahead in only one area: sucking.

:lol While the sucking bit is taking it a step over, I think you make a good point here. A fun comparison is the East vs. West coast rap wars. In rap it was huge and the sides were very different if you knew about it.

Rap West: Gang violence, fairly laid back beats with little bell tingles and electronic voices.

Games West: Bald space marine violence, farily muted colors with cheesy voice acting

Rap East: Hardcore, grimy guys with gold teeth who will rob you on the subway.

Games East: Softcore, girly guys with huge eyes who will make sweet love to you on a unicorn.

 

[Teknoman]

Its funny because alot of western people tend to think eastern/japanese devs make more original stuff.

Grass greener syndrome I say. Both sides of the world are doing great for gaming.

 

[Id.]

Japan's touch is just aimed in a different direction.

 

[Victrix]

I'm inclined to agree with this. Looking over my purchases over the last year (hell, the last several years), the vast majority of my purchases have been western. A fair number have been unpolished, rough messes, but a lot more have been a ton of fun.

On the other hand, the majority of the japanese games I've bought have been a) DS or b) Wii. They don't make PC games that I care about, and with a few (notable) exceptions, they haven't made many 360/PS3 titles I've either purchased, or am inclined to purchase in the future.

They also fail badly (really badly) in the online multiplayer department, and that's a problem, as I love to play games with my friends.

On a random note, I'm genuinely surprised that Japan wasn't the first out the door with a 360 or PS3 MMO. I'm actually kind of surprised it hasn't happened from a western dev either, I don't know what the issue is.

Not that this means that western devs are inherently *better* (I have my own set of gripes about western issues that crop up time and again), more that I'm just less excited overall by Japan's output. Again, there are some very high quality exceptions, but looking at my games library, my purchasing habits seem to be pointing to this as truth.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

The amount of crap in this thread is just ridiculous.

You saying that the final version of MGO *won't* have three different log ins just to see the START screen?

Yeah except that there was only one log in screen. Did you play it? You put in your game ID. That's it.

MGO is a great step in the right direction and is probably going to be one of the best online games to ever come out of Japan.

Oh and I don't really get the whole idea that Japan fails at everything online. I personally remember having my first online console experience with the Dreamcast....Musta been mistaken or something but I coulda swore I was playing games online (some w/ voice). Hope I am not going senile.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

GT5P pees on everything you are trying to convey with this topic, suddenly a new stream of pee is falling on your opinion from an unknown source, oh it's MGS4 using octocamo.

The full GT3 game came out almost exactly one year after the PS2 launched. How long after the PS3 launched will it be before the full version of GT5 is out?

 

[Bebpo]

Most of us grew up on Japanese games, but as we got older, PC-style games from the west became more appealing (whether played on the PC or on consoles). Japanese games can still be great, but they usually aim at a younger demographic.

I'm really charmed when something like the original Warioware, Katamari Demacy, or No More Heroes comes around, but I have no interest in anime-tinged teenybopper games like DMC 4 or Ninja Gaiden.

I don't think this is it at all. Most people here still like the same types of games as 10 years ago. The divide is mostly graphical (because western games have better technology) and output (because western games can release yearly now with fast development and Japanese games are taking forever to come out).

I don't think there is a "I used to like jumping on turtles but now I need my bald marine space fucking or I'm just not having any fun" issue at hand here.

 

[Tenbatsu]

Still, in terms of technical side, I think western got the upper hand.

 

[MassiveAttack]

Ironically, some of the best graphics programmers in the world are Japanese. The issue is that they are so far and few between in Japan that it isn't readily noticeable except on a handful of projects, some extremely well known and others known only to GAF.

 

[HK-47]

The amount of crap in this thread is just ridiculous.



Yeah except that there was only one log in screen. Did you play it? You put in your game ID. That's it.

MGO is a great step in the right direction and is probably going to be one of the best online games to ever come out of Japan.

Oh and I don't really get the whole idea that Japan fails at everything online. I personally remember having my first online console experience with the Dreamcast....Musta been mistaken or something but I coulda swore I was playing games online (some w/ voice). Hope I am not going senile.

Wonderful IF PC didnt exist. West will have the edge, maybe forever, in the domain of online gaming

 

[Dali]

Oh and I don't really get the whole idea that Japan fails at everything online. I personally remember having my first online console experience with the Dreamcast....Musta been mistaken or something but I coulda swore I was playing games online (some w/ voice). Hope I am not going senile.

If this thread were about what Japan accomplished in the past then there wouldn't be much dispute in here at all. Yeah Sega brought online console gaming to the masses, but you are acting as though they (Japanese developers in general) haven't almost completely dropped the ball since. When people bite their nails wondering if a new fighting game (or pretty-much anything Japanese developed for that matter) will have an online component then something is seriously wrong.

 

[inner-G]

Technically they may be better, but I've only played a handful of Western games that I really enjoyed in the last few years.

I probably buy 2-3X more Japanese games than Western ones.