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Japan is losing its touch at game making
- Thread starter Ether_Snake
- Start date
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Kojima is right for once.
This is the reason Japanese gaming is in the Dark Ages when it comes to on-line gaming.
Yes Japan, you can use the Internet for more that posting drawings of Poison sans Daisy Dukes.
This is the reason Japanese gaming is in the Dark Ages when it comes to on-line gaming.
Yes Japan, you can use the Internet for more that posting drawings of Poison sans Daisy Dukes.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
I couldn't (even if I tried reaaaaally hard) disagree more.
Just because the gaming industry has become financially large enough to attract more press, therefor giving more media exposure to games that were developed by companies you can easily invest in and therefor people can make more money by promoting, and in turn this added press have gotten more people to purchase games (broading their reach), who seem to be more attracted to gritty violent games like Gears of War or games that use Western-skewing music/instruments hardly - at all - signifies Japan as "losing touch at game making" - what a narrowminded statement.
I don't even know what games they are talking about. Is this just from a technical level? What, Gears of War? Madden? Eastern games are still the lifeblood of the industry, if you ask me. Far more creativity coming from that sector than the West, which are still far more focus-group and marketing dependent.
Just because the gaming industry has become financially large enough to attract more press, therefor giving more media exposure to games that were developed by companies you can easily invest in and therefor people can make more money by promoting, and in turn this added press have gotten more people to purchase games (broading their reach), who seem to be more attracted to gritty violent games like Gears of War or games that use Western-skewing music/instruments hardly - at all - signifies Japan as "losing touch at game making" - what a narrowminded statement.
I don't even know what games they are talking about. Is this just from a technical level? What, Gears of War? Madden? Eastern games are still the lifeblood of the industry, if you ask me. Far more creativity coming from that sector than the West, which are still far more focus-group and marketing dependent.
Dark Octave
Banned
I agree. Japanese games have not changed much in style since the PS1 days. The fad has simply shifted towards the western side of things, that's all. Americans have basically stepped their game up. Now it's Japan's turn to re-evaluate and push themselves harder.Vaandaviii said:
I believe that the presence of the Xbox and Xbox360 has played a huge role in the shift of interest in US games as well.
JasoNsider
Member
Wow, totally disagree. If anything is out of touch with anything it's this notion being out of touch with reality. Developers in Japan are just as great, if not greater on average then the rest of the world's game efforts.
If you take the AAA efforts from either NA or Japan you often find Japan is teaching the world about quality control in general. The Japanese have also, more often than America, attempted risky products. This flies in the face of some comments here that make it seem like Japanese developers just rehash their same game for the last 15 years. ICO, Shadow of the Colossus, Okami, the list goes on...these games take some real design risks.
Some of America's so called AAA dev houses like Ubisoft produce really image-driven titles. They really often come across as being conceptualized in a board room by people deciding what will sell. This is obviously not across the board, but I see this far more often in North American games. Japan has Devil May Cry which is image conscious, but they began this and was developed with the idea of creating the first game action movie...and pulled it off with grace!
If you take the AAA efforts from either NA or Japan you often find Japan is teaching the world about quality control in general. The Japanese have also, more often than America, attempted risky products. This flies in the face of some comments here that make it seem like Japanese developers just rehash their same game for the last 15 years. ICO, Shadow of the Colossus, Okami, the list goes on...these games take some real design risks.
Some of America's so called AAA dev houses like Ubisoft produce really image-driven titles. They really often come across as being conceptualized in a board room by people deciding what will sell. This is obviously not across the board, but I see this far more often in North American games. Japan has Devil May Cry which is image conscious, but they began this and was developed with the idea of creating the first game action movie...and pulled it off with grace!
rykomatsu
Member
JasonUresti said:
Holy crap...X-com:UFO Defense from Microprose...I thought I was the only person who remembered that game. One of the few games that actually struck panic in me....seeing through a building window an alien move across the screen then disappearing into the fog of war...man...crazy. Too bad terror from the deep wasn't as good :|
The Take Out Bandit
Member
JasoNsider said:
I am fixing things! :O
JasoNsider
Member
ksamedi said:
Technically though, if you take the best from both groups, both are great. People from either camps could list amazing examples of tech from both. And let's be honest:
Best tech in GameCube game:
RE4 (retro close behind with metroid?)
Best tech in PS2:
Metal Gear Solid 2/3
Best tech in Wii:
Mario Galaxy
Best tech on PS3:
?? MGS4 maybe, which is also Japan.
