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Jonathan Pie on the Manchester Bombing & Theresa May
- Thread starter Hux1ey
- Start date
gutter_trash
Banned
zealots still long nostaligically for the militarilistc expansionism and try to "relive the glory"
those are the nut jobs who try to re-inact those moments; the fondation of the religion being based on military expansion is mostyl to blame and its mindset
What role does Western Imperialism play? And is there a correlation between the rise of extremism and Western intervention in the Middle East? How do you explain such a surge?
gutter_trash
Banned
Islamic expansionism is the main cause of Christian Kingdoms taking up arms and forming alliances to retake their lands.
The Umayyad Caliphate was expanding into Europe taking over Christian territory.
The Crusades happened not because of Christianity but because Islam overstepped their bounds trying to take over Christian land.
I understand that recent history was about Western Imperilims and colonilamsi, I get it. That was wrong too.
But at the tension between both sides in the 7th and 8th Century was provoked by the Calphate's side not the Christian Kingdoms.
Well that was a pointless, boring video. Did he have a point? Because I totally lost it if he did. "I don't want to love, I want to be angry!!". Okay, cool, that's fine and understandable if that's how you want to live I guess, but what difference does that make to me? Or violent religious extremists for that matter? If you're going to stand on a soap-box and talk down on how the 'moment of silence folks' aren't really doing anything, perhaps you should have some sort of plan or hot take that isn't literally just as pointless as the one you're whining down at.
I thought his election video was alright, but he just seemed like a goob in this one.
I thought his election video was alright, but he just seemed like a goob in this one.
I think he wants to cut out the root of the problem, like what gave him these views.
Pie on people to wake up, that these types of attacks is linked to religion instead of ignoring that link. How else are you going to find the cause if your not willing to discuss the root issue.
And he doesn't like the notion of people carry on as normal as a way to to let the terrorist not win, he rather be angry instead and do something about it, for him this video.
His overall point I see him making is that people in power need to discuss and find a solution and not be afraid of offending people while in the process.
Like this thread is proof enough, any one that thinks he shouldn't have said that is why theirs a problem. No one wants to talk about religion and murder even though if you look at history, bad men have used it to gain their agendas.
Sensitive issues need more discussion not less.
I think people in the media and politicians ignore the issue because it could harm their career, and thats more important and its just easier to ignore it and carry on as normal.
Also any one else notice that
the "Honest" sign pointing down towards him LOL
This is his worst one and by quite a distance. Usually he's spot on but I don't think he is at all here, everything he says the left should be doing they are doing and have been for a while now.
Even his high energy was missing from this, I don't think he was totally into it and probably doesn't completely believe it either.
Even his high energy was missing from this, I don't think he was totally into it and probably doesn't completely believe it either.
I'm taking about recent history. Is there a correlation?
The answer is quite obviously yes. It's one of the primary causes.
Majukun
Member
*standing ovation*
This is a good video with seeing the cause and affects of trying to talk about the link between terrorism and religion, it doesn't matter whos right in this video but just talking about it, you risk a lot, and no one wants to do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYuHJ1mrsLI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYuHJ1mrsLI
End end to end encryption. Problem solved.
gutter_trash
Banned
amazing video, the truth is that the religion's spread is rooted in military expansionism
the guy on the right is 100% correct
Frozenprince
Banned
Ah good yet another "let's blame all Muslims" video.
Frozenprince
Banned
Repeating myself. But blaming all Muslims and making this about the nebulous abstract if "Islam" and not "clearly radicalized terror groups" which combined the world over don't even come out to 1% of total practitioners of Islam, is literally in ISIS's handbook.
This is what they want you to do, people.
This is what they want you to do, people.
This is worth reading on the man - http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2017/04/11/4651763.htm
You also seem to be grossly ignoring the impact foreign policy has had on the region. There are legitimate grievances and if you fail to even acknowledge that then there will be no solution.
Occupations, invasions, propping and installing dictators, sponsoring coups and so much more. All to keep hegemony in tact. And then after all that's said and done you have the gall to blame it solely on the militaristic aspects of the religion, bringing in historical references. Call me crazy, but that is absurdly naive. A complete foolish way to even attempt to understand why these things happen.
