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John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare

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lifa-cobex

lifa-cobex

Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAK0KXEpF8U

I've always respected this actor for his parts in comedy and as a person.
I found it quit interesting to hear his views on PC in today's society. Especially from an actor who has been apart in "controversial" films and series for the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ni559bHXDg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python's_Life_of_Brian#Appearances_in_other_media

As someone who believes in pushing the borders of speech that breaks comfort zones(not forcefully), It's kinda odd to look back on what was classed as offensive or too much for the effects of most films accounts to nothing (that i'm aware off)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_banned_in_the_United_Kingdom

I'm quit interested in looking back on the political correctness of today and what my thoughts will be.
 
S

Savitar

Member
That makes me think of Demolition Man's future where everything you say and do is monitored, swear? You get fined. I can only imagine how much you'd get punished for saying something that isn't PC at that point.

Also, yes, sea shells. We know.
 
F

fester

Banned
To anyone complaining about "political correctness" I want to ask: What's so wrong about not being a rude (and often racist/sexist) asshole to other people?
 
A

akira28

Member
people so worried about pc, but were just fine with "be a dick to everyone because that's how the world works"?

that used to be how engy-lund was basically run. born into your station and that's where you live until you die.
 
S

Servbot24

Banned
fester said:
To anyone complaining about "political correctness" I want to ask: What's so wrong about not being a rude (and often racist/sexist) asshole to other people?
Click to expand...

Honestly I think it's mainly that people don't want to have to feel like they're a bad person when they're making jokes

However jokes do affect the people around you, and if you do things that make people feel bad, well, guess what.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
"Politically correct" is not a phrase I'd use to describe Ingsoc, at least not the way John Cleese means it.

But I guess Orwell's the go-to guy for dystopian doomsayers.
 
lifa-cobex

lifa-cobex

Member
fester said:
To anyone complaining about "political correctness" I want to ask: What's so wrong about not being a rude (and often racist/sexist) asshole to other people?
Click to expand...

Because one persons view of something will be different from the another persons view.

Rough example i guess..

Persona A: makes joke.
Person B: That was funny
Person C: that was sexist/ racist etc etc

Person A: It was a joke.
Person C: words can have an effect
Person B: Yea it made me laugh.

It's better to have it and debate about it than to remove it entirely
 
G

Gutek

Member
fester said:
To anyone complaining about "political correctness" I want to ask: What's so wrong about not being a rude (and often racist/sexist) asshole to other people?
Click to expand...

1. Not being rude to someone, somewhere, somehow is impossible. The whole idea is an illusion.
2. Who draws the line on what is and what is not rude?
 
E

Etrian Oddity

Member
fester said:
To anyone complaining about "political correctness" I want to ask: What's so wrong about not being a rude (and often racist/sexist) asshole to other people?
Click to expand...
tumblr_nwlu5sJV6n1r4o9xho1_500.jpg
.
 
S

Somnid

Member
fester said:
To anyone complaining about "political correctness" I want to ask: What's so wrong about not being a rude (and often racist/sexist) asshole to other people?
Click to expand...

This is the error in thinking in a nutshell. Nothing is wrong with that as an ideal but the devil is the implementation. Who decides what is right and wrong to say? Who decides how people get punished for not falling in line? A mob mentality is very rarely a nuanced thing and very often a dangerous thing.
 
Hale-XF11

Hale-XF11

Member
Mimosa97 said:
Gaf sadly isn't the right place to talk about this.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's unfortunate. All it takes is a small disagreement or misunderstanding to get banned. Best to keep one's thoughts on sensitive subjects to themselves unless you're in the hivemind.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
akira28 said:
people so worried about pc, but were just fine with "be a dick to everyone because that's how the world works"?

that used to be how engy-lund was basically run. born into your station and that's where you live until you die.
Click to expand...
The discussion is more nuanced than that and you know it.

This straw man is getting tired.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
lifa-cobex said:
Because one persons view of something will be different from the another persons view.

Rough example i guess..

Persona A: makes joke.
Person B: That was funny
Person C: that was sexist/ racist etc etc

Person A: It was a joke.
Person C: words can have an effect
Person B: Yea it made me laugh.

It's better to have it and debate about it than to remove it entirely
Click to expand...

