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[mckmas8808]

He touches on the fact he has no team management skills and is more of a Lone Ranger. He knows he wouldn't be a good boss and wouldn't know how to get the best out of people except to lead by example.

He has many contacts in the industry and mentions many times he hasn't worked for a major publisher like EA or Activision so can't speak as an authority, but speaks anecdotally. Although he has been around a long time and throughout his time in the industry he cannot say that he has witnessed or been party to forced overtime.

No ONE persons view should be an official statement for an industry, but his view is as valid as anyone else's in the industry. I'd hold his a little higher than most blue check marks, probably more so because he isn't a little bitch.

But you said it all yourself.

1. He has no team management skills.
2. He's a Lone Ranger
3. He'd be a horrible boss.
4. He hasn't worked for a major publisher.
5. He's speaking anecdotally.

All those 5 points that you pointed out are perfect reasons to not listen to Carmack on this specific issue (Videogame Dev crunch and forced Overtime). Why should we all act like the whole videogame industry is lying?

 

[Noboru Wataya]

But you said it all yourself.

1. He has no team management skills.
2. He's a Lone Ranger
3. He'd be a horrible boss.
4. He hasn't worked for a major publisher.
5. He's speaking anecdotally.

All those 5 points that you pointed out are perfect reasons to not listen to Carmack on this specific issue (Videogame Dev crunch and forced Overtime). Why should we all act like the whole videogame industry is lying?

You don't have to be a good boss to know if your friends/colleagues are being forced overtime or slaved into crunch. This man has been in the tech industry longer some of these devs have been alive. His reserved statement on the matter is still valid and worth noting. I already said one persons opinion doesn't tell a whole story, but to ignore them because they go against the grain is ignorant. He never claimed dev stories are untrue, he claimed he has never witnessed them. With twitter and outrage culture the way it is currently, its always best (when on the outside looking in) to keep an open mind to all points of view. We shouldn't dismiss his experience in the industry just because he self admits to not having team management skills.

How are "we all" acting like the industry is lying?

 

[mckmas8808]

You don't have to be a good boss to know if your friends/colleagues are being forced overtime or slaved into crunch. This man has been in the tech industry longer some of these devs have been alive. His reserved statement on the matter is still valid and worth noting. I already said one persons opinion doesn't tell a whole story, but to ignore them because they go against the grain is ignorant. He never claimed dev stories are untrue, he claimed he has never witnessed them. With twitter and outrage culture the way it is currently, its always best (when on the outside looking in) to keep an open mind to all points of view. We shouldn't dismiss his experience in the industry just because he self admits to not having team management skills.

How are "we all" acting like the industry is lying?

If someone tells me "I didn't see it happen, but I wasn't a boss and I never work for companies like EA and Rockstar that are known to do it" then there's not much he can add to the topic of Developer crunch. It's best to put his words to the side, because he doesn't have the experience to talk about it. That's me respecting his words and also the words of the devs that have been abused financially.

 

[LordOfChaos]

We need a version where Joe is cut out from the video xD

Full, unadulterated Carmack bliss.

Great episode, by the way. I love how passionate he is. Plus, he loves Ferrari.

It's practically already like that lol, bring up practically any topic and Carmack goes "well that's kind of interesting, [deep dive into topic]", it's great.

 

[Noboru Wataya]

If someone tells me "I didn't see it happen, but I wasn't a boss and I never work for companies like EA and Rockstar that are known to do it" then there's not much he can add to the topic of Developer crunch. It's best to put his words to the side, because he doesn't have the experience to talk about it. That's me respecting his words and also the words of the devs that have been abused financially.

He has years of experience in and around people within the industry, but he isnt a boss so he should be ignored? Are you serious? How many negative stories from devs are from managers and bosses specifically? You are only willing to accept anecdotes that lean one way and put blinkers on to anything contradictory. You would think in all the years he has been in the tech business he would be able to say "I have heard from friends but never witnessed it myself first hand". This is in itself important to note. Maybe the problem isn't as widespread through the industry and comes down to specific teams in certain studios. Again I am not saying it doesn't happen, I am just pointing out that you are fishing for reasons to discredit his 30+ years of insider knowledge.

His word carries a lot more weight than blue check millennial's and "anonymous sources" who demand a cushy office job in the fast moving entertainment/tech business.

 

[GamesAreFun]

His word carries a lot more weight than blue check millennial's and "anonymous sources" who demand a cushy office job in the fast moving entertainment/tech business.

