Jorok Goldblade
Member
You don't even need to take him to the Marvel Universe. He'd be dead in under a year in the Arrowverse
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Joker appears in the Marvel Universe, how long does he last? (Details inside)
- Thread starter Lightning_Roller
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Goddamn it every time this gets brought up all the cringe comes flooding back to me.
echoshifting
Banned
With Captain Hydra? He's still plotting world domination in the pages of Captain America: Steve Rogers. Rumor has it this will
all lead to the big summer event next year
BKatastrophe
Member
I wasn't agreeing
Razgriz-Specter
Member
bigboss370
Member
/dead
The Silver
Member
Currently the best villain in Marvel
Manmademan
Member
yep. That issue of SR Cap where it turns out that
cap is responsible for just about all of the bullshittery of civil war II, and is playing both sides to keep them from finding out about the rise of Hydra and his involvement
Azure Dream
Member
That's the Joker I've grown to hate. Batman spends his entire life since childhood training both physically and mentally, and Joker just magically has a similar brilliant mind, AND can hold his own in a fight, AND heals faster than normal?
I just read The Killing Joke a few months ago, and for all the talk about that story, I was surprised, and pleased, Joker wasn't Bullshit Tier at the end of it. Super Magical Karate Joker has gotten really boring.
TheKingOfPain
Member
On Earth-616, Wolverine is dead.
Manmademan
Member
LiveFromKyoto
Member
I'm still not buying it. Like, is the premise of this thread that everybody gets to keep their plot armour except the Joker? Because if so, that's a pointless argument. But if Castle doesn't have plot armour, he's just a regular guy in a scary shirt and the Joker lures him someplace & gasses him.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Well, I think the entire point is that Joker is able to match wits with Batman. It's one of the reasons he's such a good foil: While Batman puts his brilliance and resources towards bettering himself and doing good, Joker's equally brilliant mind is wasted on a chaotic, petty psychopath with no real goals beyond murdering people.
That said, I do agree that New 52 went too far, especially with how hard they tried to make him "scary" while completely dropping the "funny" part. I see people talk about how much they liked the GCPD attack scene in Death of the Family, but I don't think it's nearly as good as a similar scene in Gotham Central where Joker goes on a shooting spree inside a police station while screaming, "Oh my god, somebody call the cops!"
Manmademan
Member
Street level heroes?
Zero. he never gets that far.
Let me explain. The OP has painted Joker into a hilariously terrible position.
Joker is a threat where he is, because DC has him running around Gotham, where pretty much no one but Batman and friends operates. Marvel doesn't have fictional cities, and as such nearly EVERYONE hangs out in New York. Even alt-universe heroes (Spider-Gwen) decide to come there for brunch on weekends. The place is crawling with superpowers in a way that Gotham isn't.
Now this is the part where Joker fucks up. NYC is not only full of heroes (and there are a LOT of these) it's also full of...crime bosses.
Crime bosses who do not like people stepping on their turf, and are very, very efficient at getting rid of potential rivals. As soon as he draws ANY kind of attention to himself, Joker is going to end up on the bad side of:
Black Cat/Felicia Hardy (former antihero, currently a crime boss)
Hammerhead
_(Earth-616)_from_Amazing_Spider-Man_Vol_1_575.JPG/revision/latest?cb=20120128214336)
Tombstone
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Kingpin
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The Owl
All of these are extremely nasty customers, and all save Kingpin are powered- but Kingpin is so brutal that it doesn't even matter. Most of the powered and non powered villain community in NYC works for them. What happens when you attract their attention? Ask Miles Morales. He drew attention to himself as "another spider man" which those people were less than thrilled with.
In a matter of hours they shot him out of the sky with heat seeking missiles, dragged him to a warehouse and beat the tar out of him. Joker won't last half as long. Gag toys and gas will only get you so far, especially when they've all seen that before from *counts* 1...2...3...4..5...6? 7? Different variants of insane goblin?
The local crime lords will have joker in pieces at the bottom of the east river long before the heroes bother to get themselves out of bed.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Just like they've taken out Punisher?
You act as though Joker and Batman are the only two people in Gotham. When in practice the reason it's mostly devoid of heroes is because it's such a horrible place that you can't take a piss without some random supervillain trying to murder you, so they've stopped bothering. Joker already deals with all this.
Joker's extremely smart and he's got that no inhibitions crazy strength. He'd do better than most people imagine, this is a guy who fights Batman on a regular basis.