If the joke is "lol them blacks sure are stupid right guys?" then yeah, you deserve to get an earful.

"Political correctness" is a thing that isn't even a real thing. Nobody on the left goes around thinking "I have to be Politically Correct (tm)!". It's a phrase used by people who don't want to confront their own bigotries and would rather pretend that the world isn't changing and that people who have historically been marginalized shouldn't be able to criticize them or make them feel uncomfortable.
 
T

TwEE-N-Toast

Banned
Well when he is right he is right. But a lot of people here will toss out the "rich old white man, who is mad he can't say problematic stuff"

You either get in line or you're into black face to some folks here. It's scary how they think.
 
J

Jebusman

Banned
sphagnum said:
"Political correctness" is a thing that isn't even a real thing.
Click to expand...

Aside from this sentence contradicting itself, yes, PC is a real thing. Going out of their way to be offended at something, on behalf of someone else who has yet to even be decided if they were offended or not, because you feel that you have to be a "morally good person" and defend those people, regardless of whether or not they need to, or WANT to be defended, is what PC culture is all about.

Always has been. Always will be.
 
P

PBY

Banned
TwEE-N-Toast said:
Well when he is right he is right. But a lot of people here will toss out the "rich old white man, who is mad he can't say problematic stuff"

You either get in line or you're into black face to some folks here. It's scary how they think.
Click to expand...
Uhhhh what is he right about?

Also just what?
 
A

anaron

Member
I think what Cleese is getting at is the indication of context and intent being totally disregarded.

Some people can't even get past just the surface level of offensive terms and words despite clearly not being the butt of a joke.
 
P

PfantzyPantz

Member
lifa-cobex said:
Because one persons view of something will be different from the another persons view.

Rough example i guess..

Persona A: makes joke.
Person B: That was funny
Person C: that was sexist/ racist etc etc

Person A: It was a joke.
Person C: words can have an effect
Person B: Yea it made me laugh.

It's better to have it and debate about it than to remove it entirely
Click to expand...

That's the thing, Person A who makes the joke ends up getting offended that Person C was offended, it's rare to get a debate because Person A almost always cries censorship or how it's impossible to tell a joke these days, even though he just did.
As always, you're allowed to make the joke, just as we're allowed to criticize it.
Problem being the 'anti-PC' crowd tends to believe that everything is above criticism except for whatever they deem fit, and they'll get whiny, angry, and defensive if you dare ask a question.

And yeah, that google extension makes the thread title funny.
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
sphagnum said:
If the joke is "lol them blacks sure are stupid right guys?" then yeah, you deserve to get an earful.

"Political correctness" is a thing that isn't even a real thing. Nobody on the left goes around thinking "I have to be Politically Correct (tm)!". It's a phrase used by people who don't want to confront their own bigotries and would rather pretend that the world isn't changing and that people who have historically been marginalized shouldn't be able to criticize them or make them feel uncomfortable.
Click to expand...

Nailed it.
 
F

Funyarinpa

Member
My opinions regarding offensive jokes:

I think it's a matter of context. If no one who heard the joke is offended, then it is not offensive. Intent is the deciding factor in something's offensiveness.

Regarding free speech:

There must not be any legal punishment for any sort of speech whatsoever and complete free speech in all public places. I personally encourage free speech in private spaces as well, but I can respect any such limitations that are already in place and will adhere to them.

I WILL try to be politically correct as a matter of simple courtesy, but it is a privilege and not a right, and thus, I believe myself to have the right to cause discomfort to others if I need (or want enough) to say something that necessitates said discomfort. This applies to me too: People have the right to be as offensive to me as they want in speech, but may choose to restrain their speech to a certain extent as a matter of courtesy.

Being offensive isn't inherently a bad thing. It's not enough grounds on which to shoot an argument down.

Not being offensive for the sake of being offensive is enough.

edit:

1984 is shown as a rather simplistic analogy in that it's just "Step just a little out of line and it's your neck."- That's where the similarities begin and end, and as such, is not a very successful parallel to excessive to detrimental/extreme political correctness.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
anaron said:
I think what Cleese is getting at is the indication of context and intent being totally disregarded.

Some people can't even get past just the surface level of offensive terms and words despite clearly not being the butt of a joke.
Click to expand...

