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Jimquisition: Big Empty Sandboxes (Jan. 2, 2017)

Open world games don't need to be filled with content. As long as the content is actually good and not a copy/paste a few hundred times over.

Reward exploration - explore large, empty areas to discover exciting content instead.

I'm surprised Wind Water wasn't mentioned.

He just...got done...criticizing this...in...the video...

The problem with this is that too many players seem to hate the simple act of traversal, or don't consider exploration in and of itself to be "gameplay." They want to skip right to the part where they kill things as quickly as possible.

Personally, I would prefer to have more sparse, less dense open worlds where I can take in the scenery when moving from place to place and get a proper sense of scale. That old blog from Warhorse Studios talking about "potato land" illustrates the dilemma -- you want an open-world to be big enough to feel "big" but not so big that players spend too much time moving from place to place. It'd be nice if someone actually did a focus test or other kind of study to see what actually is the "proper" travel time between notable locations and events for most players. That travel time though isn't a factor that stands on its own, it's sort of a quotient of world size and the speed of whatever transportation the player is using. A world balanced for horseback riding is going to have more empty space than one balanced for on-foot travel. One reason these open-world games so often get bogged down in bloat is because developers seem to think something "interesting" needs to occur every hundred yards or something.

The guys at Warhorse and maybe even CDRP I think figured out that Red Dead seems to have gotten the proper "travel time" down. I didn't hear anybody complain about Red Dead being "empty," yet you spend a lot of time riding a horse across the landscape. Major locations are close enough so you can move between them quickly enough on horseback, but far enough away to where one is usually never visible from another. Witcher 3 kinda hits the same dynamic with all the villages -- there's just enough space between them for a feeling of plausibility.

Witcher 3's world also works though because the landscape is formatted in a sensible way that gives the feeling of a shifting landscape from place to place. The world never feels samey. When approaching the main city you see the bridge as a transition point, you see the forest and farmland on the outskirts of the city as well as the suburb-like neighborhoods. Each part of that world seems like it might have have a "function."



The problem with MGSV's world as a stealth sandbox is that it rarely makes use of all that space. There are a few missions that take place over a very wide area encompassing multiple main enemy bases, but most just take place in one.

This is where the OW fetishization gets me (well, one of the ways; I'll get to the other shortly). Big worlds are good right? But take away those generous fastravel options and quest markers and HOOBOY the crying starts. It's an art asset smorgasbord off the beeline to the next objective that certain folks can't wait to skip over, but MUST have or else.

The other one is how this is a sign of AAA now. It used to be bespoke, filmic single player modes but now only Naughty Dog can get away with that from being outstanding at that. Gotta justify $60 preorders in an era of $15 Black Friday deals on non-bombas for those who can, I guess...
 
The problem with open world games is their sheer size. I take it as an indication that some kind of gameplay compromise has taken place when the world is massive, so for me it's less about fatigue and more an inherent issue with the genre itself.

Open world or not, I prefer condensed, hand-crafted games with no filler or repetitive gameplay elements. You'll find me playing games ranging from The Witness to Shovel Knight since they all have the afformentioned qualities in common. I'm excited to play BotW because of the 100+ puzzle shrines and I think it'll be a blast experimenting with the game's impressive physics engine, although I'm not looking forward to traversing fields of nothing, climbing vertical walls and collecting random crap on the way to the fun parts.
 
Jim makes some good points...and some not so good ones. His assumption that an open world game needs a good story structure is incorrect. There are plenty of games that make due on gameplay alone with only a hint of a story. By criticizing the lack of traditional story elements, Jim is condemning the entire genre of open world sandbox games that are just fun to play.

Additionally, open world and linear games have different strengths and weaknesses. Jim focused in on the inherent story weaknesses of the open world genre by saying that linear games do them better, but that isn't the point. Open world games should be evaluated on open world criteria. You don't criticize 2D fighters for not having the same depth of strategy as RTSs. Jim wants open world games to be just multiple optional linear games contained within pretty 3D environment game selectors. His criticism is generally correct. The problem is he is too limited in seeing the potential of what the genre could be by only seeing tham as linear games with much larger gameplay areas.
 
I don't get the Mirror's Edge complaints.

People who demanded their linear missions got them, and those who wanted to free roam the parkour for practice, challenges or *gasp* fun, got that too. I don't see the problem.

But then I've never understood the backtracking or being-forced-to-travel complaints in games centered around traversal. The point in Mirror's Edge is to run and jump and keep your momentum going, and Forza Horizon is about driving and racing. It should come as no surprise that both games ask you to do plenty of both, but I've read heaps of complaints about having to navigate through the open world in Mirror's Edge and having to drive to the next event hub in the Horizon games. Makes zero sense to me.

For what its worth I enjoyed the open world in Mirror's Edge Catalyst, but more of as an extra for simple fun and exploration and practice and leaderboards, since the core game doesn't really make it essential.
Like with MGSV there's little reason for the open world as it's quite empty and makes the trip between objectives very tedious, along with some oddities like people standing in place on rooftops waiting for you to drop something off and then never moving. I love the gameplay loop of ME but in the tightly designed missions more so than the open world.
 