He will adapt once he sees what he's up against and the thugs he works with are probably trained by Taskmaster or at least know what kind of tech they need before causing trouble in New York, they'll know what's up. It's not like Marvel doesn't have a bunch of non-super powered villains running around. He'll just need to up his tech game, which is pretty easy in Marvel territory.
If anything the premise of him starting a huge attack in completely foreign territory in two days doesn't really fit his M.O. It's like all those times where you have to reduce Batman to "Jumped in an alley with no prep and blindfolded by Spider-man!" to make it work.
Also you aren't taking into account there are Marvel Heroes who will abstain from killing if not necessary as well. They don't know the Joker's history, he's just some new nut case right now. It will take a few times before they are pushed to "end him" territory and that would just play into his hands.
Someone needs to snipe him quick or he just grows in danger like a cancer. Frank could do it, but will he be the first responder? Of course not.
He will adapt once he sees what he's up against and the thugs he works with are probably trained by Taskmaster or at least know what kind of tech they need before causing trouble in New York, they'll know what's up. It's not like Marvel doesn't have a bunch of non-super powered villains running around. He'll just need to up his tech game, which is pretty easy in Marvel territory.
If anything the premise of him starting a huge attack in completely foreign territory in two days doesn't really fit his M.O. It's like all those times where you have to reduce Batman to "Jumped in an alley with no prep and blindfolded by Spider-man!" to make it work.
Also you aren't taking into account there are Marvel Heroes who will abstain from killing if not necessary as well. They don't know the Joker's history, he's just some new nut case right now. It will take a few times before they are pushed to "end him" territory and that would just play into his hands.
Someone needs to snipe him quick or he just grows in danger like a cancer. Frank could do it, but will he be the first responder? Of course not.
Manmademan
Member
Kingpin beat the holy hell out of punisher during civil war II.
Punisher tried taking out kingpin, failed, got his ass beaten severely and thrown out a window. All of those crime bosses have been around for YEARS, and there are very good reasons why Punisher hasn't done anything about them.
Uh, I act as if Gotham isn't the center of DC's superhuman community, because it isn't. Batman is based out of Gotham. Superman is in metropolis. Flash is in Keystone city, etc.
Marvel piles everyone into NYC and just says "fuck it." It is a LOT harder to get away with anything because the concentration is simply higher. Virtually everyone operates in marvel NYC and nowhere else. Even the Guardians of the Galaxy are currently sitting in NYC. And they have the entire Galaxy to use. In the rare cases where someone goes to LA (Daredevil) or Philly (Flash Venom) they're back in a month.
This is what I tried to point out to you. No one will work with Joker because NYC already has several EXTREMELY NASTY crimebosses in it that do not like competition. Everyone already works for Fisk, Lincoln, Hammerhead, etc. Why would they go work for Joker? It's a death sentence. Newcomers who show up and draw attention to themselves get murdered, and quickly. Civil War: Kingpin goes into this.
Parker spider man is currently the only one with a hard "no killing" clause. Everyone else doesn't really have those reservations anymore.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Its not 616, of course, but that's what would have happened to if Kingpin didn't have plot armor.
Which is the point. Joker would survive for the same reason Kingpin and Punisher haven't been greased by the bazillion superheroes rubbing around NYC, and for the same reason Joker hasn't been greased by the bazillion supervillains running around Gotham.
Like a guy who posted above said, the question assumes that everybody but the Joker gets to keep their plot armor. Otherwise, he's no better or worse off than he is in the DCU, or worse off than all the non-powered Marvel characters all the powered characters ignore for whatever reason.
Manmademan
Member
Its not 616, of course, but that's what would have happened to if Kingpin didn't have plot armor.
it's an alt-universe "what if." we could post those all day.
Kingpin hasn't been "greased" because he has vast networks built up over a number of years. So do the others. Joker has none of this, being dropped into NYC overnight. In-Universe Otto Octavius (as the superior spiderman) dismantled Kingpin's empire and it took an entire army including giant spider robots to pull it off. Kingpin still lived through it.
plot armor or not, he's in a bad situation, since he has no funds, no street cred, and no infrastructure. This is the problem.
Taken on his own he's WORSE off, since at least in the DCU Joker is a known name with street cred, and isn't competing with anywhere NEAR as many people.
It's like saying Joker wouldn't be any worse off if you moved every single hero and villain group that exists in the DCU into gotham to hunt him down, removed joker of all his money, and caused everyone to forget who he is outside of a guy that really likes clown makeup.