Best tech in Xbox and Xbox 360
?? Rare?
GTA4 is in no way a contender if tech quality is also being taken into account here, because we all know about the framerate, animation, etc.
If this were as bad as they say, Zack & Wiki, HSG5, MGS3, TWEWY, Ikaruga, UGnG, (and GTA4) wouldn't be in my consoles/handhelds right now.
Non-Japanese devs are talented, but Japan still creates most of my favorite games.
I see this as little more than these guys being overly humble... and challenging J-devs to step it up (and maybe make western devs a little lazy with the ego stroke
).
Non-Japanese devs are talented, but Japan still creates most of my favorite games.
I see this as little more than these guys being overly humble... and challenging J-devs to step it up (and maybe make western devs a little lazy with the ego stroke
).PataHikari
Banned
HK-47 said:
2D is old tech and a sign of Japans continuing stagnation and doom.
Same with handhelds, they're old tech. Only Japan, which utterly sucks at gaming uses them.
I'm surprised there is so little discussion of handhelds -- a few people have mentioned them, but no one has responded with meaningful counter arguments or dialogue.
It seems clear to me that a substantial portion of Japanese developer focus has shifted to handheld gaming. I think it's apparent that some people equate this with "losing their touch," but fairly clearly you're wrong, as handheld gaming is selling better and better around the world, particularly in these developers' home country. It's entirely possible, if not likely, that the Nintendo Dual Screen handheld gaming device is going to become the best selling video game system of all time, worldwide.
I think the better statement would be "Japan is losing its touch at making games that push the tech envelope and suit my personal interest," which is a truer statement for some. The reason isn't because they suddenly stopped being good at making games, it's that they're going in a different direction. If you don't like that direction, that's fine.
It seems clear to me that a substantial portion of Japanese developer focus has shifted to handheld gaming. I think it's apparent that some people equate this with "losing their touch," but fairly clearly you're wrong, as handheld gaming is selling better and better around the world, particularly in these developers' home country. It's entirely possible, if not likely, that the Nintendo Dual Screen handheld gaming device is going to become the best selling video game system of all time, worldwide.
I think the better statement would be "Japan is losing its touch at making games that push the tech envelope and suit my personal interest," which is a truer statement for some. The reason isn't because they suddenly stopped being good at making games, it's that they're going in a different direction. If you don't like that direction, that's fine.
Torquill
Member
I don't think they're "lesser", I just think it's clear they've moved their focus elsewhere.
Konami, Capcom, Enix, and SCEJ still put out titles that are very impressive technically.
I actually looked through my game collection the other day and noticed I do not OWN a single Western developed console game, except for my Metroid Prime games. This was nothing I've done deliberatly, I was actually quite shocked.
I certainly have quite a few western PC games, and I play quite a few western console games, but I rarely buy them. I usually just rent them. Again, nothing I've ever done deliberatly.
Of course, of the current gen, I own 1 360 game, 3 PSP games, and quite a few DS games so....
/shrugs
Konami, Capcom, Enix, and SCEJ still put out titles that are very impressive technically.
I actually looked through my game collection the other day and noticed I do not OWN a single Western developed console game, except for my Metroid Prime games. This was nothing I've done deliberatly, I was actually quite shocked.
I certainly have quite a few western PC games, and I play quite a few western console games, but I rarely buy them. I usually just rent them. Again, nothing I've ever done deliberatly.
Of course, of the current gen, I own 1 360 game, 3 PSP games, and quite a few DS games so....
/shrugs
Generally speaking, I think it's true that western devs have more resources available for creating high end graphics/engines. Western devs are also really into online development. These two points are the main strenghts of these kinds of devs I think.
But to say Japan is losing it's touch at game making? What the hell? I don't see how you came to that conclusion.
Personally, I think Japan is still very much on top of their game. If you take a look at Nintendo for example, you could say the graphics are inferior to western competition, but is it really? Why not compare on the same system.. you know, and not to 2 systems that are capable of far more than Wii. Nintendo's top games are very impressive. They always make their own engines for a lot of different games, they always make games with a perfect fps, very, very little bugs, graphics in titles such as Galaxy are more than excellent (they have multiple amazing dev teams that are generally considered to belong to the best in the world, and I think they can make excellent graphics on any system, like they have proven time and time again), the amount of polish/details are also very high. Not to mention that the actual gameplay of their internally developed titles are mostly excellent (and of course the music the make/compose should get a mention too). Their games belong to the best this industry has to offer, generation after generation and they also singlehandidly changed the industry with the Wii and DS (losing it's touch at game making, yeah..). And company's like Square Enix, Konami, Capcom etc certainly are no slouch either.
