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[zero shift]

Interestingly, some of the most strident proponents of a minimum guaranteed income hail from the libertarian right. I was first introduced to the idea when I was given a bunch of free books when I was interning with a Koch-sponsored libertarian think tank, one of which was Charles Murray's "In our Hands." The libertarian argument is essentially that a UBI is preferable to current welfare state guarantees because it eliminates the bureaucracies inherent in current programs like medicare and social security and allows the market to operate rather tha giving in-kind donations, which are rearely as efficient as direct cash transfers. Left-ish libertarians also support it as a minimal guarantee without which market transactions can't be said to be meaningfully consensual - if the choice is starve or work, so the argument goes, capitalist exchange always occurs at the point of a gun.

UBI is kind of interesting in that it has support from both the far-right and far-left, and not much in between.

Its a perfect example of once you go so far one way in the political spectrum you start coming out the other.

 

[WordAssassin]

I lost my job two months ago. I thought my money would last until I found a new job but my employer screwed me out of unemployment. I'm unable to get WIC because I'm a single male with no children. I'm about a month away from sleeping in a park. My phone will be disconnected this week. My car will be repo'd this month.

Something like this could really help people in my situation.

Dude what? Where do you live? Family you could stay with? Are there any GAFfers near you that could lend you a couch or something if you lose your place?

This is not cool [understatement]. How could Apple keep you from getting unemployment?? You should talk to someone about that ASAP.

 

[Vanillalite]

Would a BIG program give money just to all adults or to everyone even children?

 

[TheLaughingStock]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/allan-sheahen/jobs-are-not-the-answer_b_3727048.html




What do you think GAF? It is not a big issue now but sooner or later we will need to start thinking really hard about the automation caused by information technology and the inevitable unemployment due to losses of traditional jobs which it will replace. And this is not something we can just create some policies about - it is going to require a major shakeup in our culture and governance to address.

The author needs to do more research. Let's focus on having the economy operate at its full potential before claiming there aren't enough things to do.

 

[Vicetrailia]

So this is a solution? The US is so doomed. 100% facilitation for us, 0% for you dirty poors, so get on those boostraps.

 

[pje122]

Wow. Have any other fucking dumb ideas we could post in this thread?
Maybe if we explored the history of the USSR or China we could find some.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Wow. Have any other fucking dumb ideas we could post in this thread?
Maybe if we explored the history of the USSR or China we could find some.

Your thinking is outdated by decades, and incredibly basic to be equating the way you are.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I'm actually not opposed to this but it needs to go hand in hand with a few other things - firstly it needs to be only slightly over the poverty line. Secondly it needs to be simultaneous to the winding down of the majority of welfare programmes. Also, it needs to go hand in hand with the removal of any minimum wages in place. Once people have a guaranteed income of enough to support them, the justification for a minimum wage - to stop people desperate for work being exploited - goes out the window, and by removing it we would find ourselves in a situation whereby those that desire more spending money can work for it if they want, and they'd actually be in a much greater bargaining position because the alternative to acceptjng ow wage offers isnt welfare. Speaking of which, there is a similar argument there; once you know everyone can afford healthcare if they want it, food when they need it, etc, the need for a safety net disappears - you get the safety net up front, and it allows people to funnel their money go the people and businesses that they think are best, not the ones that the government wants to make the most profit.


I actually think you could do this in a relatively revenue neutral way, whilst fixing a lot of social ills.

 

[Trojita]

Which would provide fita much higher quality of life than inter city rail would. HSR the way Americans push is really just people wanting shiny largely not functional things.


Also

Star Trek

Also what I meant in my earlier post was HSR across major areas. Mostly centered around the most populous regions in the nation. A high speed rail system from the east coast to west coast and north to south would be ridiculously awesome if it came out of thin air, but it isn't feasible.

 

[jimi_dini]

Having a policy to give enough to live somewhat well to everyone would be an economic disaster.

And you think millions of people that are starving to death and got nothing to lose would be better?

Even if you don't care about such people, you should at least care about living in a country, where you won't get killed for a bread. Because that will be the result.

Get into the automation field. There are tons of jobs out there for people who can install, repair, and maintain the robots or other automated processes that are taking the low skill jobs people used to do.

It is a skilled position that requires some form of training, so you can't be replaced by someone off the street, and it pays very well.

yeah, billions of people are needed in automation field. smh

Having billions of people with extremly high education will just result in a large percentage of people with extremly high education being unemployed.

