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Jimquisition: Loot n' Plunder (August 8th)
- Thread starter L~A
- Start date
It's easy to say don't buy any loot boxes, but it doesn't change what they're trying to accomplish by playing on people's impulses which is why the Rio stuff is only available for a couple of weeks, on top of the RNG, on top of not being able to use the in game currency, on top of the possibility of getting duplicates just to decrease the chance of getting what you want.
They already have people spending extra on top of their $60 for existing content, and there's plenty of ways to support a game without resorting to these methods, such as allowing people just to buy what they want.
What's shameful are the amount of people who are okay with this.
While I think it's still not "fine", there would be little to no new outrage if this wasn't a limited event. The fact that it's limited should not be acceptable to anyone.
Either make them buyable straight up or make them unlimited. I can't see how anyone can defend this.
BrassDragon
Member
Guess they have to show investors mega projected growth as the star of WOW begins to fade.
I love this game but I'm 100% behind Jim's criticism.
Business practices aside, the PR spin is just insulting to the core audience. Own what you're doing and defend it on its own merits instead of made-up 'benefits'.
I love this game but I'm 100% behind Jim's criticism.
Business practices aside, the PR spin is just insulting to the core audience. Own what you're doing and defend it on its own merits instead of made-up 'benefits'.
In spite of WoD, their latest earnings seemed to paint WoW in a fairly positive light.
OW was their star though, so I guess they do have to show growth there.
Explain to me why a business should not capitalize on a monetization schedule that the market will not only bear but happily consume at a batshit-insane rate.
Also consider why you expect the business to leave $60 per person on the table when the market has proven they will gladly pay it. F2P games are only free because the game or studio doesn't have the brand awareness to justify an entrance price. Let's be honest, Blizzard can and has put a turd in a box for $60 and solid millions of copies of said boxed turd. Diablo 3 PC Launch, anyone? Cataclysm?
Why would they not charge $60 for Overwatch?
The argument is basically, "we should protect people from themselves as they're too stupid to not spend their money foolishly" and you can't start going down that road.
Why should players get new shit for free? Overwatch is a live service game, it will be running 15 years from now. Should everything for 15 years be free? How do you expect them to support the game, sans subscription?
BTW, microtransaction-based games make way more money than subscription-based games ever did. The market prefers microtransactions, if they didn't the profits wouldn't be as insane as they are.
People spend money on the things they want. It's as simple as that.
Loot boxes exist because that's the only form of gambling that the Chinese Ministry of Culture will allow in online games and gambling is hugely popular in China. Really, this isn't rocket science.
Obviously they're a business, and they are in the business to make money. It is their obligation to make as much money as possible. To not charge for it is a really stupid business decision. The Blizzard brand can withstand some people being a bit pissy over loot boxes especially when those exact same people will buy them anyway.
Also Blizzard makes their games for Chinese market just as much as the western market. Chinese gamers LOVE loot boxes. It's seen as a huge positive if your game has random loot boxes. And that market has never been trained to expect this sort of thing for free so they have no problem paying for it. In fact they prefer to pay real money rather than have to "spend" a timesink.
MTX loot boxes are not ever going to go away from online games.
Also consider why you expect the business to leave $60 per person on the table when the market has proven they will gladly pay it. F2P games are only free because the game or studio doesn't have the brand awareness to justify an entrance price. Let's be honest, Blizzard can and has put a turd in a box for $60 and solid millions of copies of said boxed turd. Diablo 3 PC Launch, anyone? Cataclysm?
Why would they not charge $60 for Overwatch?
The argument is basically, "we should protect people from themselves as they're too stupid to not spend their money foolishly" and you can't start going down that road.
Why should players get new shit for free? Overwatch is a live service game, it will be running 15 years from now. Should everything for 15 years be free? How do you expect them to support the game, sans subscription?
BTW, microtransaction-based games make way more money than subscription-based games ever did. The market prefers microtransactions, if they didn't the profits wouldn't be as insane as they are.
People spend money on the things they want. It's as simple as that.