I'm willing to give Witcher 3 a pass for a lot of its design problems regarding its open world, as I feel like a major aim for that game is to give testament to the world of the books, which I think it executes superbly.
 
Watch this video and realized he just repeated David Jaffe's rant from damn near 8 years ago. Linear games are better than open world games because the story.
 
Forgot /s ?

Open world does not equal procedurally generated terrain. Some of them are cleverly crafted with awesome level design.

Xenoblade chronicles & X
Crackdown
Dying light
Fallout 3 & New vegas
Stalker
Red dead redemption
GTA

Does not have to be Ubi's open world recipe.
It's not the level design of Ubisoft open world that people complain about. Because in terms of level design, architecture and attention to detail at a macro and micro scale Ubisoft open world are only matched or surpassed by Rockworld open world games.

It's the quest design of Ubisoft games that people complain about and that has now changed with Watch Dogs 2. But still, I can't see how one can find that to be bad and yet don't mind the open world in a game like Crackdown 2 or Xenoblade X where there is basically fuck all in terms of quest design.
 
Wind Waker for me is very much an exception to my open world misgivings, because action/adventure games set on an ocean are just not very common. Wind Waker definitely could have stood to have more rewarding exploration, but at the time it was cool and neat to explore that kind of setting in the way that you did.
 
I see the MGSV mentions in this thread and I think some people really missed the boat with that game's level design, but it isn't necessarily their fault. The open barren world serves purpose in the context of the missions, but disappoints on its own without that context. The game allows you to play it how you want and that really allows some to play it in the least enjoyable way possible by staying in the contextless open world and not notice the effort put into the level design of the mission areas. MGSV allows you to skip the fun and embrace the tedium basically.

The bigger bases, while many are smaller or less dense than Camp Omega, are arguably just as well designed. They have tons of secret paths, hidden tunnels, and lots of more subtle paths made for the player. In the Mission 5 resupply base where you grab the bionic arm maker for example, there's a stupid amount of secret paths to find to each objective. Your first obvious way is the giant gate up the winding road, but if you look around you can climb the left or mountains at various point to get to the cliffs avoiding that. From there you can drop in to the underground area avoiding the patrol heavy stairs. There is a path that goes around the back of the barracks that allows you to get around an to those houses easily for any objectives there easily. And all these paths are highlighted with natural cues. Like the paths usually have grass leading right to them, rather than having to have signpost them with markers like most games. Unfortunately I think a lot of people miss the care put into these levels because they blow through quickly with a tranq gun or sniper and frankly don't need to. That's an issue with MGSV, in giving so much freedom it rarely pushes players to really engage with these levels. I'm fine with it but for a lot of players (watch the avg stream of the game) just do the same thing every mission, they find one path and that's always the path. They don't need to plan because they can reflex out of it or just run around like a madman ignoring all but the objective. They can skip the fun of planning, and sneaking around a base using the level design to the point where they never have to use a weapon. But just because they don't see that design doesn't mean it isn't there.

Like was mentioned earlier, the game can actually played like a series of Ground Zeroes maps, but it gives you the option not to. You can absolutely just play each mission like a mini ground zeroes. you helicopter in or nearby, start the mission, complete it, and either helicopter out or leave on foot and then use the menu to return to base. That's how I did every mission except for the ones during the outbreak on mother base where each mission was short and grouped very close by while the game encouraged a sense of urgency because all your dudes were dying. But you can skip the fun of just playing these fleshed out missions consecutively by running around a much emptier non-mission map trying to find the next mission and creating a lot of tedium between each. So then there's the complaint if that's how you play it, only dropping in and out of missions, isn't the open world wasted? And that's definitely not true. Each country has missions where the size is used for some amazing missions that wouldn't be possible in a game space the size of GZ.

Back up and back down, the mission where you have to destroy or capture as many Soviet vehicles as possible is a great example of the game utilizing the size of its world. You get this giant area, you can start on any end of, and it's up to you to plan how you ambush these vehicles, or if you want to just ride at them like a madman on your horse with an RPG while 80s music plays (like I did my first time). Here too, the game allows you to skip the fun of the level they designed. You can destroy one vehicle and complete the mission, you don't have to plan, you don't have to engage. The real beauty of the mission and level design appears when you start planning for how you're going to take out every vehicle and/or added objectives and that's something that really relies on great level design.

Maybe first you use D-Horse and you plan a route after seeing how the waves come in destroying them as you go, and you realize the best paths of the main road like going in the river to bypass the bases of enemies. While you do maybe you even find POWs, the game puts these guys in a lot of the shortcuts that will save you time. Like if you dropped into the southwest entrance there's a search team that goes right through the fast shortcut to the northeast searching for a missing POW. When you get to the extra set of tanks there are POWs in the sands you would take to get to the tank and avoid the base and outposts it patrols along. The level is filled with thought put into it like that. As you replay you may notice certain parts of the map naturally lend themselves to ambush points. With enough paying attention you learn that using some decoys and perching in those spots will allow you to take out everything. You may stumble into that on an early playthrough if you plan correctly. Trying to get all the mission objectives in one run is really fun by the way, especially if you do it early on before you get all the OP items.