Ocarina_117
Banned
He didn't really say blame all muslims as people ITT are claiming he did. People will also use this video as a platform for 'lets blame Islam'. What I gathered from the video is that we need to have a discussion with the twisting of the ideologies.
The muslim community were not at fault for the attack this week, the did everything in their power to prevent it (his friends, his mosque etc).
Wasn't 100% behind him with this video, I knew from first viewing it would be his most divisive.
The muslim community were not at fault for the attack this week, the did everything in their power to prevent it (his friends, his mosque etc).
Wasn't 100% behind him with this video, I knew from first viewing it would be his most divisive.
Frozenprince
Banned
The crusades? Really?
Western imperialism is less than a full two decades removed from some areas.
And you're bringing up the fucking Crusades?
And folks wonder why the terrorists keep winning. Well, no, they don't actually, they allow them to.
Muslims do this because of terrible foreign policy. Look at the entire middle-east.
You can rant about their religion but that isn't going to change anything except for the majority of followers feeling persecuted and further separated.
A lot of muslims reported him to the authorities, including his mosque.
Religious terrorism became an all-encompassing phrase because of a reluctance to reconsider foreign policy.
You can rant about their religion but that isn't going to change anything except for the majority of followers feeling persecuted and further separated.
A lot of muslims reported him to the authorities, including his mosque.
Religious terrorism became an all-encompassing phrase because of a reluctance to reconsider foreign policy.
I do believe Islamic extremists still use the term "caliphate", so clearly they haven't forgotten.
Yeaaahhhh...
That's some Trump/AfD/Fron National-level of bullshit diet racism. "The brown muslim people have to step up their game!"
Well Jonathan, what about Breivik's attack on kids and teens a few years back? Why didn't the white community step in before?! What did YOU do to prevent that from happening?
That's some Trump/AfD/Fron National-level of bullshit diet racism. "The brown muslim people have to step up their game!"
Well Jonathan, what about Breivik's attack on kids and teens a few years back? Why didn't the white community step in before?! What did YOU do to prevent that from happening?
Frozenprince
Banned
Caliphate is not a solely historic term. Caliphate governments were not only the Umyyad. The word is equivalent to the word "Empire". The Ottomans were a Caliphate.
You're over reaching for nonsense.
So what if the term is still used? Does context matter?
Western imperialism has provided the platform and the excuse. You cannot deny that fact.
Frozenprince
Banned
We are watching the results of decades of allowing​ OPEC to dominate the region. Deposing countless Democratic governments for dictators, the wholesale destruction ofin state infrastructure in almost all of these nation States.
Hell the countries themselves are draw with borders that might as well have been at complete random.
But what about the crusades....
gutter_trash
Banned
it was a push back reaction to slow down their epxansionism.
Queen Isabella of Castile and King Ferdinand of Argon only succeeded by teaming up to finalize their Reconquista by 1492. It was a long process
Frozenprince
Banned
I have studied Mediterranean history, thank you.
Has absolutely nothing at all to do with the modern day or what's going on in the region, today. Less than nothing.
The guy on the left is in straight up denial. I was listening to the radio here in the UK over the past few days and there were several occasions where young British Muslim callers were emphatically stating that the ideology that powers ISIS has nothing, nothing to do with Islam. I don't understand how people can continue to make such absurd statements.
Frozenprince
Banned
Because it doesn't. They are a radical sect of insurgents.
It's like blaming Catholicism for Westboro.
Islam is not a catch all. There are numerous sects, offshoots and practices that differentiate it.
Just like Christianity.
Maybe instead of criticising how people grieve after attacks (like Pie is doing here) we should be asking why some British Muslims feel disenfranchised with the culture many of them were born into (2015, 'A third of Muslims say they feel under greater suspicion in the last few years').
Maybe we should examine how the blow-back of British, US & European intervention in the Middle-East & North Africa is affecting us in our home nations. How do we make sure that further generations of children in Islam assimilate with British/European/American culture? (2016, 'Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal')
Maybe we should examine how the blow-back of British, US & European intervention in the Middle-East & North Africa is affecting us in our home nations. How do we make sure that further generations of children in Islam assimilate with British/European/American culture? (2016, 'Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal')
In this case, yes, people around the perpetrator went to lengths to make law enforcement aware of their fears and suspicions but terror attacks get foiled regularly because of the intelligence community primarily, and a survey has shown that many British Muslims would NOT report someone showing signs they have terrorist ties, according to a survey, conducted on behalf the UKÂ’s Channel 4 in 2016.