Loot boxes exist because that's the only form of gambling that the Chinese Ministry of Culture will allow in online games and gambling is hugely popular in China. Really, this isn't rocket science.
Obviously they're a business, and they are in the business to make money. It is their obligation to make as much money as possible. To not charge for it is a really stupid business decision. The Blizzard brand can withstand some people being a bit pissy over loot boxes especially when those exact same people will buy them anyway.
Also Blizzard makes their games for Chinese market just as much as the western market. Chinese gamers LOVE loot boxes. It's seen as a huge positive if your game has random loot boxes. And that market has never been trained to expect this sort of thing for free so they have no problem paying for it. In fact they prefer to pay real money rather than have to "spend" a timesink.
MTX loot boxes are not ever going to go away from online games.
Gentleman Jack
Member
This isn't a meaningful revelation. The objections have renewed because the rio lootboxes are an even worse value proposition than the existing lootbox system. It's as simple as that.
newtypepilot
Member
another great video by Jim. Blizzard seems to always get a free pass but they shouldn't. The D3 AH was a fucking mess as it made the game unplayable. I remember having to spend more time in AH than actually playing the fucking game. The loot system is designed to exploit a certain type of people and people should call them out on it.
I'm curious how TotalBiscuit would respond to it (if he does) since he pretty much disagreed with Jim and defended the loot crate system last time.
I'm curious how TotalBiscuit would respond to it (if he does) since he pretty much disagreed with Jim and defended the loot crate system last time.
What use do the objections have? To say, "I don't agree!" ... okay?
Blizzard isn't going to stop doing this. MTX exclusive, limited time special editions are a staple of live service games. Nothing drives sales and justifies a premium like "limited time only".
When speaking of online, live-service games - especially ones from studios that are PC-focused like Blizzard - the truth is that the entire western market could stop playing their games today and Blizzard could still survive just fine with the future only looking better and better for them as China's middle class grows.
The market is shifting and the people that were previously catered to exclusively don't like to share attention with the "new baby", as it were.
Stallion Dan
Member
I hate 'free' RNG unlockables, and I hate every game that uses them to try and push microtransactions.
Uncharted 4 doing it right now, no dupicates but the 'crates' are so expensive using in-game currency (like 1 per every 7-9 days on average, if you do all you can) you will probably take months to get what you really want for free, probably longer if they release more DLC so the loot table you just got small enough to maybe get the item you want with a bit of luck suddenly explodes with a bunch of new stuff.
The thing is, if you wanna buy the items they are really expensive too. If they did away with this RNG BS and just made some things pay-only but priced like previous games, I'd actually spend money on them. Skins have gone from like 79p in the last game to up to around £7 in the current one. F-off.
Uncharted 4 doing it right now, no dupicates but the 'crates' are so expensive using in-game currency (like 1 per every 7-9 days on average, if you do all you can) you will probably take months to get what you really want for free, probably longer if they release more DLC so the loot table you just got small enough to maybe get the item you want with a bit of luck suddenly explodes with a bunch of new stuff.
The thing is, if you wanna buy the items they are really expensive too. If they did away with this RNG BS and just made some things pay-only but priced like previous games, I'd actually spend money on them. Skins have gone from like 79p in the last game to up to around £7 in the current one. F-off.
BibiMaghoo
Member
Quite easy this one, every business that does this has to weigh the financial gain against the loss of players and damage to the brand. Every business goal is to make money, but doing so can come at a greater cost overall. We have seen this many times in gaming. Sometimes they pay off like XBLG, and sometimes they do not like Online Passes.
You don't rob your customers, because then they don't come back? If they feel devalued, they don't come back? Which has the greater value? The few who spend lots of money, or the many that spend little? Balance is the correct approach for both, and that is why you would sometimes leave money you could otherwise have on the table.