Personally, looking at the games on my most-wanted list that are yet to be released, the majority are from Japan, and I think they (the Japanese developers) are still pretty damn good. The games made by western devs are great too, I don't see why you can't have both
But to say Japan is losing it's touch at game making? What the hell? I don't see how you came to that conclusion.
Personally, I think Japan is still very much on top of their game. If you take a look at Nintendo for example, you could say the graphics are inferior to western competition, but is it really? Why not compare on the same system.. you know, and not to 2 systems that are capable of far more than Wii. Nintendo's top games are very impressive. They always make their own engines for a lot of different games, they always make games with a perfect fps, very, very little bugs, graphics in titles such as Galaxy are more than excellent (they have multiple amazing dev teams that are generally considered to belong to the best in the world, and I think they can make excellent graphics on any system, like they have proven time and time again), the amount of polish/details are also very high. Not to mention that the actual gameplay of their internally developed titles are mostly excellent (and of course the music the make/compose should get a mention too). Their games belong to the best this industry has to offer, generation after generation and they also singlehandidly changed the industry with the Wii and DS (losing it's touch at game making, yeah..). And company's like Square Enix, Konami, Capcom etc certainly are no slouch either.
Personally, looking at the games on my most-wanted list that are yet to be released, the majority are from Japan, and I think they (the Japanese developers) are still pretty damn good. The games made by western devs are great too, I don't see why you can't have both
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
Terrell said:
EH. a case can be made for platformers, and rpgs. Tho, most platformers made by americans/europeans are typically hybrid platformers rather than all out platformers....And with that said, Psychonauts > all biotch. And as far as rpgs, thats a can of worms and debate you dont want to get into....but yea, thats also debatable as to who makes better rpgs these days. Saying "action games that dont use guns" is just getting way too technical. an action game is an action game...period.
maybe you got me on puzzle games. I really dont know who made what puzzle games as I dont really play them much.
so there, Fighting games, soccer games, and puzzle games. but thats it.
<edit>
well, just read the replies after me...guess we got puzzle games too...haha
eatyobeans
Member
I have to agree, I think everyone does. SquareEnix is just not what they used to be, though i believe FFXIII and DQIX will be the test to see if they can really push things forward (FF) while keeping what is loved the same (DQ). Either way, theyre taking forever to make anything these days. Konami has kind of gotten in a rut- so much of their identity is now Kojima, that theyre focusing almost entirely on MGS. Castlevania and PES sequels are fine but nothing new. Theyre farming out many franchises such as Contra and Silent Hill to western devs. I think SH has overstayed its welcome and become redundant. BandaiNamco is also pretty much lost in a sequel factory. Katamari didnt need another sequel. Ace Combat 6 was good, but not remarkable. Same with the latest Ridge Racer game. Im sure the upcoming Soul Calibur IV and Tales titles will be solid, but theyre just more of the quickly getting old franchises. Theyre just not as exciting as they used to be. Sega is becoming more Western all the time. Theyre focusing more on abusing Sonic and licensed games like Iron Man and The Incredible Hulk. Shame that they didnt put more publishing muscle behind Condemned 2. Games like Yakuza 3 and Valkyrie of the Battlefield show they still have talent and quality in their internal studios, but the market doesnt seem to care. Blame it on the struggling PS3 i guess. Sonic Unleashed will be another big test for both the publisher and the mascot. Lastly is Capcom- who has always been one of my fav Japanese devs, and theyve been doing decently this gen. DMC4, Lost Planet, and Dead Rising are all above average though unspectacular games, but have sold quite well. I really hope RE5 and SFIV are awesome, and that Capcom takes all the time they need to make them so. I also hope the new Bionic Commando doesnt suck. And finally, above everyone else is Nintendo. Their big first party titles- Mario, Smash, Zelda, etc remain of very high quality, ecspecially Mario Galaxy which was amazing. I just think theyre focusing a bit too much on casual gaming.
What ive noticed is, that many of early 2008s biggest games are Japanese, and look/are excellent.