Can you actually engage in the arguments put forward or will you continue looking back some 500-1000 years to understand the context behind the rise of extremism today?
If western countries didn't have an army that could rival the middle-east, and the middle east was bombing the west, invading countries left and right and orchestrating civil wars to install their own puppet governments, you can be damn sure "religious extremism" would make a comeback because they'd be heavily risking death. The Old Testament would probably be popularized among those who want to consider themselves martyrs.
It's self-justification but their actions are politically motivated.
It's self-justification but their actions are politically motivated.
Frozenprince
Banned
"Well you see when the Russian Empire integrated the Crimean Khanate into their empire it caused some immediate stress with the intransigent Ottoman Empire which was yet another in incidents that ultimately lead to a long, protracted series of wars over the Balkans and black sea across the next 2 centuries."
And that's why ISIS is bad.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
How exactly does he hope to achieve ending religious extremism? He never actually says more than "let's talk about it" which isn't going to do squat .
The ideology of ISIS is based on the scripture written in the Qu'ran - the book of Islam. It may be an unpalatable interpretation to more liberal-minded Muslims, but that doesn't mean it has nothing to do with Islam.
HighResTomato
Member
A lot of angry middle aged white men complaining about "I CAN'T SAY THIS ANYMORE without being challenged".
It all makes sense now.
jack_package_200
Banned
Muh freeze peach
gutter_trash
Banned
The root of scriptures includes its successes during its military expansion and exploits
Modern day literallists are all about following the founder's footsteps.
A literal reenactment
I completely agree. People are fickle and their circumstances will dictate how they interpret religion to begin with. You could write the most peaceful book in existence, but when faced with hardships, it's guaranteed that people will find more twisted ways at looking at it.
Hell, this very video is sort of an example of that effect. Because something terrible happened, people drastically shift in their principles. Emotions are powerful and people are often unwilling to budge when it comes to how they label themselves. Instead, they find ways to justify their change of mindset.
I've heard a lot of drivel on these boards but your position is something else.
So what you're saying is, regardless of whether the West extended its hand on the region for the last few generations, the root cause is the scripture. Left to their own devices there would be more empires and the spread of Islam through militaristic means because that is what their scripture demands. It certainly isn't politically motivated that has a justification in scripture. Rather, it's just what their religion tells them to do when taken literally.
And you say that as a way of completely minimising and actually disregarding Western Imperialism. The effects of it. Utterly decimating and raping countries. Installing dictators without any regard for the people and tribes. What comes out of this isn't pretty. What comes of out this are monstrosities.
Modern day literallists have a platform because of the mess caused by the West. You don't need anything more than that. And because they are of that particular religion, it can be framed as Islamic. Certainly the individuals who carry out these attacks or join ISIS believe at some level they are justified from a religious perspective. They believe they are doing God's will. But don't mistake that from the politics of these acts. They attack Western countries precisely because of what has happened in the region. The Islamic State uses scriptures as its backbone, but the rise of such a monster came out of the failures of the West on both Afghanistan and the subsequent invasion of Iraq. There is context here that you cannot ignore.
Frozenprince
Banned
Literally the same things with terror groups have been happening in sub Saharan Africa for generations and nobody disputes that as the result of colonialism.
Mancherester bomber was born and raised in Manchester, but yes that is also true though but not always the case.
That doesn't mean they don't care about what happens in other countries. Especially when it gets pushed in their own country that it's against their religion as a whole.
Both of those foster a distinct us vs them mentality and encourages this.
Yeah I was thinking the exact same thing on Thursday while watching the news.
It's the same song and dance each time this happens, the government 'takes action' by upping security around venues for a few days. We suddenly hear police of raids across the area, since the police/ security services have apparently been sitting intelligence and not acting/ too scared to act?
