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Joystiq will not be reviewing Nier
- Thread starter GDJustin
- Start date
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Heaven forbid that someone, somewhere has an opinion someone else disagrees with.Vamphuntr said:
Crash Station
Member
This thread is a train wreck.
jim-jam bongs
Member
This reminds me of when I started playing Borderlands, which is pretty much the worst AAA game I've ever played. All my friends kept saying "don't worry Jim-Jam, I know the early parts are the epitome of awful game design but it gets better about 10 hours in!"
Upon hearing that I exited the game, fired up Torchlight and never looked back.
What's the problem? From what's been described, the idiotic, unintuitive game design is the issue here. Several reviewers and even more posters in this thread have agreed that the section in question is needlessly obtuse.
And from Justin's posts in this thread, I get the impression that the fishing was just the straw that broke the camel's back for him. If this mini-game is indicative of what the developers think is good gameplay, I will stay as far away from this game as I can. Thanks Justin!
Upon hearing that I exited the game, fired up Torchlight and never looked back.
What's the problem? From what's been described, the idiotic, unintuitive game design is the issue here. Several reviewers and even more posters in this thread have agreed that the section in question is needlessly obtuse.
And from Justin's posts in this thread, I get the impression that the fishing was just the straw that broke the camel's back for him. If this mini-game is indicative of what the developers think is good gameplay, I will stay as far away from this game as I can. Thanks Justin!
That's nothing compared to some of the shit in Skate 2's campaign. I've been trying to beat the "Mike Carroll and Eric Koston "Pro" Challenge", which is basically beat them in a game of horse. The thing is Horse in Skate 2 is like jumping into a half full garbage can on a hot summers day and having someone weld the top shut. Basically every trick that would be even slightly challenging to a 3 year old is excluded and will be chalked up as a simple ollie or nollie, which means anything you do will be mechanically repeated by both asshats verbatim. I've been at it for a half hour and at this rate I could go for hours without giving either of these dickbags a single letter. This leads me to believe it wasn't properly playtested, Black Box is full of fucktards or both. In either case this shit is inexcusable. /justified rage
riceandbeans
Member
Green Scar said:
Not when there's drama to be had! :lol
To be fair, not finishing a review and bad mouthing the game over a side-quest is silly.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Or SMT: Nocturne?Visceir said:
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Au contraire, mon frere. There's a reason Joystiq got banned back in the day, and it's because too many shitstorm threads came out of linking there.Green Scar said:
Good to see times have changed.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Visceir said:
:lol No.
For once I agree with Zephyr.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Fishing for another ban, Joystiq is? (no puns intended).
jim-jam bongs
Member
Cep said:
Great choice, but I have to ask now: what is your second rule of gaming?
firehawk12
Subete no aware
They addressed this on their podcast today and picked out some comments in this thread (among others) to make fun of. :lol
He did go back and play it for 6 more hours apparently.
He did go back and play it for 6 more hours apparently.
Visceir said:
FFXII did not have a decent story (it was well translated and had good voice acting, however). Nor did Nocturne. Or Persona 3.
This is why I can never agree with any GAFers on the merits on game stories. They compare it broadly to the horrifically low standards of other videogames, and I compare the stories to how they resonate across any medium, period. And I think the answer to that is extremely poorly.
Persona 3 being used as some pinnacle of jRPG storytelling pretty much says all that needs to be said, and I liked that game. A fucking lot.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Amir0x said:
Vagrant Story?
Edit: Why the hell did I add a question mark?
Vagrant Story!
Crash Station
Member
Amir0x said:
Glory of Heracles' story is good. Not sure how good the translation is though.
Edit: There's also Fragile if you consider that a JRPG.
Note: It is only my personal opinion that jRPG stories are all shitty. I'm not trying to say my opinion is a fact or anything. I simply do not hold it in high regard when someone says "This game has a good story" or "that game has a good story" because to me, if I went down a list of games that whomever said that believes had a "good story", chances are I'd disagree with pretty much all of it.
To me, the best stories in games so far are those that keep it simple, and use the inherent strengths of the interactive and visual medium to exploit what makes gaming strong.