Wishing to work less than 80 hours in a week is "demanding a cushy office job"? That's certainly one way to spin it.

I'm probably biased as I belong to a Union, but I think as a strong character he drastically understimates the pressure to conform when the expectation is for extreme overtime. And once you're in a job, you can't easily quit due to financial or family commitments. But as someone who owned 2 Ferrari's by the time he was 24, Carmack might not understand that pressure...

After reading "Masters Of Doom" I thought Carmack was extremely talented but a bit of a dick, and this interview didn't change my opinion.

 

[mckmas8808]

He has years of experience in and around people within the industry, but he isnt a boss so he should be ignored? Are you serious? How many negative stories from devs are from managers and bosses specifically? You are only willing to accept anecdotes that lean one way and put blinkers on to anything contradictory. You would think in all the years he has been in the tech business he would be able to say "I have heard from friends but never witnessed it myself first hand". This is in itself important to note. Maybe the problem isn't as widespread through the industry and comes down to specific teams in certain studios. Again I am not saying it doesn't happen, I am just pointing out that you are fishing for reasons to discredit his 30+ years of insider knowledge.

His word carries a lot more weight than blue check millennial's and "anonymous sources" who demand a cushy office job in the fast moving entertainment/tech business.

Not ignored completely. Just on the topic of developer crunch. He's telling us directly and being honest. He doesn't have experience with it to really talk about it. He's trying to tell us that. I'm just deciding to listen to him. And why does it matter if the devs that thought about how bad crunch can be are millennials? Are you over 40 years old or something? Nobody is asking for a cushy job. People just want what they work for. Give these people their money and/or hire Executives and Leads that can properly manage a project.

That's not asking for too much.

 

[Noboru Wataya]

Not ignored completely. Just on the topic of developer crunch. He's telling us directly and being honest. He doesn't have experience with it to really talk about it. He's trying to tell us that. I'm just deciding to listen to him. And why does it matter if the devs that thought about how bad crunch can be are millennials? Are you over 40 years old or something? Nobody is asking for a cushy job. People just want what they work for. Give these people their money and/or hire Executives and Leads that can properly manage a project.

That's not asking for too much.

We are discussing your ignoring a viewpoint from an industry veteran because ... he isn't a boss of a team? No one is saying staff shouldn't be paid. No one is saying projects shouldn't be managed properly. He doesn't have experience to talk about it first hand, but he has went on to say he hasn't heard anything like the Kotakus and Polygons publish from any dev studio he has been in or people he has worked with or known. I'm sure that covers a lot of people in 30+ years. But sure, that means nothing?

 

[mckmas8808]

We are discussing your ignoring a viewpoint from an industry veteran because ... he isn't a boss of a team? No one is saying staff shouldn't be paid. No one is saying projects shouldn't be managed properly. He doesn't have experience to talk about it first hand, but he has went on to say he hasn't heard anything like the Kotakus and Polygons publish from any dev studio he has been in or people he has worked with or known. I'm sure that covers a lot of people in 30+ years. But sure, that means nothing?

Yes, that means nothing to me. Correct! Because on this issue, Carmack isn't going around doing journalism or investigating video game developer crunch. It's not his job, nor his purview. We've had other people to do that and they've done a good job reporting it. And other devs have done a great job telling their stories about the downsides of the industry and how crunch can destroy a family or someone's spirit to stay in the industry.

 

[nightfly]

Can someone explain why the idiots on reeeeeeeeeesetra want to always crucify Joe Rogaan?

 

[socksfelloff]

Can someone explain why the idiots on reeeeeeeeeesetra want to always crucify Joe Rogaan?

He thinks it's okay for men to be men

On topic I loved the Podcast with Carmack. Him saying " I think everyone needs to put their all into something and still fail" was very profound and something I fully agree with.

His opinion on crunch seems to be a divisive one but one I agree with. If you're truly passionate about what you're doing the hours don't matter. You will eat sleep and breath that shit and let it consume you and through that Greatness happens. It doesn't matter if it's game dev or a sport etc. Are some game devs doing this? Absolutely and as players we enjoy a richer experience because of it but I'm sure there's tons who are just collecting a paycheck doing something trivial like making grass for the next call a dooty and would much rather be at home.

 

[12Goblins]

Loved Carmack's enthusiasm. I would say Joe understood what Carmack was talking about 40% of the time

 

[pr0cs]

Why should we all act like the whole videogame industry is lying?