This goes on for a week or so then things go back to normal, people become relaxed, security drops then another attack happens. Anyone with half a brain wouldn't plan another attack at the moment since security is so high. So all this posturing is exactly that - pointless 'security' to make it look like the goverment is doing something.
This one was particularly bad and I feel it highlighted many issues: the bomber was reported by friends, family and the Muslim community several time. He had links to Libya with a known extremist father.
If the security services really knew about him like they said, why wasn't anything done? What's in place to deal with someone once identified as an extremist? It seems like the only two things I hear from people are deportation or jail, neither of these are appropriate in this case; he was British born and hadn't committed a crime (I assume you can't be jailed for holding extremist views? I may be wrong on that). But even with jail time it probably wouldn't fix him.
There's clearly no rehabilitation program for extremists, no doubt cuts to many goverment departments means action is limited.
At a time like this, mentioning a rehabilitation program as action to the British public probably wouldn't go over well, we're quickly becoming more extremist in our own views because of this constant passive behavior...
It's the same song and dance each time this happens, the government 'takes action' by upping security around venues for a few days. We suddenly hear police of raids across the area, since the police/ security services have apparently been sitting intelligence and not acting/ too scared to act?
This goes on for a week or so then things go back to normal, people become relaxed, security drops then another attack happens. Anyone with half a brain wouldn't plan another attack at the moment since security is so high. So all this posturing is exactly that - pointless 'security' to make it look like the goverment is doing something.
This one was particularly bad and I feel it highlighted many issues: the bomber was reported by friends, family and the Muslim community several time. He had links to Libya with a known extremist father.
If the security services really knew about him like they said, why wasn't anything done? What's in place to deal with someone once identified as an extremist? It seems like the only two things I hear from people are deportation or jail, neither of these are appropriate in this case; he was British born and hadn't committed a crime (I assume you can't be jailed for holding extremist views? I may be wrong on that). But even with jail time it probably wouldn't fix him.
There's clearly no rehabilitation program for extremists, no doubt cuts to many goverment departments means action is limited.
At a time like this, mentioning a rehabilitation program as action to the British public probably wouldn't go over well, we're quickly becoming more extremist in our own views because of this constant passive behavior...
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
What is "the real threat" even supposed to mean? Fascism is on the rise and I'd call that a real threat. Climate change isn't stopping and that's definitely a real threat. Terrorism is a real threat as well.
SirRattleBalls
Banned
Best line in the whole video,
His parents were Libyan refugees that returned after the fall of Gaddafi. The family is described as very traditional and 'super religious'. Being born in the UK is almost irrelevant when you have this surrounding you. Steps need to be taken to ensure refugees and migrants assimilate better.
Really? Even if we take the line at face value and assume it's 100% accurate, do you not think it sounds ridiculous saying those two things in same same breath?
it's like "I hate it when a nuclear bomb goes off or when I stub my toe on the coffee table"
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not proclaiming to be an expert and I'm very much thinking out loud, but I get the impression that Islamic terror attacks are as much to do with religion as the Iraq War was to do with WMDs. It seems like a hollow justification rather than a motive.
It seems like Islam is used as a twisted shorthand to get angry idiots to do one's dirty work. I mean, I could appropriate quotes from the Old Testament to "prove" God disapproves of Western Civilisation. While the masterminds behind these attacks may genuinely despise "Our Way of Life", I strongly (perhaps misguidedly) doubt it is actually because of religious doctrine, and more a non-nationalist kind of extremist fascism; an authoritarian regime using its limited resources to expand its influence, and justifying it with misappropriated religious quotes to tap into simmering anti-Western sentiment.
Like I said, I'm not an expert and could be well off the mark.
It seems like Islam is used as a twisted shorthand to get angry idiots to do one's dirty work. I mean, I could appropriate quotes from the Old Testament to "prove" God disapproves of Western Civilisation. While the masterminds behind these attacks may genuinely despise "Our Way of Life", I strongly (perhaps misguidedly) doubt it is actually because of religious doctrine, and more a non-nationalist kind of extremist fascism; an authoritarian regime using its limited resources to expand its influence, and justifying it with misappropriated religious quotes to tap into simmering anti-Western sentiment.
Like I said, I'm not an expert and could be well off the mark.