For example, I believe Wind Waker told a fabulous story - although, the details itself were simple and there were no major plot twists, it was told in an extremely expresive fashion, allowing its strength with gameplay to benefit from its presentation (the way Link's eyes follow objects, for example).
I think games like Shadow of the Colossus, which are simple and open-ended, also tell a comparatively good story by game standards. It's pretty much avoiding the pitfall of game writing (since there seems to be no good writers in the industry), while using the visuals to provide gamers with an elegant, thought provoking theme.
Note that I'm choosing games with little in the way of epic narratives featuring 10,000 page scripts. Even if what is going on the screen is epic, the actual story details are restrained.
Games for the most part are never restrained, which is my biggest problem with jRPGs (and most Western Games too). They tend to feel gamers are retards or something. least that's the way I feel when I play these games.
I think right now, that's where gaming is at for stories. Most of them beat gamers over the head with themes and have no eye for how to appropriately utilize a medium which is both hands-on and visual.
We have games written well but which could have worked as books, because they were obviously written by talent (Planescape Torment). The gameplay itself, however, was not so hot. It's exceedingly rare when I game does both, because I don't think the industry is yet mature enough to do both. At the very least, there are very few developers which contain the talent to do both at the same time (both good gameplay and presentation/story).
To me, the best stories in games so far are those that keep it simple, and use the inherent strengths of the interactive and visual medium to exploit what makes gaming strong.
For example, I believe Wind Waker told a fabulous story - although, the details itself were simple and there were no major plot twists, it was told in an extremely expresive fashion, allowing its strength with gameplay to benefit from its presentation (the way Link's eyes follow objects, for example).
I think games like Shadow of the Colossus, which are simple and open-ended, also tell a comparatively good story by game standards. It's pretty much avoiding the pitfall of game writing (since there seems to be no good writers in the industry), while using the visuals to provide gamers with an elegant, thought provoking theme.
Note that I'm choosing games with little in the way of epic narratives featuring 10,000 page scripts. Even if what is going on the screen is epic, the actual story details are restrained.
Games for the most part are never restrained, which is my biggest problem with jRPGs (and most Western Games too). They tend to feel gamers are retards or something. least that's the way I feel when I play these games.
I think right now, that's where gaming is at for stories. Most of them beat gamers over the head with themes and have no eye for how to appropriately utilize a medium which is both hands-on and visual.
We have games written well but which could have worked as books, because they were obviously written by talent (Planescape Torment). The gameplay itself, however, was not so hot. It's exceedingly rare when I game does both, because I don't think the industry is yet mature enough to do both. At the very least, there are very few developers which contain the talent to do both at the same time (both good gameplay and presentation/story).
Fimbulvetr
Member
Amir0x said:
Well I can see how M3 excels with visual elements(like that hairbrushing scene you never stop mentioning), but I cannot remember a time where the gamey(for lack of a better word) parts added much(granted it's been a while since I've played and while I think it has good writing I'm not necessarily as into it as you are). Also: I believe while Mother 3 can't be done as a book it would easily work as an animated series without losing much in the process.
Edit: Should we take this to another thread?
Crash Station
Member
Amir0x said:
That seems like a very limited way of looking at things. My favorite stories in gaming are usually somewhat complex. I know my reputation on the subject is horrible here but I still say there are plenty of ways to tell a story in gaming and all of them have the potential to be good. Whether the developer decides to keep it simple or load it up with cutscenes, there's always a chance it could be a good story.
But hey, to each his own.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
I do agree with amirox that yeah, most game stories are kinda shitty. What makes them memorable (to me) is that you are interacting with the story, so even something that by itself would be shitty/forgettable, with audiovisuals and interactivity the sum of the experience becomes pretty memorable.
Windom Earle
Banned
Amir0x said:
I did not play Persona 3, but Nier's story is very different (and superior) to FFXII or SMT:N.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Raging Spaniard said:
Eh, a story itself should at least be serviceable(not good/not bad) as opposed to shitty if you're gonna even think of arguing that other aspects make it "good".