Gentleman Jack
Member
You seemed to not understand why users are more disgruntled than before as if they were demanding everything 'for free.' I'm pointing out that they should at least not expect things to get worse, as they very obviously have. That Blizzard is brushing the backlash aside completely is a sign of a company that is utterly out of touch. Yeah maybe they won't stop. Or maybe customers will awaken to the fact that the fleecing is getting worse and will make them stop by not buying into it.
Maybe I'm being optimistic. But I am at least getting a little tired of the 'explanations' about how these meaningless cosmetics don't have an impact and that blizzard is a company that wants money and blah blah blah. You aren't addressing the topic, merely reiterating the background radiation of the news.
Bumbletron
Member
The fact of the matter is: People were going to stop buying lootcrates very quickly. The people who would buy them already have, meaning that they likely have enough of what they want + enough gold to get the rest, that they wouldn't feel the need to buy more boxes and just leave everything else up to grinding with the rng.
The returns on the boxes were going to diminish greatly, and those are what they are counting on to ensure the longevity and funding of the game. Keep in mind that the funding coming from the loot boxes is not the only money on the line for them. Investors see the data on revenue earned from them and will invest more. All of this keeps the servers running and the content coming out.
But if we could just buy the items with gold, no one would have bought the boxes. I certainly wouldn't have, at the very least, as I had 3000 gold stocked and ready to go. Things would continue this way for each event. There would be no reason for anyone to buy loot boxes. Timed things like this help out with that a lot. This is still the least of all potential evils here.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I should be specific and say I'm talking about Dota where a.) you don't get dupes until you've gotten one of everything a chest can contain, b.) pretty much everything you get from a chest is at least pretty neat (they're 98% cool hero skins and 2% even rarer cooler items) and c.) the vast majority of it is availible for direct cash purchase somewhere either via Valve directly or via the built-in inter-user sales platform, so that I'm only gambling if I want a chance at the special unique effect courier, but if I just really want one particular skin I can find it at some price somewhere instead of spending $20 on crates
The non-dupe thing and the non-trash thing are the important parts of it. Sure maybe the crate gave me a Windranger skin I'm unlikely to use, but I can at least appreciate that it's cool. No-one enjoys unlocking voice lines and player icons in Overwatch
This whole thing is infuriating.
I completely understand people being indifferent and not caring either way because it's "just cosmetics" but how anyone can defend this shit is beyond me.
The fact that it's a timed promotion and you can't use in game currency at all were the biggest offenders in all this. After playing the game and opening 3 lootboxes, the rabbit hole of bullshit goes even further. I knew you could get dupes of the summer items. What i didn't know is that the summer lootboxes aren't JUST summer items. You are however guaranteed at least 1 summer item. WTF IS THIS BULLSHIT? Fuck you blizzard! Given that you can still get dupes from the summer items, there's ab-so-fucking-lutely no reason at all to not make the summer lootboxes nothing but summer items. So i opened 3 boxes and walked away with 3 summer sprays and 9 "regular items" with 6 of those regular items being dupes. On top of that, the cheeky fuckers have the nerve to give you the option to switch your summer loot box into a standard box if you want. What the fuck in the point? Why would anyone do this when there's no way anyone is going to realistically get all the summer content added to the fact that you're still getting standard loot in summer boxes anyway?
This shit is just indefensible.
I bought overwatch ( full $60 console version, no option for a discounted version like the one that was available on PC) with the knowledge that all future content would be free. And although the argument can be made that this is free, it's really not when they craft so many loopholes and make you grind harder than a master blacksmith to get things that you want. And the thing that really pisses me off, there are small things they could have done to not make this so shitty
1) Don't make it a timed promotion. This way people know they can/will get the content eventually at some point if they play long enough
2) Allow me to use my in game currency, even if the currency let me buy the summer lootboxes rather than the specific items
3) Make the summer lootboxes nothing but summer items. If i can still get fucked by running into dupes, what would have been the harm?
The fact of the matter is though, for every person that feels the way i do there's a hundred who are more than willing to plop down cash to further keep the bullshit system in place. Might as well be farting into the wind. Damned if you do, damned if you don't
I completely understand people being indifferent and not caring either way because it's "just cosmetics" but how anyone can defend this shit is beyond me.