Here's a video showcasing some of these paths and attention to detail in the level design through the level (unfortunately with end game equipment but its possible without that):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSyDke7KoZs

Backup Backdown isn't even the best example of a level that fully uses the large play area in MGSV. Arguably that's Mission 16, Traitors Caravan, which is just capturing a truck in Africa. Despite such a simple main objective this is probably the absolute highlight of MGSV's mission design, and it utilizes the huge space of the map for that mission. I don't feel like going blow by blow on it again at the moment but will if someone wants to argue it. But it again shows off the versatility of the design for these missions and levels. Same with Proxy War, Code Taker, Where the Bees Sleep, and Hellbound. You'll notice a lot of these levels have a timer either overtly or on a hidden timer. This would be frustrating in a new area with no context, but because you've usually been to some of these bases and terrain before it allows the player to be able to look at the big picture while having some idea of where to go and how to get there even if soldier patrols are different.

Oh and the the barren world should also get recognition with the new and more complicated alert system it is deeply tied to. By having a big empty area devoid of soldiers around the bases and main roads it allows the player to get out regroup or use the cigar to cool things down. This allows soldiers in the bases to stay alert for huge periods of time, unlike GZ where they forget they have a hostile breaking into their base in like 3 minutes, while still seeming fair to all players. If there were random soldiers and vehicles everywhere, trying to avoid and stay hidden could be extremely frustrating especially with later soldiers who can see much farther.

I also feel like if Ground Zeroes had a lot more development time than any one place in MGSV and also that players got to play it a lot more. If GZ had taken place somewhere like the Mfinda Oilfield, with six missions on it like Camp Omega and equivalent play time on it people would have gotten to know and appreciate the level design there a lot more and regarded it in a better light. This leads to another issue with context and how it colors perception. I think another reason is GZ praised over TPP areas is that it features context the player is more interested in. The mission features characters the player knows, and has cutscenes featuring them throughout. Whereas TPP missions, despite being well designed featured generic nobodies by comparison and very little in the way of cutscenes in mission. If the Mfinda oilbase was the prologue area mission space featuring known MGS characters and more GZ style cutscenes and then the GZ mission space was in TPP later on, along a cliff in Africa or something, with no cutscenes and only featured nameless POWs in place of Chico and Paz I think a lot of players would hold in similar regard to the rest of the game.

So anyway, it is absolutely on MGSV that it doesn't give enough incentives to play in a way that's fun and fully utilizes the level design, that it gives arguable poorer context for each mission to engage player interest, and didn't clarify or get rid of potential confusion about the best way to get to and from missions, but to say that the level design sucks, or isn't well crafted is just not true.

Quoting for new page since this stupid amount of words ended up in the deadzone of post 300.
 
This is a Jimquisition that I really like because I have a preference for linear games and would rather people not dismiss linearity as something with no value.
 
Wind Waker for me is very much an exception to my open world misgivings, because action/adventure games set on an ocean are just not very common. Wind Waker definitely could have stood to have more rewarding exploration, but at the time it was cool and neat to explore that kind of setting in the way that you did.
Yea the open world in WW was genuinely engrossing to traverse. I barely did any side stuff I just loved sailing due to that aesthetic. I'm thinking Horizon might be the same way because holy shit that unique aesthetic.
 
MGSV was probably the worst offender for big massive open worlds with jack shit worth doing in it. I'd have taken a few bases of Camp Omega's quality instead of the superfluous shit we got. Hell it's like Kojima was more influenced by Ubisoft than good open world devs like rockstar or CDPR.

I like that it's so empty I don't even want/have to bother exploring it. Seems like side ops and missions show you all the interesting parts anyway. I'd say it's certainly more elegant than something like Far Cry 4. It's sparse, but I think it works for that particular game.

Quoting for new page since this stupid amount of words ended up in the deadzone of post 300.
Wait, there are people that DON'T immediately go back to Motherbase after every mission? I thought you had to to finish the mission, and regardless it seems stupid not to. Wandering around Afghanistan looking for stuff to do sounds miserable.
 
This is a Jimquisition that I really like because I have a preference for linear games and would rather people not dismiss linearity as something with no value.

Yeah i feel like "linear" became a bad word so people were feeling forced to make games open world, it for old quick.
 
Like with MGSV there's little reason for the open world as it's quite empty and makes the trip between objectives very tedious, along with some oddities like people standing in place on rooftops waiting for you to drop something off and then never moving. I love the gameplay loop of ME but in the tightly designed missions more so than the open world.
MGSV doesn't have great traversal - I mean you can ride a horse or a jeep or the like to cover some distance but that doesn't compare to the full tilt acrobatic marathoning that you do in Mirror's Edge for the simple joy you get in doing parkour at speed, uninterrupted.

I guess I just never found the movement in Mirror's Edge to be tedious, whether it was applied to the linear missions or to the open world. All I need is interesting geometry to run and clamber and jump around on to have my fun, but there were also puzzle elements to working your way up to billboards and find your way into new areas. I loved it. Even finding some audio logs was worth it, especially for some of the easter eggs (like the Bad Company 2 ones)

What I didn't need was to collect every last console chip from each terminal - but that was just as easy to completely ignore.
 