This is what he's saying. There have been cases of comedians getting shit on because people didn't get the joke, we've had a few threads like that over the years. It's good that we're being kinder and more considerate of our language, but we do still need to consider context.
 
legacyzero

legacyzero

Banned
fester said:
To anyone complaining about "political correctness" I want to ask: What's so wrong about not being a rude (and often racist/sexist) asshole to other people?
Click to expand...
Because people shouldnt have to walk on eggshells all day with the feat of even remotely offending somebody with even the tiniest thing.

Example: I have a leadership position at my place of employment. They train us not to say words like "Whiteboard", "blackboard", " Flipchart", and other things because somebody was offended by them once.

Now, as a member of management, I feel like im always under excessive scrutiny.

I was once reported because I said the word "pornagraphy" in the classroom, because it directly related to the subject.

Its that bad.
 
A

aeolist

Banned
not sure how different the situation is in england but you can get back to me on PC culture ruining things when laws start getting passed that chill speech.

otherwise it's just people freely reacting to things other people freely said publicly. if enough people think it's bad and it gets a big enough negative reaction then less of that speech will exist in the future. this is the way it's always worked.
 
D

Dongs Macabre

aka Daedalos42
Censorship is completely different than political correctness, at least nowadays. If you think PC culture is going to lead to 1984, maybe some thicker skin will help you with that persecution complex.

Etrian Oddity said:
tumblr_nwlu5sJV6n1r4o9xho1_500.jpg
.
Click to expand...

If an Orwellian dystopia means I won't have to see shitty South Park memes anymore then sign me up.
 
J

Jebusman

Banned
anaron said:
I think what Cleese is getting at is the indication of context and intent being totally disregarded.

Some people can't even get past just the surface level of offensive terms and words despite clearly not being the butt of a joke.
Click to expand...

Read: Half of GAF. I don't think I ever want to wade into a satire thread again because of how much people are determined to read/see something at face value rather than spend 5 seconds figuring out where the joke actually points towards.
 
A

anaron

Member
B-Dubs said:
This is what he's saying. There have been cases of comedians getting shit on because people didn't get the joke, we've had a few threads like that over the years. It's good that we're being kinder and more considerate of our language, but we do still need to consider context.
Click to expand...
Absolutely.
 
lifa-cobex

lifa-cobex

Member
sphagnum said:
If the joke is "lol them blacks sure are stupid right guys?" then yeah, you deserve to get an earful.

"Political correctness" is a thing that isn't even a real thing. Nobody on the left goes around thinking "I have to be Politically Correct (tm)!". It's a phrase used by people who don't want to confront their own bigotries and would rather pretend that the world isn't changing and that people who have historically been marginalized shouldn't be able to criticize them or make them feel uncomfortable.
Click to expand...

I would defiantly say there is consequences to saying certain things in this day an age..
http://therationalists.org/2016/01/28/richard-dawkins-vs-atheism/
 
A

aeolist

Banned
Jebusman said:
Read: Half of GAF. I don't think I ever want to wade into a satire thread again because of how much people are determined to read/see something at face value rather than spend 5 seconds figuring out where the joke actually points towards.
Click to expand...

satire threads are just as thick with people deliberately talking past valid criticism and refusing to understand that others think it's shitty and doesn't accomplish anything good

not all satire is created equal
 
E

El Topo

Member
Of all the things that can lead to an Orwellian nightmare, political correctness has to be very close to the bottom.
 
S

Sushi Nao

Member
So marginalized groups don't want to continue to be marginalized by casual slurs and overall systemic abuse, and they're pushing back against that.

However, some of these movements are young, and they're still defining boundaries, forward and backward. There are also contextual issues to each incident.

Defining cultural boundaries is a process. Saying "PC culture is out of hand" is a denial of this process. The conversation will happen whether you want it to or not, so people might as well get versed in the logistics of it.
 
S

Secret Fawful

Member
ClosingADoor said:
Because it is not up to you to decide what is rude and what is not.
Click to expand...

It is the responsibility of every human being, yes, every single human being, to stand up for and ensure the rule of kindness and empathy toward one's fellow human. Unfortunately, most people fail at this responsibility. It's not that hard to reason for yourself what is rude. Ask yourself what you wouldn't want others to say to you, and don't say it to other people. There are plenty of people out there with an empathy problem who either can't or won't reason this out, though.
 
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