 

[milanbaros]

People have said this for years. It is true that not everyone has to work for people to have enough to survive but if people work they will increase output. That won't change. There is always something someone could do that would increase output and utility. That work will change, just like it has over the past 300 years.

 

[maniac-kun]

We even have some political parties that want this to happen in Germany.

 

[Winterfang]

Dude what? Where do you live? Family you could stay with? Are there any GAFfers near you that could lend you a couch or something if you lose your place?

This is not cool [understatement]. How could Apple keep you from getting unemployment?? You should talk to someone about that ASAP.

I'm on a similar situation, my job offers unemployment but it's being 3 months and I had yet to receive a single check, always some shit comes out and they cancel that one. I have an appointment this 23 where they supposedly will give me my unemployment benefits, pisses me off.

 

[Hellraizah]

And you think millions of people that are starving to death and got nothing to lose would be better?

Even if you don't care about such people, you should at least care about living in a country, where you won't get killed for a bread. Because that will be the result.

And if bread becomes a rare commodity? Like food in USSR, or more recently, toilet paper in Venezuela. You might have the money to buy it, if there's none in sight, you are pretty much back to square one.

Only advantage is, in a society where you can just live by deciding you don't want to work, people would get lazy enough that killing someone else would become too much effort.

I live in Canada, and I grew up in HLMs (equivalent to projects in the US). My mom was on welfare the whole time, and she had three kids to feed. Thinking about it now, I've never really seen "real" poverty here. By real poverty, I mean someone who struggles to get the basics (food, clothes, shelter) because of a lack of money. To me, anyone thinking he/she is poor and got a car, cable TV, internet, smokes cigarettes, drinks, etc. ain't poor, they are just poor at managing money.

 

[thetrin]

I have yet to see evidence of this behaviour. People who simply don't work most often than not are suffering from a mental disease or crippling addiction.

I always find it weird that so many people have such little faith in humans that they assume that predominantly, if people didn't have to work, they wouldn't.

People like feeling useful. Give them something they're into, and they'll put the work into it.

 

[Link]

And if bread becomes a rare commodity? Like food in USSR, or more recently, toilet paper in Venezuela. You might have the money to buy it, if there's none in sight, you are pretty much back to square one.

Only advantage is, in a society where you can just live by deciding you don't want to work, people would get lazy enough that killing someone else would become too much effort.

I live in Canada, and I grew up in HLMs (equivalent to projects in the US). My mom was on welfare the whole time, and she had three kids to feed. Thinking about it now, I've never really seen "real" poverty here. By real poverty, I mean someone who struggles to get the basics (food, clothes, shelter) because of a lack of money. To me, anyone thinking he/she is poor and got a car, cable TV, internet, smokes cigarettes, drinks, etc. ain't poor, they are just poor at managing money.

So you pretty much think the poor aren't really poor and they're all just complaining they don't make enough? You've proven time and again how out of touch with reality you are.

 

[Seth C]

Ya but anyone can power a broom. Give people the guaranteed wage but have them sweeping the streets, washing buildings, painting rails, pulling weeds from the park.

You mean... shit we could easily develop robots to accomplish if we really wanted to? Spuds like a great solution.

 

[pompidu]

This is one of those things that sound nice on paper but doesn't work practically.

 

[Hellraizah]

So you pretty much think the poor aren't really poor and they're all just complaining they don't make enough? You've proven time and again how out of touch with reality you are.

On a forum where most people seem to think that you could just "give" people money and be done with poverty, that you could just decide to raise the wages of burger flippers to 15$ per hour and solve most problems, and I could go on and on about what I've read here that "sounds nice at first" but would never ever work in the real world...

I'll take the "out of touch with reality" as a compliment.

 

[jimi_dini]

And if bread becomes a rare commodity? Like food in USSR, or more recently, toilet paper in Venezuela. You might have the money to buy it, if there's none in sight, you are pretty much back to square one.

I meant that if millions of people don't even have money to buy bread - some will possibly starve, some may try to steal it and some others will just take it by force.

Only advantage is, in a society where you can just live by deciding you don't want to work, people would get lazy enough that killing someone else would become too much effort.

A few? maybe. But I wouldn't mind about those. Normally people want to do something useful in some shape or form.
And this here is not about getting paid so well for nothing that they could have a luxury life (like some sort of 365 days per year in a holiday resort living). People would still work for additional money - to be able to afford more.