Except it is an open world game, the developers just did a piss poor job at making a fully realized open world that goes in line with the narrative themes because it's empty AF despite the narrative constantly telling you that it isn't and that there's supposed to be a huge conflict going on between factions. When a trailer goes "MGS GOES OPEN WORLD." And the developers constantly say "it's open world," you can't just say, "it's not really an open world game" as an excuse for it failing to justify it.

Here's some quotes from the developers saying what they intended it to be:

https://www.vg247.com/2014/06/12/mgs-5-the-phantom-pain-is-open-world-not-a-sandbox/

http://www.siliconera.com/2013/10/28/kojima-just-metal-gear-solid-v-open-world-game/

He talks about the misunderstandings the word open world brings with it and clarified he meant it in regards to missions rather than a simulation of the world. It seems what we consider open world is how he describes a sandbox, when really I'd say for the west it is the other way around.

I agree having confrontations between factions in the open world or civilians would be great for a convincing open world simulation, but clearly that was outside of their design scope for this one. They wanted to focus on sneaking missions as opposed to what MGS4 did. The talk of war and fighting is meant to give context for why everyone has guns and their are military operations going on, and really only seem out of place when traveling the world outside of missions. I think in regards to what he says they are aiming for, freedom with how to approach missions, that they were very successful.
 
GTA and RDR manage to do it very well, Witcher 3 also was pretty nice.

I hope Zelda: BotW won't follow the path of MGS V and FFXV. Good open world games are very good but, it's hard and very time consuming to make them.

Rockstar uses dev cycles of 5 years and Witcher 3 probably took around that time also.

But yeah so far the games i played where i was the most excited for failed in the open world apartment.

It's like a weird trend that keeps repeating. I rather have very good semi open linear games then open world, but if it is done really well like Rockstar games for example then it is certainly worth it.
 
Why is it yes? With that logic, you can include anything in any game regardless, because even if some players never use something, there's the option too.

It's a YES for me because nobody play open world games the same way.

Some people like to explore at their own pace , other don't.
Providing tools to move around is necessary for open world game so that the player can navigate and enjoy the game the way he wants

i'm not saying that the player could fast travel anywhere. it can be limited too.
But some sort of option is the conclusion i've reached after so many years.

Like how some players were able to enjoy dragon dogma better when they could choose and plant fast travel points in Dark arisen

Like how Many players can explore better in no man sky now that teleporting from a station to your home base is possible

Adding the option of fast travel ( even limited ) can help some games
 
MGSV doesn't have great traversal - I mean you can ride a horse or a jeep or the like to cover some distance but that doesn't compare to the full tilt acrobatic marathoning that you do in Mirror's Edge for the simple joy you get in doing parkour at speed, uninterrupted.

I guess I just never found the movement in Mirror's Edge to be tedious, whether it was applied to the linear missions or to the open world. All I need is interesting geometry to run and clamber and jump around on to have my fun, but there were also puzzle elements to working your way up to billboards and find your way into new areas. I loved it. Even finding some audio logs was worth it, especially for some of the easter eggs (like the Bad Company 2 ones)

What I didn't need was to collect every last console chip from each terminal - but that was just as easy to completely ignore.
Again, love the gameplay loop, just wasn't a big fan of how they designed the world itself. The metroidvania style progression was nice but getting between objectives became a bit of a chore by the end.

Here's some quotes from the developers saying what they intended it to be:

https://www.vg247.com/2014/06/12/mgs-5-the-phantom-pain-is-open-world-not-a-sandbox/

http://www.siliconera.com/2013/10/28/kojima-just-metal-gear-solid-v-open-world-game/

He talks about the misunderstandings the word open world brings with it and clarified he meant it in regards to missions rather than a simulation of the world. It seems what we consider open world is how he describes a sandbox, when really I'd say for the west it is the other way around.

I agree having confrontations between factions in the open world or civilians would be great for a convincing open world simulation, but clearly that was outside of their design scope for this one. They wanted to focus on sneaking missions as opposed to what MGS4 did. The talk of war and fighting is meant to give context for why everyone has guns and their are military operations going on, and really only seem out of place when traveling the world outside of missions. I think in regards to what he says they are aiming for, freedom with how to approach missions, that they were very successful.
I'm aware of what he meant when he said open world in that it wouldn't be like GTA, but he didn't make it very fulfilling to actually explore between objectives. The freedom we have with the mechanics and inside bases are great, it's the world itself that feels unnecessary and superfluous, compared to how tightly designed GZ where the design really IS you go in with an objective, complete it how you want, and get out, with very little time wasting in between.
 
MGSV doesn't have great traversal - I mean you can ride a horse or a jeep or the like to cover some distance but that doesn't compare to the full tilt acrobatic marathoning that you do in Mirror's Edge for the simple joy you get in doing parkour at speed, uninterrupted.