The fact that it's a timed promotion and you can't use in game currency at all were the biggest offenders in all this. After playing the game and opening 3 lootboxes, the rabbit hole of bullshit goes even further. I knew you could get dupes of the summer items. What i didn't know is that the summer lootboxes aren't JUST summer items. You are however guaranteed at least 1 summer item. WTF IS THIS BULLSHIT? Fuck you blizzard! Given that you can still get dupes from the summer items, there's ab-so-fucking-lutely no reason at all to not make the summer lootboxes nothing but summer items. So i opened 3 boxes and walked away with 3 summer sprays and 9 "regular items" with 6 of those regular items being dupes. On top of that, the cheeky fuckers have the nerve to give you the option to switch your summer loot box into a standard box if you want. What the fuck in the point? Why would anyone do this when there's no way anyone is going to realistically get all the summer content added to the fact that you're still getting standard loot in summer boxes anyway?
This shit is just indefensible.
I bought overwatch ( full $60 console version, no option for a discounted version like the one that was available on PC) with the knowledge that all future content would be free. And although the argument can be made that this is free, it's really not when they craft so many loopholes and make you grind harder than a master blacksmith to get things that you want. And the thing that really pisses me off, there are small things they could have done to not make this so shitty
1) Don't make it a timed promotion. This way people know they can/will get the content eventually at some point if they play long enough
2) Allow me to use my in game currency, even if the currency let me buy the summer lootboxes rather than the specific items
3) Make the summer lootboxes nothing but summer items. If i can still get fucked by running into dupes, what would have been the harm?
The fact of the matter is though, for every person that feels the way i do there's a hundred who are more than willing to plop down cash to further keep the bullshit system in place. Might as well be farting into the wind. Damned if you do, damned if you don't
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Some people wanna be fleeced, some are tight-fisted misers, hence the creeping to keep the revenue healthy.
The limited-but-unbuyable part and the bad spin is the takeaways for me here.
There was always an easy mode, sometimes multiple; that whole angle is a work.
The limited-but-unbuyable part and the bad spin is the takeaways for me here.
There was always an easy mode, sometimes multiple; that whole angle is a work.
The excuse that "businesses are there to make money" is just that: an excuse. Sure, they don't "owe" us anything, and we're never "forced" to buy anything, but what the "businesses are there to make money" mantra forgets is that the "make money" part hinges on making customers and retaining them. Do I believe Blizzard is doomed because of this? No, of course not. But from a company that's known for the care they put in their work, this kind of move is always disappointing.
I'm not necessarily against them making money through microtransactions - though it's always rich when you've already paid the game full price -, but don't take us for fools by acting like everything's free and cosmetic yadda yadda yadda. I get that they need/want to make more money, and that's why I was never hostile to the Diablo 3 Real Money Auction House because I thought I felt the system was fair enough and wasn't the result of some kind of slimy scheme/calculation to make you feel like buying stuff with real money is the only legitimate way to get that stuff... Though I could be wrong for all I know, and Vanilla D3's incredibly poor looting system was made on purpose to make the AH enticing. What the hell do I know.
All I know is that Overwatch's microtransactions are way too conspicuous in the way they're implemented, and feel "calculatedly" unfair - if that's even a word. Basically, at least be subtle about it, Blizzard. Don't make us feel like cash cows, and don't make us buy stuff through frustration.
Again, loot boxes are fine in my book I guess, but I highly doubt even the Chinese market loves the fact that you can get the same items over and over again, and that most of it is completely unappealing. Activision is not just using that business model because the Chinese market loves it. They're doing it because the Chinese market doesn't buy games AFAIK, or does so at a lower price. Short of advertising, microtransactions is the only way video game companies seem to be able to make money over there. You need to get the game in the Chinese's hands first, and then they'll spend money.
Maintenance
Member
Comparing easy mode to Microtransactions, jesus. The length some people go to defend this shit.
I already regret getting the game.
I already regret getting the game.