Just think about people like Nostalgia Critic for example. Would I be okay with someone getting guaranteed minimum income and then that person making such videos? Sure, I would. That counts as well. Even if it wouldn't be profitable. But people could then do things they personally like, that they enjoy doing. Do you think nurses in hospitals do their job for the lousy payment? I would bet many of those do it primarily because they love their jobs. Love to help other people. It would change the system, sure. But for the greater good. Because bad jobs would have to get paid well instead of effectively forcing people to do it.

I live in Canada, and I grew up in HLMs (equivalent to projects in the US). My mom was on welfare the whole time, and she had three kids to feed.

So your mom got a somewhat "guaranteed minimum income". No idea, if there are any requirements or limits related to it in Canada.

In US for example you get welfare for 5 years, if I remember correctly. After that you are fucked. At least welfare related.

In Germany on the other hand, you will get welfare, but there are several conditions connected to it, especially after a year of regular welfare payments (and it doesn't matter if you never worked before or if you worked for 40 years and then lost your job - you will only get 1 year of regular welfare payments - after that year, you are only allowed to own a certain amount of money, if you still own more than that, you won't get anything - and this isn't just regular money, it's also life insurance and so on). And if you don't or can't fulfill those requirements, you will get less and less welfare. In the end it's possible to deny someone everything. For example people can be and are forced to work for 1EUR/hour. People are also forced to get any job for any payment, unless they are able to find something better. If they don't do that, it's possible to deny them everything. Not only is that already bad, but it also affects income in general.

And that's the way for everyone including chronically ill people. Which is outright disgusting.

 

[Link]

On a forum where most people seem to think that you could just "give" people money and be done with poverty, that you could just decide to raise the wages of burger flippers to 15$ per hour and solve most problems, and I could go on and on about what I've read here that "sounds nice at first" but would never ever work in the real world...

I'll take the "out of touch with reality" as a compliment.

You shouldn't, seeing as how you're a fairly horrible person. But hey, "Fuck you, I got mine" right? As long as your mom got help, who gives a shit about anyone else.

 

[Hellraizah]

So your mom got a somewhat "guaranteed minimum income". No idea, if there are any requirements or limits related to it in Canada.

Something like that, yeah. I was lucky enough that my mom wasn't one of the weird welfare people (spending on cigarettes, beer, etc.). We never had difficulty to eat, we had cable TV the whole time, and some luxury items. I wasn't living in a castle, but we never felt like we were miserable either. As for the requirement, welfare in Quebec, Canada is pretty much eternal. I know a lot of people who have been living in it for more than 10 or 20 years. Problem is that it gives people a sense of security and they become dependant on the state. My mom doesn't have any kids with her right now (we are all old enough) and she will never ever try to find work, even though she's in awesome shape for her age and she's doing sports. I talked to her about it but she's dependant, she has a fear to lose her "security net".

 

[MilesWebber]

Dude what? Where do you live? Family you could stay with? Are there any GAFfers near you that could lend you a couch or something if you lose your place?

This is not cool [understatement]. How could Apple keep you from getting unemployment?? You should talk to someone about that ASAP.

This sounds embarrassing and not believable but I was bullied to the point of having to quit my job there. Because I left "voluntarily" I'm not able get unemployment. I packed everything I could in my car, spent the last of my money on gas and drove to Arkansas to say with some extended family I don't know very well. This is RURAL Arkansas. 45 minutes to the nearest city-so finding work and transportation is difficult. I will have a roof over my head but not much else for the time being.

Still gotta pay rent, though! So I'm busting my ass on textbroker until the shut off my data lol.

 

[Hellraizah]

You shouldn't, seeing as how you're a fairly horrible person. But hey, "Fuck you, I got mine" right? As long as your mom got help, who gives a shit about anyone else.

Funny thing is, you are judging me as a person because I don't support left-wing ideas that make no sense, economically speaking, to lift people out of poverty. Allright, I have no problem with that, you have the right to your opinion about me.

And yeah, my mom got "help", and she did fine with it. A lot of people here get the same help she has and they complain about how they are so poor. I even know a guy who has been on welfare for 20 years, says he's poor, and he owns 2 cars and a motorcycle.

Do a search about poor people who won the lottery. Check out their lives 10-20 years later and you'll see how most of them ruin their life by making poor decisions. Giving people a lot of money creates an entire new set of problems that might be even worse than what is is now.

 

[jimi_dini]

Something like that, yeah. I was lucky enough that my mom wasn't one of the weird welfare people (spending on cigarettes, beer, etc.).

Ever thought that people that got no jobs for years and years and are feeling useless may get depressed and use alcohol and other drugs to be able to cope with their situations?