I guess I just never found the movement in Mirror's Edge to be tedious, whether it was applied to the linear missions or to the open world. All I need is interesting geometry to run and clamber and jump around on to have my fun, but there were also puzzle elements to working your way up to billboards and find your way into new areas. I loved it. Even finding some audio logs was worth it, especially for some of the easter eggs (like the Bad Company 2 ones)

What I didn't need was to collect every last console chip from each terminal - but that was just as easy to completely ignore.
Totally. Mirror's Edge Catalyst's open world is what makes it one of the "purest" platformers, a game built around the sheer joy of free running.
It still has plenty linear platforming puzzle challenges for people who can't enjoy the gameplay for the sake of it, but the open world's existence (and yes, even its "emptiness") enriches the themes of the game in ways no linear level ever could. Faith and all the other terrible characters can talk all they want about what running means to them, but you'll never feel it without an open space where you're free to go wherever you want, however you want.
The open world is so calm, it creates very interesting contrast with all the tense action and complex platforming sections of the story missions. There's something meditative about it that feels very refreshing compared to all the other open world games which try to distract you with audiovisual/minimap noise.
 
Best Jimquisition video in a long time sums up exactly how I feel when a developer says "open world experience." More like eat sleep game repeat.
 
Yea the open world in WW was genuinely engrossing to traverse. I barely did any side stuff I just loved sailing due to that aesthetic. I'm thinking Horizon might be the same way because holy shit that unique aesthetic.

I would kill for a spiritual sequel to Wind Waker using its engine in a new IP. No combat, pure exploration with a ton of non-random locales.

Or I wouldn't kill, whichever makes it happen.
 
I'm surprised this has been brought up now. This has been going on in gaming well since the previous generation.

Quantity (even if it's repeating) has replaced quality.

There is a time and place for large map open world experiences (i.e. Grand Theft Auto), but the vast majority of games do not need this. Even with an "immersion" argument, I find this falls flat. The Dark Souls series is hardly open world (even the first title) yet is far more immersive and "alive" than most other games in the market.

I'm STILL pissed about how Metal Gear Solid V ended up, especially with how promising Ground Zeros was.
 
I still dont get the hat for mgs v's world. Youre in a war zone, so the locals would have fled plus you have checkpoints and out posts. In terms of travel, you can go by foot (which i did from one end of both maps to the other) car, d-horse or d-dog and whilst doing it you can listen to tapes and fulton anything not nailed down. Plus with a game like that i think having "empty spaces" helps with the pacing and game difficulty
 
I'm excited to play BotW because of the 100+ puzzle shrines and I think it'll be a blast experimenting with the game's impressive physics engine, although I'm not looking forward to traversing fields of nothing, climbing vertical walls and collecting random crap on the way to the fun parts.

This.

I think open world games came about because people who first pioneered the genre are terrible game designers. They had no idea how to design an interesting level, or expand on their limited game ideas. So many open world games contains things to do, but these things run out of steam within 10 minutes. They're half baked game ideas that can't work by themselves, so they're thrown in to an open world game to have a whole bunch of these half bakes ideas for people to choose from. That's why you have games with terrible controls, combat, and among other things.
 
At people claiming GTA V is empy lmao

That world created is the biggest draw of the game. It's awesome because it's not empty and does feel alive. If you mean tons of side quests, then yeah, it's not Witcher 3 or Skyrim.
 
That guys kinda funny. I completely agree and have felt similarly for a while now. I'd take quality over quantity any day.

Also, as an aside, was Link to the Past considered "open world?"
 
I like that it's so empty I don't even want/have to bother exploring it. Seems like side ops and missions show you all the interesting parts anyway. I'd say it's certainly more elegant than something like Far Cry 4. It's sparse, but I think it works for that particular game.

yeah pretty much. the atmosphere in MGSV is rich, especially in Afganistahn. this is a desolate warzone and the immersion is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

it's a totally different problem than, say, a Far Cry, where the open world ends up meaning one base is pretty much the same as all the others. in MGSV every single base is unique, every single side op is unique, right down to the tiny roadside outposts. enemy placement and mission goals are attuned to match the specific geography and as a result every mission feels unique. MGSV is a demonstration of open world design done right.
 
And on the flip side (also in this very thread) you see people thinking open world is automatically worse. Both blanket sentiments are completely false.

I don't think they're innately worse, but I've never liked open world games. They tend to feel aimless and I never feel like I'm doing it right.

Then you get open world racers. Want to rety a race? Ok. Turn around and drive back to the race start! Way to slow the action down to a crawl. Yet somehow open world racers are VITAL and racing games that just feed you races are perceived as being at a disadvantage.
 
i was kind of confused by why he kept showing Skyrim footage, i would consider that an example of open world laziness gone wrong. you can go into a dungeon right when you start the game and go into a dungeon 150 hours later and both dungeons will have the exact same enemies and nearly identical layouts.
 
Open world only works when there's plenty to do after the end game. It works for RPGs and MMOs but not so much for action and shooters.

Another pet peeve are those sandbox games that make everything a RareWare inspired collectathon, Sunset Overdrive I'm looking at you. Great game, but not going to collect at that stuff for an achievement.
 
Overall, I agree with what Jim said. I'm juggling Watch Dogs 2, Skyrim and FFXV at the same time right now and I'd say the only game without a really shallow open world is Skyrim. FFXV has a really nice mass and beautiful landscapes and that's definitely what it's going for. FFXV is a road trip game. Watch Dogs 2 is a lot of fun but it's not as tight as I'd like it to be and I think it suffers from being open world.