R_thanatos
Member
Actually uncharted 4 , you can get 3000 relics to unlock pay gameplay dlc by playing few matches a day during a week ( enough to complete the daily challenges )
Since the patch that changed the rules i've unlocked 3 of them ( 9000 relics in total ) and i'm on my way to unlock the 4th. I can do that because there are NO DUPLICATES so i don't feel like i'm wasting my time.
And contrary to overwatch i can just pay money to unlock the thing i really want right now if i don't want to wait...i'm not paying for more chances to get the thing i want without any garantee to get it.
AtomskEater
Member
Okay, what is the origin of the barbarian thing at 8:09? I've seen that used for a gag a few times now.
V Thank you.
V Thank you.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
They're doing exactly what they said they were going to, it's not some shocking turn of events. Everyone's acting like they've been shanghaied.
The reason why we feel this way is because no one knew that they would do limited time items that could only be earned through loot boxes. If they would've either allowed us to use our coins we've earned to purchase whatever we like (like they do with EVERY other item in the game), not have a limited time to get them, or have Summer Only Loot Boxes, the backlash wouldn't be as big as it is now.
F2P is just like the crack game. Let people sample the product at no cost, then wait for the for the fiends to show up. Plus some do have the money to advertise and to get people like an Arnold Schwarzenegger or Kate Upton's chest to help increase the brand awareness to anyone with a smart device.
F2P is a lucrative business, which is why Blizzard is doing what they're doing with Overwatch and why games have been adding RNG/rarity based microtransaction systems into full priced games.
People turning the blind eye is why they can get away with charging $60 upfront and still have the F2P system in place. It's only a matter of time until it stops being just cosmetic items.
This is exactly what's not going to happen. The system is designed to keep the money rolling in by making people feel great when they get something that they wanted, and disappointed when they don't to keep them invested until they eventually put additional money into the game.
And now they're preying on people's impulses with items that are only available for a limited time. Nobody was expecting that to happen.
Amongst other issues, we have in game currency that we can't use on in game content. Seems kind of shitty no?
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
That's how event exclusive items work in most games like this. Not ideal but Blizzard is hardly pioneering the format. Plus in most games they tell you to pay or fuck off, at least you can get the boxes normally and you're guaranteed one event item from them, I got two of the skins and a highlight intro from free boxes so far, pretty much everyone I play with has at least one of the skins.
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
I was one of the many people to Tweet him about this so I'm glad he made this video. I supported Blizzard with the original loot boxes but they just had to get greedy and pull this shit.
IMO, had they strictly made it paid content it would be a step up over what's there now. You know what you want, you buy it, you're happy. The way it is now, it's "free" but the RNG is so ludicrous to the point that even if someone grinded levels 24 hrs a day for the next 3 weeks, i don't think they'd have all the summer content.
The summer lootboxes have standard loot mixed in which makes it all the more difficult for you to get summer items not to mention you can still get dupes for summer items.
Even if they simply made it so that all the summer lootboxes contain nothing but summer items, (dupes and all) that alone would be a HUGE step up from what they've implemented now.
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
Definitely. I don't have a lot of money so I can't RNG gamble £31.99 in boxes to maybe, possibly get the 1 item I want, but if they let me buy it for say £4.99 I'd do so because that's affordable to me and guaranteed, but in comparison that would get me what? 5 boxes? You need some lottery winning luck to get the item you want in 5 boxes, or hell, even 50 lets be honest. I watched Seagull open 100 boxes and he didn't get the skin I want.
This was a great episode Jim!
I'm not playing overwatch but understand all the issues with it as I also have problems sometimes with UC4's cosmetic loot boxes.
The good thing is they are not as stingy, giving useless drops like in Overwatch, but the newly dropped cosmetics in Uncharted 4 now cost way more in game currency than vanilla launch and it's really annoying.
Sure getting free maps and modes (co-op!) is awesome but it's rough when you really want some valuable (to me) in game cosmetics that are mainly attainable by spending money or crazy grinding/RNG mercy.