And it's not unemployed people only. I personally knew a doctor, that was an alcoholic and died because of that. And he had his own family and kids.

And yeah, my mom got "help", and she did fine with it. A lot of people here get the same help she has and they complain about how they are so poor.

Kinda ironic. And don't assume that people in here are all living in Canada. Canada's welfare system seems to be one of the best world wide. Others suck. And some others are plain shite.

Oh, and it seems people already tried to change your welfare system as well to a shitty one like the one in US.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/cana...ts-welfare-ontario-considering-221935511.html

 

[Link]

Funny thing is, you are judging me as a person because I don't support left-wing ideas that make no sense, economically speaking, to lift people out of poverty. Allright, I have no problem with that, you have the right to your opinion about me.

And yeah, my mom got "help", and she did fine with it. A lot of people here get the same help she has and they complain about how they are so poor. I even know a guy who has been on welfare for 20 years, says he's poor, and he owns 2 cars and a motorcycle.

Do a search about poor people who won the lottery. Check out their lives 10-20 years later and you'll see how most of them ruin their life by making poor decisions. Giving people a lot of money creates an entire new set of problems that might be even worse than what is is now.

You even said you had cable tv and luxury items. Sounds like your mom should have been cut off to fend for herself, since she was obviously doing just fine and really just complaining.

 

[Hellraizah]

You even said you had cable tv and luxury items. Sounds like your mom should have been cut off to fend for herself, since she was obviously doing just fine and really just complaining.

My mom was complaining? Please quote me on that, I don't remember ever writing that.

 

[CornBurrito]

On a forum where most people seem to think that you could just "give" people money and be done with poverty, that you could just decide to raise the wages of burger flippers to 15$ per hour and solve most problems, and I could go on and on about what I've read here that "sounds nice at first" but would never ever work in the real world...

I unno, you lived in Canada and your mother was able to comfortably take care of 3 children while on welfare programs. Seems like giving money to people did solve a lot of problems that poverty causes.

 

[Link]

My mom was complaining? Please quote me on that, I don't remember ever writing that.

She had to initially complain to someone to get on financial assistance, but way to focus on just that point of my post.

 

[Fury Sense]

I look around and see there's so much work that needs to be done. There must be some kind of institutional void.

 

[Hellraizah]

Kinda ironic. And don't assume that people in here are all living in Canada. Canada's welfare system seems to be one of the best world wide. Others suck. And some others are plain shite.

Oh, and it seems people already tried to change your welfare system as well to a shitty one like the one in US.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/cana...ts-welfare-ontario-considering-221935511.html

Welfare in Canada is handled at a provincial level, so it might not be the same in Ontario as it is in Quebec. Since I'm living in Quebec, I can only speak about that system because it is the one I know very well, having half of my family on it and many more people I know.

Welfare in Quebec was called "Bien-être social" (social welfare), but governement changed the name not too long ago to "Aide de dernier recours" (last resort help). To my knowledge, they did this to make it clear to people that this should be temporary help and not a lifestyle.

I don't know the exact amounts that people get right now, but a single person get something like 604$ per month if I remembrper correctly. However, depending on your condition, that can go higher. The guy I know that has 2 cars and a motorcycle get more than 900$ per month because he is "barême sévère" which means disabled. The guy has no physical handicap at all, but he had a paper from a doctor saying he had anxiety problems.

Some people on welfare in Quebec harass their doctors to get a paper saying they are disabled.

People on welfare here get dentists free, I think they also get glasses free and a few other privileges.

While I think that welfare is essential to keep people from living in the streets, I wouldn't consider the system in Quebec to be the best because it makes people far too dependant on the state.

What I think is the worst thing about it is that government often penalizes people who try to get lifted out of it. People on welfare can start to work, but if they do more than 200$ in a month, government cuts thir welfare check because they made too much. This kind of regulation only does a few things :

- People are trying to work just a little, because they do everything to make 200$ or less
- People are working "on the black market" so they can still receive their full amount and make more money on the side without the government knowing about it

People abusing welfare in Quebec is something so common that they even did a comedy show on TV about it that lasted for 3 seasons, it was called "Les Bougons" and every episode was the Bougon welfare family doing something illegal to get more money while retaining all benefits and laughing at how government was so dumb about it. Funniest thing : that show was aired on Radio-Canada (french equivalent to CBC), a state-owned TV channel.