The best games with open worlds off the top of my head (and I know some gaffers are gonna get tired of hearing about this series) is the Yakuza series. Those games have very small open worlds, but they are dense as fuck and almost every other building has something meaningful for you to do. For example, in most open world games, going to a bar wouldn't do much. In Yakuza, you can go to Bantam (a bar in Kamurocho) pick a drink, get a VERY detailed description of a drink that actually exists in the real world, play an in-depth mini game of darts, and then your encounter rate increases because you're drunk. Then right next door, you can go to the Club Sega and play the UFO Catcher and Virtua Fighter 2. Those games are stupid impressive with how much shit you can do.

I can't wait for games to stop bragging about how big their open world is because it stopped being impressive 5 years ago.

Also Happy Birthday, Jim.

I'm going to bed now.
 
I absolutely loved the world of witcher 3. the combat was the worst part of the game for me (mainly because I base all games with that melee sword combat against Dark Souls)

Usually, most RPG sidequests are lame and boring but almost all of them in witcher (while maybe having dull combat/interactions) came with often very good stories attached to these nameless/faceless NPC's. There were some flat out amazing side quests that often were attached to a boring as hell detective vision quest.

I just picked up the division again (got it free with my graphics card way back at release date) and it's surprisingly fun to play. I didn't really enjoy the beta due to some gameplay tweaks not being done yet but it feels pretty good now aside from the early game yellow "rare/elite?" enemy AI thugs requiring like 5 magazines from a machine gun to take down when it seems like they can 3 shot you with an SMG.


IMO, the worst offender in terms of open world games that has bored me to tears is Shadow of the Colossus. Sorry but even after fightning 3 bosses, I found absolutely nothing to compel me to play any more and what I did play felt like a waste of time. I just kept on trying to push on waiting for this supposed masterpiece to show up but I guess it just didn't click for me.
 
So apart from the GTA 5 and Witcher 3 what other recent games have convincing, organic open worlds that truly feel alive?
 
I'm aware of what he meant when he said open world in that it wouldn't be like GTA, but he didn't make it very fulfilling to actually explore between objectives. The freedom we have with the mechanics and inside bases are great, it's the world itself that feels unnecessary and superfluous, compared to how tightly designed GZ where the design really IS you go in with an objective, complete it how you want, and get out, with very little time wasting in between.

Well the out of mission world is lacking context, and almost seems like an extra or practice area considering the lack of life compared to the missions or areas with side ops in effect, which are clearly the meat of the game. However, the game can be played in a way that almost completely avoids that tedium and operates as Ground Zeroes did.

Do you think if the game completely removed the freeroam and only allowed the missions to be selected from a menu, GZ style, that it would be addition by subtraction and remove your issues with game world? There's an argument to be made that an edited down MGSV would be an improvement for some.
 
The problem with open world games is that they all too often either phone in whatever pieces of the game aren't directly tied to the main story (DA:I, most Ubisoft games) or try to put effort into the whole package and nearly choke themselves to death on their own scope (MGSV, FFXV.)

I feel like open world/sandbox games only really work when that aspect is clearly the centerpiece of the game and whatever linear main story is there only exists as a way to give you direction within that sandbox, such as GTA and the Elder Scrolls.The big issues come when you take your game that doesn't *need* to be open world to do what it's trying to do and open world it anyway because that's what the kids love these days- that's basically what happened to most of the bad examples I cited above.
 
So apart from the GTA 5 and Witcher 3 what other recent games have convincing, organic open worlds that truly feel alive?
One I'd put up as one of the best open worlds in terms of gameplay is Dying Light. You've got parkour to help you navigate the rooftops as survivors do, since the dead mass up on the streets below. The world is littered with rigged traps you can set off and UV lights you can activate - which become useful when the real danger comes out at night. And that night time might be the scariest I've seen in a game. The world is so broken down and without electricity that its almost pitch, the enemies are far more animated and powerful and flip the tables to hunt the players making running at night a long and dangerous prospect. It makes sense to free roam around the world and explore as you can find materials (medicine, tools, weapons, ammo, etc) and survivors who may need your help. You've also got roaming gangs in some areas and periodic supply drops that are flown in that you'll need to race to before those rival gangs reach them, at least if you want to avoid fighting them.

Its got one of my favorite qualities to an open world game - the majority of the world is dangerous (as opposed to a lot of empty space like MGS V or just civilians doing their thing in GTA V) - which means it isn't just a wonderfully animated backdrop with scattered mission icons here and there. Its 100% gameplay opportunities for combat, salvage and parkour, scattered with mission icons :)

But it all comes together so well. The only real bummer is the focus on the game's less-than-mediocre gunplay in the last act.

One other one I'd throw into the mix is Shadow of Mordor. Not only does the open world allow you to freely attack the game and its dark chain of command however you like, but its filled with dynamic events that are in constant interplay. Maybe an Orc stumbles into a fire and provides an opening for some Human prisoners to make for an escape and leading all the Orcs into the area in chase. Or maybe a pack of Caragor or a giant Graug are hunting in your area, which will cause all kinds of mayhem to Orcs and Human prisoners alike. Sometimes this will draw in Uruk captains and their guard, leading to emergent battles you can take advantage of, or cause the captain to flee where you can go after without dealing with their retinue, or maybe multiple captains show up with their own rivalries to resolve, or hell, maybe those monsters end up doing your work for you and taking the captains out themselves. There's a lot that can happen in SoM and plenty of fun opportunities to exploit because of them.