He'd be dead in a week.
"No plot armor" is a nonsense stipulation, because everything that happens in comics happens because the writer thought it would be cool or interesting. If Joker survives something in a comic he logically shouldn't, and you thought that was a good comic, the writer succeeded. If you thought it was a bad comic, the writer failed. "No plot armor" is just you saying "Joker vs Marvel universe but all the Joker comics I didn't like are non-canon". What is anyone even supposed to do with this information?
You know what Joker would do without plot armor? Nothing. He wouldn't even stand there doing nothing, forever staring into space. He wouldn't even exist to begin with, because plot and the armor it provides are one and the same.
Here, let me try:
"The Joker arrives in the Marvel universe for reasons I won't go into. I don't care which one and what its designated number is. Probably the current main one, whichever one that is. It's not important. Five minutes later he's killed in a freak Hulk rampage accident."
There, I only let him live five minutes. Was there plot armor? Yes, because me writing that he survives five minutes in the Marvel universe and then dies are by definition both the plot and the thing that prevents him dying for five minutes.
You know what Joker would do without plot armor? Nothing. He wouldn't even stand there doing nothing, forever staring into space. He wouldn't even exist to begin with, because plot and the armor it provides are one and the same.
Here, let me try:
"The Joker arrives in the Marvel universe for reasons I won't go into. I don't care which one and what its designated number is. Probably the current main one, whichever one that is. It's not important. Five minutes later he's killed in a freak Hulk rampage accident."
There, I only let him live five minutes. Was there plot armor? Yes, because me writing that he survives five minutes in the Marvel universe and then dies are by definition both the plot and the thing that prevents him dying for five minutes.
Huw_Dawson
Member
It'd be a neat storyline involving Batman attempting to get Joker back from the alternate universe, whilst Joker terrorizes the street-level heroes of NYC.
Manmademan
Member
Why would Batman want him back??
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
More or less yes. Outside of Spider-Man I don't think the rest care
Yeah but Future Franklin Richards from earth something or another would have stop superman by teleporting him to some made up dimension made of kryptonite
Or in true marvel fashion have a Superman Buster Armor made of kryptonite
Tony would claim he made it just incase Blue Marvel turned or some stupidness
BKatastrophe
Member
Something something deadly Joker toxin that they need Joker to fix
Manmademan
Member
There's an 11 year old girl walking around on Marvel Earth that could wipe the universe and bring it back pretty much instantaneously.
God help him if Nighthawk notices him. That guy is "hey, what if we made Batman Black....aaaaaaaaaaanddd kind of a serial killer?"
BKatastrophe
Member
Hey now.
He only kills racists and corrupt cops. And also people who use gentrification to boost their real estate company's sales. And serial killers.
He kills a lot of people.
I'm pretty sure Wonder Woman brought it up at some point.
With only him having no plot armor? He dies pretty much as soon as he tries to start by shit, either taken out by another villain, antihero, or just shot by the cops.
With no one having plot armor? NYC gets put under lockdown/quarantine within a week due to the insane number of civilian/non-civilian casualties. Alternatively, NYC would become a warzone, and continue to be that way until the vast majority of heroes/villains are killed, along with millions of civilians being killed or injured.
With no one having plot armor? NYC gets put under lockdown/quarantine within a week due to the insane number of civilian/non-civilian casualties. Alternatively, NYC would become a warzone, and continue to be that way until the vast majority of heroes/villains are killed, along with millions of civilians being killed or injured.
TheRedSnifit
Member
I mean, that pretty much supports my point. There's no room for traditional crime and non-powered villains (or heroes) in a world where your enemies may be able to benchpress tanks and survive nukes. "Vast networks" can't protect you from the likes of Ghost Rider.
Kingpin doesn't survive because he's rich, or because he has a bunch of goons, or because of his networks, he survives because most superhumans ignore him and those he does fight are content with throwing him in prison, assuming they don't just beat him up and leave him with a stern warning. Joker wouldn't survive if the superheroes and supervillains actually decided to team up and kill him (although he would absolutely fair better than Kingpin, being an immortal superhuman with genius-level intellect), but I fail to see why they'd do so when they're perfectly willing to tolerate people with vastly higher bodycounts (since Joker's only been around for a week).
So pretty much every DCU crossover? Him being a known quantity hinders more than helps him, since everybody, villain or hero, knows he's an unstable mass-murderer and not a garden-variety whacko who threatens people with whoopie cushions and squirty flowers.
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