 

[Necromanti]

People abusing welfare in Quebec is something so common that they even did a comedy show on TV about it that lasted for 3 seasons, it was called "Les Bougons" and every episode was the Bougon welfare family doing something illegal to get more money while retaining all benefits and laughing at how government was so dumb about it. Funniest thing : that show was aired on Radio-Canada (french equivalent to CBC), a state-owned TV channel.

Just an aside, but that's a very common and unfounded myth that tends to be propagated by the anti-welfare crowd. Most studies find that welfare fraud usually lies between the range of 1-4% of those receiving welfare. In most cases, it's a non-issue.

 

[Rad-]

Get into the automation field. There are tons of jobs out there for people who can install, repair, and maintain the robots or other automated processes that are taking the low skill jobs people used to do.

It is a skilled position that requires some form of training, so you can't be replaced by someone off the street, and it pays very well.

Repairing and maintaining robotry doesn't really take that much skill and you can teach it to many "low skill job workers". That's what I have done in my job. They just need to have some basic mechanical ability and they will most likely learn that stuff just nicely.

Planning new automation does take skill but I don't think there's that many jobs in that field? At least not where I live.

 

[Hellraizah]

She had to initially complain to someone to get on financial assistance, but way to focus on just that point of my post.

About the part where you are talking about "she should be cut to fend for herself", I never said that. She had 3 children at her charge and had to do everything she could. I'm not advocating a complete removal of welfare, just so you know.

Now, about my mom "today", she is still on welfare and she had no children living with her for more than 10 years. Do I think that welfare should be a little harder on her to get her to work and not be dependant on the state right now? Yes, absolutely.

 

[Link]

About the part where you are talking about "she should be cut to fend for herself", I never said that. She had 3 children at her charge and had to do everything she could. I'm not advocating a complete removal of welfare, just so you know.

Now, about my mom "today", she is still on welfare and she had no children living with her for more than 10 years. Do I think that welfare should be a little harder on her to get her to work and not be dependant on the state right now? Yes, absolutely.

On that point I agree with you somewhat, but you're complaining about people on welfare that don't deserve it, then turn around and say that your mom comfortably raised three kids while having cable and other luxury items. You must realize the hypocrisy there, right? I think your issue is you seem to just assume people abuse the system and don't deserve help, when that's not really the case. I don't know what it's like in Canada, but in the US, welfare fraud hovers below 2%. I'd say that's about as efficient as you can get.

 

[entremet]

Isn't this what we did with swath of Native Americans in the US and they suffered for it? High rates of drug abuse and all?

There is something empowering about self reliance. I still believe in a safety net.

 

[jimi_dini]

The guy I know that has 2 cars and a motorcycle get more than 900$ per month because he is "barême sévère" which means disabled. The guy has no physical handicap at all, but he had a paper from a doctor saying he had anxiety problems.

Some people on welfare in Quebec harass their doctors to get a paper saying they are disabled.

This sounds like propaganda like the one that is broadcasted in my country.

You hopefully know that there are severe disabilities, where the patients do look healthy and normal. Being disabled doesn't always include a wheelchair.

And how dare someone that got disabled is still allowed to keep their belongings. The government should take away all belongings in such cases. Disabled people should be happy that we - the healthy society - allow them to stay alive.

Spoiler

extreme sarcasm - I'm disabled myself - even in exactly a manner that is not obvious to anyone - and no, I don't live on welfare - I got an extremly high skill job

What I think is the worst thing about it is that government often penalizes people who try to get lifted out of it. People on welfare can start to work, but if they do more than 200$ in a month, government cuts thir welfare check because they made too much. This kind of regulation only does a few things :

This only matters in case of low-income jobs (unless of course it's severe fraud).

And that's the difference between this system and actual "guaranteed minimum income".
Guaranteed minimum income is always paid out. It doesn't depend on you having no job or getting income less than X. If you have a job, you will only get paid the money above that minimum income.

 

[CornBurrito]

People abusing welfare in Quebec is something so common that they even did a comedy show on TV about it that lasted for 3 seasons, it was called "Les Bougons" and every episode was the Bougon welfare family doing something illegal to get more money while retaining all benefits and laughing at how government was so dumb about it. Funniest thing : that show was aired on Radio-Canada (french equivalent to CBC), a state-owned TV channel.

This logic is kind of really funny. "There was a TV show on it, it must be a common problem." Provide some actual statistics please.

 

[Hellraizah]

This sounds like propaganda like the one that is broadcasted in my country.

You hopefully know that there are severe disabilities, where the patients do look healthy and normal.