And one more shout out goes to Sunset Overdrive. With the way you can super-jump, zip-line and wall-run everywhere its just a fucking joy to roam around, and the combat makes full use of that movement. Just a great open world to run around and blow shit up in.
 
One other one I'd throw into the mix is Shadow of Mordor. Not only does the open world allow you to freely attack the game and its dark chain of command however you like, but its filled with dynamic events that are in constant interplay.

SOM was fun for a couple of hours until I realized the extremely overly-aggressive orc spawning mechanic completely broke the game.

I had to kill a captain or whatever he was and he always traveled with a posse. He patrolled around an orc hideout/camp like a ruined fort or something so I figured it would be easiest to kill the orcs in the hideout and then the posse to take the captain 1v1.

He was immune to drop attacks, direct attacks and back attacks. You pretty much had to do that dodge up over the shield to hit him.

So as my plan was executed without a hitch, I noticed a slow trickle of orcs from the fort I had cleared. Then more came, and more, and more and they never stopped. I ran up a wall and then literally saw them just spawning out of thin air running straight at the fight. It made the fight impossible for me because with these guys spawning into the fight, I never had a window of time open to try and bait the captain to attack and give me time to do that one and only specific counter attack he was vulnerable to.

I quit the game, uninstalled it and have not had one bit of desire to go back.

On a more subjective reason I don't care for it, the game mostly was taking place in a giant mud pit. I didn't find it a particularly attractive game at all.
 
SOM was fun for a couple of hours until I realized the extremely overly-aggressive orc spawning mechanic completely broke the game.

I had to kill a captain or whatever he was and he always traveled with a posse. He patrolled around an orc hideout/camp like a ruined fort or something so I figured it would be easiest to kill the orcs in the hideout and then the posse to take the captain 1v1.
As far as I know that aggressive spawning only happens in specially marked fortress locations, and even then only once the alarm has been raised. The game does mark any Orc that's running to set the alarm so you can take them out first. And once a fortress is alerted it stays that way for a while.

There's actually a lot more to the game than you can see in the first several hours. And there are aspects of the Nemesis System that only become available in the final act, like branding enemies to create your own Orc army, and branded captains and Warchiefs that allow you to start power struggles directly, or to position your own choice of captain as bodyguards to enemy Warchiefs in order to properly betray them when the moment is right. Its good stuff. Just finished it two weeks ago.
 
At people claiming GTA V is empy lmao

That world created is the biggest draw of the game. It's awesome because it's not empty and does feel alive. If you mean tons of side quests, then yeah, it's not Witcher 3 or Skyrim.

Yeah, Los Santos is just simply fun to move around in and gorgeous enough to make sightseeing a thing to do in the world itself. I imagine RDR2 & Horizon being similarly compelling visually.

For living worlds nothing beats Unity IMO. The sheer number of NPCs & the way they cluster & go about their days is fantastic.
 
One I'd put up as one of the best open worlds in terms of gameplay is Dying Light. You've got parkour to help you navigate the rooftops as survivors do, since the dead mass up on the streets below.
...
And one more shout out goes to Sunset Overdrive. With the way you can super-jump, zip-line and wall-run everywhere its just a fucking joy to roam around, and the combat makes full use of that movement. Just a great open world to run around and blow shit up in.

Great post, and it highlights why open world games can have some advantages over linear games even though a traditional story might be harder to pull off. First, when the game has fun traversal mechanics, an open world is needed to show it off. Second, emergent gameplay also needs the space of an open world to work. These features allow an open word game to turn its gameplay into enjoyable repeatable content.

Open worlds don't have to have these attributes to be successful. However if they don't, they'll have to brute force fill out the game the old fashion way, with a lot of good custom created content. Trying to cheat with independent filler copy-paste content just doesn't work.

The future of open world games will belong to those devs who can create gameplay features that can work on the largest scales. Filler content is so distasteful because it is so isolated. The outcome of one instance has little to no impact on the larger world which highlights its arbitrariness. What is needed is to make the player feel connected to the world. The player's actions should ripple out to change the world. The world should take note and actively push back without needing the player to trigger it. A Shadow of Mordor like Nemesis system is needed that not only works at the combat level, but at a strategic level too.

As a simple thought experiment, start with the game board found in Shadow of Mordor. Now make it bigger with more positions. Add more complex interactions between the positions like how different chess pieces have different moves and attacks. Now on this 'chess board' let some NPCs intelligently play their positions against the player, and other NPCs. Finally, give the NPCs the opportunity to win. This would create an action RPG/strategy game. The 'story' would come from how the game played out. The more complex the actions within the strategic and actions level, as well as the interactions between those levels, the more interesting that story would be.
 
That's my problem with and the reason why I avoid open world games so much. Most are just a lot of nothing with no focus.

The "open world rule" is honestly one of the worst trends in gaming right now.
 
MGSV was probably the worst offender for big massive open worlds with jack shit worth doing in it. I'd have taken a few bases of Camp Omega's quality instead of the superfluous shit we got. Hell it's like Kojima was more influenced by Ubisoft than good open world devs like rockstar or CDPR.