When did it become the "whole video game industry"? Quite frankly crunch time exists for most software development not just gaming and his point was the if you're passionate about your craft, certainly artistic craft then you can expect it to envelop your life.
The problem is that in today's world of participation trophies for everyone no one wants to put in the hard effort to make a name for themself. They want to instantly be paid like a star with nothing behind their name or craft, the want the world but only if it means that they work the 9-5 and go home.
To reach the next level or to gain some cred you're going to have to suck it up and put in those fucked up hours for a while. Anyone who has spent any time developing software knows this.

 

[Bolivar687]

I don't think programming is appropriate for unionization, and people getting into professional creative endeavors should be proactively throwing themselves into their work for long hours. But most games today aren't Quake or Final Fantasy. The focus-tested vanilla games we're getting today really should find a more manageable way of making them for the sake of their employees health.

I'm not going to fault mckmas8808 for taking Carmack's musings with a grain of salt. Dude hasn't made a relevant game in decades.

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

I don't think programming is appropriate for unionization, and people getting into professional creative endeavors should be proactively throwing themselves into their work for long hours. But most games today aren't Quake or Final Fantasy. The focus-tested vanilla games we're getting today really should find a more manageable way of making them for the sake of their employees health.

I'm not going to fault mckmas8808 for taking Carmack's musings with a grain of salt. Dude hasn't made a relevant game in decades.

Nah, he's just one of the major players in the world of VR instead.
I think part of the problem these days is that too many games are treated as products to be assembled on a virtual assembly line, rather than the collective artistic expression of the developers. It's kinda hard to proactively throw yourself into your work if you're not passionate about it.

 

[manfestival]

The conversation got waaaaay too deep here about John. GEEEZ
I enjoyed the episode. It was just nice to see someone being so positive and pure about the game industry

 

[MrCunningham]

Loved Carmack's enthusiasm. I would say Joe understood what Carmack was talking about 40% of the time

That's not a bad record. Considering that most people don't really know what John Carmack is ever talking about. Joe Rogan is a legitimate fan of Quake though, you can tell he was happy to talk to John Carmack. Pretty cool.

4. He hasn't worked for a major publisher.

he was part of Zenimax for a short stint before he left ID. But that is only because Id Software was sold to Zenimax. But John Carmack didn't really stay around while they owned the company.

Dude hasn't made a relevant game in decades.

John Carmack was never really a game designer, though. He was always on the technical side of game development, generally credited as a lead programmer, or technical director. Even one of Id Software less critically received games like Rage was still a technical marvel for 2011. But I think what did Carmack in was the long development times of games like Doom 3 and Rage. I think he got bored of waiting around to start Id's next project and just jumped on board VR. John Carmack has been doing some innovative things at Oculus. john Carmack has always been a tech guy.

I think the game that Carmack had the most involvement in as a director, was Quake III. Which was simplified down to the most basic elements of Quake. John stripped away the single player campaign and only focused on the multiplayer aspect. Carmack is a minimalist as a game developer.

 

[GeraldT]

Nah, he's just one of the major players in the world of VR instead.
I think part of the problem these days is that too many games are treated as products to be assembled on a virtual assembly line, rather than the collective artistic expression of the developers. It's kinda hard to proactively throw yourself into your work if you're not passionate about it.

I love what Carmack has done and is doing, but even he mentioned how he was not a part of the modern big game culture that has tainted the industries image as a fair and good workplace.

Indies that really get to make their games will be much happier doing crunch than folks at the big studios doing other folk's visions. There are some really horrible stories out there from folks that suffered through it because the wanted to make it into the industry and it seemed like a must. I am all for unions for big studios.

 

[Poordevil]

Wow!.... There are not many people in this world who can sit at a table, speak their mind and leave me as impressed as John Carmack.

 

[mckmas8808]

When did it become the "whole video game industry"? Quite frankly crunch time exists for most software development not just gaming and his point was the if you're passionate about your craft, certainly artistic craft then you can expect it to envelop your life.
The problem is that in today's world of participation trophies for everyone no one wants to put in the hard effort to make a name for themself. They want to instantly be paid like a star with nothing behind their name or craft, the want the world but only if it means that they work the 9-5 and go home.
To reach the next level or to gain some cred you're going to have to suck it up and put in those fucked up hours for a while. Anyone who has spent any time developing software knows this.

So how about when someone works during crunch and puts in 16 hours a day........... the company PAYS THEM OVERTIME!?!? Is that too much to ask? Or is that too participation trophy-like for you?

Plus, we've been giving out participation trophies since the 80s.