About the doctor harassment, this was said to me by an employee of a welfare office that I know. She spoke with some doctors and they admitted to her that they had patients that were a bit too harassing about getting the disabled papers to get more welfare money. I don't know if we could say if it happens very often, but I wouldn't be surprised at all. I have members of my family who did it and are very proud about it...

 

[industrian]

High Speed Rail across all of America would be amazing.

The airline lobby says "ain't that cute..."

And as much as I would love the worldwide expansion of high-speed rail systems, I have no faith in any large country being able to successfully produce one in time, on budget and with maximised efficiency levels. The amount of money involved is just too much of a magnet for corruption and cut corners.

 

[Hellraizah]

On that point I agree with you somewhat, but you're complaining about people on welfare that don't deserve it, then turn around and say that your mom comfortably raised three kids while having cable and other luxury items. You must realize the hypocrisy there, right? I think your issue is you seem to just assume people abuse the system and don't deserve help, when that's not really the case. I don't know what it's like in Canada, but in the US, welfare fraud hovers below 2%. I'd say that's about as efficient as you can get.

The way I was raised, I wouldn't call that "a woman who don't deserve it". My mom had a situation where she was left there alone with no help, with 3 children.

This is a really different situation than, say, a guy with good health, 18 years old, no children, who apply for welfare and stay on it his whole life.

Problem in Quebec is that there's almost no control over it. I got a cousin who has been on welfare since he was 18 and he just got out of it at 35, not too long ago. He's a pretty upfront guy and he said to me that, while on welfare, working to get out of it never ever crossed is mind. He wasn't ever called by the welfare office to check with him if he did anything to find a job. He just grew tired of it and said to me : "I don't want my little girl to look at her family and think that this is what life is all about".

 

[jimi_dini]

they admitted to her that they had patients that were a bit too harassing about getting the disabled papers to get more welfare money.

The only relevant questions is: were they actually disabled or not. In case they were, then it's absolutely fine to ask for those papers even in harsh way.

I got a cousin who has been on welfare since he was 18 and he just got out of it at 35

So he did get out of it. Why? And what did he do in the meantime? Maybe study?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I disagree with the basic premise that everyone who contributes nothing deserves compensation, indefinitely.

 

[CornBurrito]

This is a really different situation than, say, a guy with good health, 18 years old, no children, who apply for welfare and stay on it his whole life.

Besides your cousin (gee you certainly seem to know a lot of direct family members and friends of friends who are perfect anecdotes of welfare abuse!) do you have any actual statistics on how common this sort of abuse is?

 

[Gallbaro]

I disagree with the basic premise that everyone who contributes nothing deserves compensation, indefinitely.

A tax rate of -50% on $0.00 is still, $0.00.

 

[Hellraizah]

This logic is kind of really funny. "There was a TV show on it, it must be a common problem." Provide some actual statistics please.

Actually, what I said was the other way around : it is common knowledge here, well known SO they made a comedy show about it.

I won't provide statistics since that is something that can't really be known. If you were on doing fraud on welfare and someone calls you to ask you about it from the stats office, would you just say "Yeah, lol, I do fraud on welfare!". Any statistics about this would never be even close to reality.

 

[empty vessel]

I disagree with the basic premise that everyone who contributes nothing deserves compensation, indefinitely.

You don't actually, unless you believe that society ought to leave people who are born with disabilities out on the street to starve and die. In truth, you do believe that some people deserve compensation for nothing. So you should start from there and work out what you really believe at a higher level of specificity.

 

[Seeds]

The way I was raised, I wouldn't call that "a woman who don't deserve it". My mom had a situation where she was left there alone with no help, with 3 children.

This is a really different situation than, say, a guy with good health, 18 years old, no children, who apply for welfare and stay on it his whole life.

It's a different situation for you. Some would argue that your mom shouldn't have had three kids if she then could find herself in a situation in which she couldn't take care of them.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I wonder how many jobs or at least hours were lost due to automated checkouts at retail chains like Walmarts.

 

[Hellraizah]

Besides your cousin (gee you certainly seem to know a lot of direct family members and friends of friends who are perfect anecdotes of welfare abuse!) do you have any actual statistics on how common this sort of abuse is?

Here's all the stats you need about welfare in Quebec, straight from the government. Sorry, I don't think the document was translated to english.

http://www.mess.gouv.qc.ca/telecharger.asp?fichier=/publications/pdf/stat_052013.pdf

One stat presented here is pretty revealing :
76,7% cumulent 10 ans et plus de présence à l’aide financière de dernier recours;

That means that 76,7% of people of welfare here have been on it for more than 10 years.