It seems really rote for people to make this point over and over on GAF. I've never really gotten it at all. MGSV has plenty of unique locations, the fact that they aren't all Camp Omega doesn't make it an Ubisoft/WB open-world game. In fact, the game isn't stuffed to the gills with dull, repetitive content at all. There's actually very little in it. If you want to complain about that, go ahead, but the sprawl gives it a realism and also allows for some missions that play out over large areas and multiple locations. I wouldn't have it any other way. As for emptiness, I'd put it about on par with the beloved RDR by the unquestionably flawless R*. Except it doesn't make you press X over and over to ride your fucking horse.
 
Glad Jim made this video. I don't mind a good open world game here and there, but they've completely taken over. For every GTAV or MGSV, you get a dozen or so Watchdogs. Open world games are also really bad, in most cases, at telling a story, namely because of their open nature. All those great 8-12 hour linear single player action adventure games from the PS2 and PS3/360 era have been replaced by paint by the numbers open world games. The problem is a lot of these open world games try to tell those same stories that were present in 8-12 hour action adventure games within a bloated 40-60 hour open world experience with zero pacing and awful, just awful busy work. It's starting to infect RPGs too: see DA:I. And fuck I used to like to buy a bunch of games every year. Now with everything being open world you are lucky if you are able to finish a handful.
 
Did strike a chord with me. Really does sum up my main complaint with both of the last two games I played - Watch Dogs 2 and Mafia III.

Ordinarily I love the big Open World Sandbox format, however Watch Dogs 2 in particular seemed almost indistinguishable from Ubisofts other Open World game...The Crew. I never felt I got to know Cisco through playing the game. Instead I was just racing from one mission marker on one side of the city to the next mission marker on the other.


I think people need to stop using Ubisoft games to prove their point when they want to say open world design is bad.

Not really what I was saying. I played two openworld games very recently. Both suffered the same problem. One just happened to be a Ubisoft product (that I was expecting more from).

So maybe instead of using Ubisoft to point out why open world is a bad idea, point out how they do open world wrong.

See, I typically like Ubisoft openworld. Especially Assassins Creed. I find once you get out the OCD mindset of "must get every collectable" they become extremely fun. Often time I find I get completely side tracked by something of total inconsequence. That experience of being side tracked by the world was noticably missing from both WD2 and Mafia III.

GTA and RDR manage to do it very well, Witcher 3 also was pretty nice.

The joke here, of course, is how big and lifeless RDR really was. Huge desert map that had you riding a horse for ages to get to the next progression point. And yet Rockstar are masters of the open world and managed to successfully hide that with random blue circle event pop-ups and stranger missions dotted around the map.

So apart from the GTA 5 and Witcher 3 what other recent games have convincing, organic open worlds that truly feel alive?

Sleeping Dogs

Most Assassin's Creed games and Watch Dogs in my opinion.

Not Watch Dogs 2.
 
yeah pretty much. the atmosphere in MGSV is rich, especially in Afganistahn. this is a desolate warzone and the immersion is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

it's a totally different problem than, say, a Far Cry, where the open world ends up meaning one base is pretty much the same as all the others. in MGSV every single base is unique, every single side op is unique, right down to the tiny roadside outposts. enemy placement and mission goals are attuned to match the specific geography and as a result every mission feels unique. MGSV is a demonstration of open world design done right.

I agree. That huge posted quoted above does a great job of explaining why. The open world allows for a ton of different aporoaches, wheresas I have no gameplay freedom in GTA missions. Yes, the world is open and filled with sights and sounds, but there is very little freedom in the missions themselves.
 
I wonder how many people will apply this criticism to Breath of the Wild.
Considering that you can interact with pretty much anything in the world, i hope very few. Not that people always necessarily know what they're talking about though.

Xenoblade had this too, I found. While the world was beautiful, I realized quite quickly that there really isn't all that much to do in it. At least you could teleport to places you needed to be at quickly. Did they address this in the sequel?
Xenoblade is jam packed with things to do and rewarding exploration and the sequel is even better in this regard. Seriously, open world games don't need 45 basic quests every 3 steps. Games that do this are boring and repetitive as hell (modern Assassin's Creed titles).

Gothic 2 NotR is still the prime example of how to do an open world right. No filler or padding. Decent size world that is well designed, interesting to explore and full of content. The Stalker, Risen, and Divinity series of games also do it very well.
Yes.

I had a blast with Xenoblade X's superb world design though it's quest design wasn't the best at all.
It kind of was though, unless you really want to focus on the (very few, compared to the first one) quests about going in a 874737km2 area to get 6 items with a 2% drop rate.
 
This is a topic I've been talking to my friends about for a couple of years now. OW games are fine, and sometimes I'm really in the mood for them, but no matter how well designed the OW it can't compare to the carefully crafted linear experience. It's not even about story, it's about pacing. There's a place for each type of experience, but I feel like we reached a saturation point with open world and I'm hoping the pendulum shifts back in the other direction, like how a few years ago every goddamn indie title out there went the roguelike route and everything was procedurally generated...a lot of the great indie titles last year and on my radar for this year are a little more deliberate and rely on solid level design over a good algorithm.
 
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