ZephyrFate
Banned
I'd really love to see you prove why Nocturne does not have a good story. Really. Please. Indulge me in this fallaciousness.Amir0x said:
Taken as a skeleton, there is absolutely nothing remarkable about SMT:N's story. Where it succeeds, though, is how you put the meat on those bones, which it does a marvelous job of via the demon negotiations and various decisions you make in the actual expository bits. It's the rare JRPG that has tons of "RP" and it's remained depressing that few games ever bothered to ape it, even in Atlus' own output.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
mjc said:
On the podcast they mention some horrendous stealth mission you have to do where any screw up is an instant fail.
Also, lots more GAF hate by the end of the podcast. Apparently you guys have abused wife Stockholm syndrome man... or are weaboos.
Strangely, that makes me want to pick up the game even more. I must be a masochist after all. :lol
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I guess it wasn't stealth per se, but some section where you can't run or something like that. I was half listening. :lol
mjemirzian
Banned
http://www.destructoid.com/nier-getting-dlc-probably-won-t-be-worth-it--173122.phtml
"You'll notice Destructoid does not have a Nier review yet. This is because it's one of the most exhausting games ever made, straddling the line between acceptable and terrible at every moment. It's not a game you either love or hate, it's a game you either hate or forgive, and we're not sure if we're able to forgive a terrible fishing minigame, endless fetch quests, forced and repeated text adventure sections, and some of the worst backtracking we've seen this generation."
Fightin werds by destructoid's lead troll Jim Sterling.
"You'll notice Destructoid does not have a Nier review yet. This is because it's one of the most exhausting games ever made, straddling the line between acceptable and terrible at every moment. It's not a game you either love or hate, it's a game you either hate or forgive, and we're not sure if we're able to forgive a terrible fishing minigame, endless fetch quests, forced and repeated text adventure sections, and some of the worst backtracking we've seen this generation."
Fightin werds by destructoid's lead troll Jim Sterling.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I thought Sterling left Dtoid for the equally trolling GamesRadar?
cosmicblizzard said:
I think there is a misunderstanding here, he is not saying that complexity is bad, just that most often the developers that go with more complex stories screw it up.
I am inclined to agree. Often, the core of the work is fine, but some idiot decides to tack on a lot of weird shit that just ruins it.
It is not so much that complexity is bad, it is just that it is harder to nail down.
ZephyrFate said:
I would like to see this response as well. I plan on playing Nocturne after my re-play of Gears and would love the insight.
ZephyrFate
Banned
The best part about Nocturne's plot is that you only know more about if you choose to. If you simply ignore the Amala Labyrinth, you miss a good chunk of what builds the world, why you're there, as well as access to the (what I regard as) the true ending.Ridley327 said:
I also feel like the philosophies that are presented are intriguing and really test the player into choosing what he or she feels comfortable with in regards to remaking the world as we know it.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Hm, let me see if I've got this right.
1. Justin McElroy joins NeoGAF, asks that Joystiq be taken off the banned list.
2. Justin McElroy makes silly mistake, blames a game for it.
3. GAF calls Joystiq on this in the usual GAF fashion.
4. Justin McElroy admits silly mistake but still doesn't take any responsibility at all for making it, instead still blaming the game.
5. Joystiq makes a podcast where Justin still doesn't take responsibility for making a mistake, and makes constant shots at GAF for both calling him on it and enjoying Nier.
Classy, Justin. Classy. Never read Joystiq before, certainly won't now. At the very least I've learned that if I see your name attached to an opinion, it's not worth listening to.
1. Justin McElroy joins NeoGAF, asks that Joystiq be taken off the banned list.
2. Justin McElroy makes silly mistake, blames a game for it.
3. GAF calls Joystiq on this in the usual GAF fashion.
4. Justin McElroy admits silly mistake but still doesn't take any responsibility at all for making it, instead still blaming the game.
5. Joystiq makes a podcast where Justin still doesn't take responsibility for making a mistake, and makes constant shots at GAF for both calling him on it and enjoying Nier.
Classy, Justin. Classy. Never read Joystiq before, certainly won't now. At the very least I've learned that if I see your name attached to an opinion, it's not worth listening to.
Windom Earle
Banned
Segata Sanshiro said:
/thread
PflargBlarg
Member
Yeah, I'm listening to the podcast right now and the Nier section of the podcast is really lame. I've listened to the podcast for a very long time and I really enjoy it and I'll keep listening...but still. Justin keeps mentioning how terrrrible it is, but he gives barely any examples.