Devil May Cry 4
No More Heroes
Professor Layton
Ace Attorney 4
Patapon
Super Smash Bros Brawl
Crisis Core: FFVII
The World Ends With You
Mario Kart Wii
Wii Fit
Ninja Gaiden 2
Metal Gear Solid 4
Outside of GTAIV and a few others, thats most of the major games of Jan-June 08. Its true that Japan has been a bit lacking as of late. Part of it seems to stem from the market- portables are taking over Japan, the PS3 is seriously underperforming, and the Wii came out of no where. Its definitely surprising some developers- the world went from PS2 with some GBA to DS with some Wii in a very short time.
The games are coming though, and some innovative ideas like Patapon and The World Ends With You are still shining through, along with big budget sequels like Brawl, MGS4, and NG2. I definitely agree that Western devs have surpassed Japan, ecspecially in 07 where pretty much all the big games were Western besides Nintendo (Galaxy, PH, Diamond/Pearl). But in 08, Japan is coming back a bit.
What ive noticed is, that many of early 2008s biggest games are Japanese, and look/are excellent.
Devil May Cry 4
No More Heroes
Professor Layton
Ace Attorney 4
Patapon
Super Smash Bros Brawl
Crisis Core: FFVII
The World Ends With You
Mario Kart Wii
Wii Fit
Ninja Gaiden 2
Metal Gear Solid 4
Outside of GTAIV and a few others, thats most of the major games of Jan-June 08. Its true that Japan has been a bit lacking as of late. Part of it seems to stem from the market- portables are taking over Japan, the PS3 is seriously underperforming, and the Wii came out of no where. Its definitely surprising some developers- the world went from PS2 with some GBA to DS with some Wii in a very short time.
The games are coming though, and some innovative ideas like Patapon and The World Ends With You are still shining through, along with big budget sequels like Brawl, MGS4, and NG2. I definitely agree that Western devs have surpassed Japan, ecspecially in 07 where pretty much all the big games were Western besides Nintendo (Galaxy, PH, Diamond/Pearl). But in 08, Japan is coming back a bit.
xs_mini_neo
Banned
As long as both continue to indulge in ridiculous videogames stereotypes, they will always be behind in some way.
AdventureRacing
Member
PataHikari said:
:lol Did i look at the wrong NPD numbers?
biggkidd32
Member
RE5
I'd also point out that even 'Eastern' gaming isn't limited to Japan, since Korean/Chinese games are far, far better today than a few years back.
Although they've got a long way to go, at least they're on the right track; people who've enjoyed an IGS' arcade game or DJ Max (Portable or Arcade) should also give kudos to these guys.
Although they've got a long way to go, at least they're on the right track; people who've enjoyed an IGS' arcade game or DJ Max (Portable or Arcade) should also give kudos to these guys.
MisterHero
Super Member
I thought the context of Miyamoto's comment was towards Western INDIE devs because they had better access to technology whereas in Japan you had to be part of a bigger company to get on the big platforms.
Don't know about the others though.
Don't know about the others though.
proposition
Banned
Just because there aren't a million posts every day saying how brilliant X-Com: UFO Defense is doesn't mean it's not better than 99% of the games for which there are.rykomatsu said:
PataHikari
Banned
AdventureRacing said:
Did I really need to post sarcasm tags?
Really?
wow what a thread.
Japan. losing its touch. lol. why? because x,y,z from teh west!
Nevermind that Japan is all portable and Wii. Wait...what's huge worldwide? wii! who's dominating portable gaming worldwide? Japan.
Sheesh. It sucks there aren't as many hardcore console games coming out of Japan, but christ people, they just went to where the money is these days--cheap to develop titles with nice mark ups.
Japan. losing its touch. lol. why? because x,y,z from teh west!
Nevermind that Japan is all portable and Wii. Wait...what's huge worldwide? wii! who's dominating portable gaming worldwide? Japan.
Sheesh. It sucks there aren't as many hardcore console games coming out of Japan, but christ people, they just went to where the money is these days--cheap to develop titles with nice mark ups.
KingJ2002
Member
ill agree that because they are so conservative and dont support middleware they tend to play second fiddle to other indie US studios... but japan makes up for their technical shortcomings with incredible art direction and animation.
i cant see any US studios making a King Of Fighters XII, BlazBlue, No More Heroes or a Blue Dragon.
as long as the japanese dont lose their visual creativity... they'll be fine and still be considered the best at what they do.
i cant see any US studios making a King Of Fighters XII, BlazBlue, No More Heroes or a Blue Dragon.
as long as the japanese dont lose their visual creativity... they'll be fine and still be considered the best at what they do.