I love ND but I'm not blind to what their goading me into doing, mega games like these will just mean more publishers and devs will be undertaking these underhand practices.
I'm not playing overwatch but understand all the issues with it as I also have problems sometimes with UC4's cosmetic loot boxes.
The good thing is they are not as stingy, giving useless drops like in Overwatch, but the newly dropped cosmetics in Uncharted 4 now cost way more in game currency than vanilla launch and it's really annoying.
Sure getting free maps and modes (co-op!) is awesome but it's rough when you really want some valuable (to me) in game cosmetics that are mainly attainable by spending money or crazy grinding/RNG mercy.
I love ND but I'm not blind to what their goading me into doing, mega games like these will just mean more publishers and devs will be undertaking these underhand practices.
Fuz
Banned
Problem is this:
I personally wouldn't have had a problem with them selling the crates for money only, or even the skins like in HotS. I don't really care much for skins, even more so for the summer games ones.
But I do care about the fact that they broke their word, and tried to sweep it under the rug. It's a scummy move. And puts at question mark on the whole "free heroes/free maps" promise, too.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
I feel like we are going to run into a League of Legends situation, where in a year or two, players will have massive gold stockpiles and nothing to spend it on as more and more skins can't be purchased with gold.
It's a high quality game that pays a lot of attention to the community and actively works on elements of the game at all times.
It sounds like a lot of people want their cake and would like to eat it too. Do you want a high quality game that constantly improves and abd listens to the userbase, or do you want hats?
I understand people hate microtransactions in full price games, but the price of the game itself cannot sustain the game's upkeep and maintenance in the long run.
On another note, I doubt the fact that we got the 60 tick servers after the majority of the Summer event is over is no coincidence.
Honestly I think the constant outcry about this is embarrassing. They're bloody digital skins that add nothing to how you perform. It's not pay to win. The fact that some people are dropping the game over this is just sad. Makes me wonder if they even liked the game. I mean, you can't even see the damn skin while you play and given how the game plays the only time people will really notice is if you get POTG or they actually bother watching every kill cam.
But I'm sure peoppe already knew my stance on this. Honestly I think this whole thing annoys me a tiny bit because I watched it change from "but gambling" to "but in game currency" and "but time limit" then "but it cost $60" and finally "but their terms originally said this!" All that's really the problem here honestly is that people want their e-cred for having a cool skin but don't realise that if they could get this thing they're obsessing over very easily then they probably wouldn't be obsessing over it at all - you probably wouldn't even want them because everyone else will have them.
It sounds like a lot of people want their cake and would like to eat it too. Do you want a high quality game that constantly improves and abd listens to the userbase, or do you want hats?
I understand people hate microtransactions in full price games, but the price of the game itself cannot sustain the game's upkeep and maintenance in the long run.
On another note, I doubt the fact that we got the 60 tick servers after the majority of the Summer event is over is no coincidence.
Honestly I think the constant outcry about this is embarrassing. They're bloody digital skins that add nothing to how you perform. It's not pay to win. The fact that some people are dropping the game over this is just sad. Makes me wonder if they even liked the game. I mean, you can't even see the damn skin while you play and given how the game plays the only time people will really notice is if you get POTG or they actually bother watching every kill cam.
But I'm sure peoppe already knew my stance on this. Honestly I think this whole thing annoys me a tiny bit because I watched it change from "but gambling" to "but in game currency" and "but time limit" then "but it cost $60" and finally "but their terms originally said this!" All that's really the problem here honestly is that people want their e-cred for having a cool skin but don't realise that if they could get this thing they're obsessing over very easily then they probably wouldn't be obsessing over it at all - you probably wouldn't even want them because everyone else will have them.
FTFY
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Let me buy Legendary skins directly for $5-10
Boom, 80% of whining shut up
There's still sucky stuff, but it would feel much much less exploitative
People who can't afford that will then whine about how they're too expensive, similarly to how people whine now that they can't afford to buy boxes. They'd still be on about the in-game currency thing too.