He talked about it for like 25 minutes and only ended up talking about the fishing, the boar thing, and the room of fireballs where you blow up if you run.
First off, his explanation for the fishing sounded like bullshit to me. He screwed up by not following the icon on the minimap and then said some crap about how the game doesn't 'teach you' to look at the minimap. BULL - SHIT. You are full of crap Justin. If you play for an hour without looking at the minimap or whatever for some clues as what you're doing wrong, then you are just terrible at games.
The boar thing makes sense to me as to why it's bad, but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, I'll give him that though.
The 'stealth section' mentioned here was a clip he saw on youtube. Apparently there's a room where there's fireballs going back and forth, and you have to get across the room. If you run, you explode, so you have to walk across by slightly tilting the stick. If you hit the dodge button you explode. The only way to get through is by holding the block button and slowly inching your way across. The way he described it sounded pretty terrible but I haven't seen the video.
In any case, these are the only 3 things that he mentioned on the podcast and is not nearly enough to explain why it is considered a terrible game. I don't care that he decided not to review it, but he didn't give any good reasons.
The video was pretty funny.
EDIT: I forgot, his childish stabs at GAF were pretty annoying. Way to attack the comments made here by saying them in a stupid voice instead of actually discussing them.
He talked about it for like 25 minutes and only ended up talking about the fishing, the boar thing, and the room of fireballs where you blow up if you run.
First off, his explanation for the fishing sounded like bullshit to me. He screwed up by not following the icon on the minimap and then said some crap about how the game doesn't 'teach you' to look at the minimap. BULL - SHIT. You are full of crap Justin. If you play for an hour without looking at the minimap or whatever for some clues as what you're doing wrong, then you are just terrible at games.
The boar thing makes sense to me as to why it's bad, but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, I'll give him that though.
The 'stealth section' mentioned here was a clip he saw on youtube. Apparently there's a room where there's fireballs going back and forth, and you have to get across the room. If you run, you explode, so you have to walk across by slightly tilting the stick. If you hit the dodge button you explode. The only way to get through is by holding the block button and slowly inching your way across. The way he described it sounded pretty terrible but I haven't seen the video.
In any case, these are the only 3 things that he mentioned on the podcast and is not nearly enough to explain why it is considered a terrible game. I don't care that he decided not to review it, but he didn't give any good reasons.
The video was pretty funny.
EDIT: I forgot, his childish stabs at GAF were pretty annoying. Way to attack the comments made here by saying them in a stupid voice instead of actually discussing them.
ZephyrFate
Banned
It takes all of two minutes to walk across that particular room by holding the block button to get past the bullets. It's just a puzzle. Then you get to the block and attack it three times to make it blow up.Wormdundee said:
SIMPLE.
Skiesofwonder
Walruses, camels, bears, rabbits, tigers and badgers.
You expect me to understand your fucked up reasoning for not reviewing Nier by posting a video of a grown man "literally, literally" crying on screen because he cannot figure out the basic fundamentals of a particularly simple fishing mini-game?
I have no problems with reviewer's posting reviews of video games that they haven't actually finished as long as they have a valid excuse. You getting stuck on a part of a video game for an hour isn't one of them, and it sure as hell isn't when you act like a complete baby about it and scream idiot comments like "the developer is unethical for doing this"!
Your video was absolutely pathetic. Blog, website, magazine, or whatever the fuck you claim yourself to be, I can guarantee that I will never take your opinion seriously again.
What's really crappy about this is that I found out that Joystiq is still not banned from NeoGAF. My respect level for this forum has lowered a bit today.
I have no problems with reviewer's posting reviews of video games that they haven't actually finished as long as they have a valid excuse. You getting stuck on a part of a video game for an hour isn't one of them, and it sure as hell isn't when you act like a complete baby about it and scream idiot comments like "the developer is unethical for doing this"!
Your video was absolutely pathetic. Blog, website, magazine, or whatever the fuck you claim yourself to be, I can guarantee that I will never take your opinion seriously again.
What's really crappy about this is that I found out that Joystiq is still not banned from NeoGAF. My respect level for this forum has lowered a bit today.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
Segata Sanshiro is my hero. The member and the man.