JasonUresti
Member
No. Baldur's Gate, Darklands, Fallout, Tie Fighter, Half Life, Duke Nukem, Doom, Magic Carpet, Monkey Island, Full Throttle, Daggerfall, Ultimas, The Sims, Ultimate Underworld, Falcon, Wing Commander, Myth, Thief, System Shock, Little Big Adventure, countless others. In truth, the number of top shelf games, in a huge variety of genres, offered on PC over the years is quite staggering. Western developers were not behind or inferior in years past, they never had to catch up, they were always there, offering a wider spectrum of game experiences, and classic game design. To dismiss all that, merely because they were on PC, is foolish.
I loved PC gaming.
I do think some of the experience (read A LOT) has been lost in its transition to console.
Some is good, some is bad.
The streamlining and smarter UI is great, but the loss of depth and complexity is unfortunate. The "rush" to put out games that will market and sell well is also unfortunate (WWII stuff, sports stuff).
I used to be west = PC, east = console, but I've come to appreciate games like COD4 and Bioshock on console. Now I have a pretty mixed library.
I do think some of the experience (read A LOT) has been lost in its transition to console.
Some is good, some is bad.
The streamlining and smarter UI is great, but the loss of depth and complexity is unfortunate. The "rush" to put out games that will market and sell well is also unfortunate (WWII stuff, sports stuff).
I used to be west = PC, east = console, but I've come to appreciate games like COD4 and Bioshock on console. Now I have a pretty mixed library.
A Black Falcon
Member
HK-47 said:
Used to be wider. Now narrower.
proposition
Banned
What a crock. There are Western games with equally strong an art style.KingJ2002 said:
Oh but sorry they're not anime, and therefore don't have a strong art style, my bad.
NintendosBooger
Member
A Black Falcon said:Of course they haven't come even remotely close to matching BGII, but on the other hand, apart from Torment and BG1, nothing Western has matched BGII either, so I don't know if that's a fair comparison...
Seriously though, it's just because of game design styles. Japanese RPG developers don't try to make games anywhere near as deep, complex, and believable as a Baldur's Gate II. Their priorities are different. Making things that fit with the genre stereotypes that their fanbase desires, for instance.
Western developers have now abandoned things like BGII too, of course, in favor of simplistic console stuff. I'm not going to trust Dragon Age one bit without seeing how it turns out.
I'm trusting Dragon Age already. It's the main reason I'll be upgrading virtually every aspect of my PC. A setting inspired by George R.R. Martin and the great Frank Frazetta? Full character customization? "Spiritual successor" to the current king of RPGs (i.e., BG2)?
Dude, what is there to be concerned about? At the very least this game will meet expectations, but I anticipate D.A. will exceed them!
Oh, to the guy who said Venus & Braves trumps Baldur's Gate II in "every category except maybe graphics"....:lol
proposition
Banned
What there is to be concerned about is that every Bioware game since NWN has been kind of rubbish compared to what they used to put out.NintendosBooger said:
NintendosBooger
Member
proposition said:
I'll admit that, as a fan of BioWare, I've not been as mesmerized by some of their latest PC offerings, but that's not to say that they're not any good. But I think D.A. will bring them back to their A game, as opposed to the B game that every other RPG maker can only hope to achieve.
This is more of a problem of the average Japanese consumer more towards the handheld side of gaming than the console/PC side. There is no lack of innovation on the handheld side of things or even the Wii, but damn the Japanese are not cranking out substantially on the higher end consoles.
The Japanese Devs peaked somewhere between the PS1/PS2 era. As soon as the DS came into play there was a sharp decline in general innovation and quality from the devs, with few exceptions of course.
The FFs, MGSs, DMCs, Tekkens, SCs, VFs, ICOs don't come regularly enough and when they do sometimes they fail to make a significant splash because of rehash. The fighter genre is being grounded to the dust because of this and the JRPG genre is in need of a serious injection as well.
The Japanese Devs peaked somewhere between the PS1/PS2 era. As soon as the DS came into play there was a sharp decline in general innovation and quality from the devs, with few exceptions of course.
The FFs, MGSs, DMCs, Tekkens, SCs, VFs, ICOs don't come regularly enough and when they do sometimes they fail to make a significant splash because of rehash. The fighter genre is being grounded to the dust because of this and the JRPG genre is in need of a serious injection as well.
Digital-Hero
Member
Tideas said:
Not me, I'd say GTA4 will still hold strong against the cinematic heavy, linear adventure that is Metal Gear.