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[ReplacementPelican]

A rape victim whose attack led to a judge saying drunk women were putting themselves in danger has defended the comments, saying the judge was "right".

Megan Clark, 19, was raped by a man she met in Burger King when she was drunk after a night out in Manchester.

The trial sparked controversy after the judge said the drunken behaviour of some women was putting them at risk.

Miss Clark told the Victoria Derbyshire programme the judge told women to "be careful", saying it was "good advice".

The teenager, who waived her right to anonymity to speak to the programme, said she took the judge's comments in "a positive way", adding that she did not believe she was "victim-blaming".

BBC Source

So, yeah. I mean, it's difficult to have a discussion about this and I have to hope this doesn't go too quickly to shit but I feel this is a discussion worth having. On the one hand, I have a knee-jerk to this which is to worry about victim blaming and shifting the responsibility to people who are otherwise completely right and well-meaning.

On the other hand, however, I sort of get it. We don't live in a perfect world and in that perfect world there'd be no need for a discussion like this but, at least in the UK, the amount of people who put themselves into vulnerable situations is really troubling. Anyone who has gone to University here can attest to the drunken 3am stumble that we've all made and ultimately this had made us - at one point or another - potential targets. The worry would be that if we're not frank about how to keep safe and how to be responsible - but not responsible for bad things happening, obviously - we run the risk of people being put in harm's way as they've not been told 'there's shitty people, you have to keep safe.' I would be inclined to think that people know this but any city center on a weekend makes me question that.

Ultimately I think the best idea is to go hard on the whole 'safety bus' idea that quite a few Universities use however I can't see councils actually having the funding for this which is a shame, its a good way to prevent these issues - and others - without asking people to compromise their lifestyles because they may be attacked by a criminal.

Also an issue I find is that the discussion about this can kind of muddy the discussion about rape as a whole because when discussing this we can start to conflate this with all rape whereas its only one instance which perpetrates a myth that all or most of victims are intoxicated and this is an issue because:

the ONS survey showed that 34 per cent of 16-19 year olds said a victim's drunkenness made them partially or totally responsible for rape, with 24.5 per cent of 20-24 year olds agreeing. Tackling a victim-blaming culture is one thing, but much more needs to be done to prevent rape from happening in the first place.

So even if its a discussion to have, should we? In a time where this is a troublingly common attitude do we take the risk of legitimizing stupidity? Where this amount of people already think that a victim is not 'so much' a victim because they're drunk?

As an aside, the man who raped the woman in this case was convicted on two counts.

 

[waxer]

Don't see how it's any more victim blaming than drinking increases risk of crashing your car.

 

[Moppeh]

I agree that telling people to be careful isn't victim blaming. And given the end result of the trial, I think it is clear that the judge wasn't being malicious towards women, he was just trying to stress caution in a world where guys are often sleazeballs around drunk women.

EDIT: Oops, didn't see that the judge was a woman.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

I mean, that judge wasn't wrong. Getting drunk undoubtedly increases the risk of being sexually assaulted. It's shitty and awful that this is still the case, but the judge was just being realistic. I don't really see how anyone could read that as the judge blaming her specifically.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Don't see how it's any more victim blaming than drinking increases risk of crashing your car.

man what? crashing your car while drunk is caused by you not having the ability to drive it correctly. getting raped while drunk is SOMEONE ELSE taking advantage of you not have the ability to stop them.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Don't see how it's any more victim blaming than drinking increases risk of crashing your car.

"Drink less, or this other car might crash into you." That comparison makes no sense.

Anyway, it is never the victims fault. But there are ways to prevent or lower the chances of being a victim, which are sadly necessary. But we should put the effort into making a safe environment and not put the burden of that on girls who go out drinking and having fun.

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

It is never the victims fault. But its also sound advice unfortunately.

 

[thetrin]

This is a tough topic to discuss, because it's highly semantic.

eg. 1 "You were raped because you got drunk and wore skanky clothing". <-- to me, this is 100% victim blaming. Specifically takes the blame off the perpetrator and puts it on the victim.

eg. 2 "If you are going to go out drinking tonight, please be careful, as being a drunk woman in this part of town puts you at higher risk of very real dangers in our society." <-- this doesn't come off as victim blaming to me. Those dangers exist, we're all aware of it, but we're also not saying that you deserve what happens to you if you make certain decisions. It is NOT your fault if you make those decisions, however there are some harsh realities we must protect ourselves from.

Does that makes sense?

 

[Pandaman]

Judge Kushner, 64, said "as a woman judge" it would "be remiss" if she did not beg women to protect themselves from predatory men who ''gravitate'' towards drunken females.
The mother of two, who has sat as a senior circuit judge since 2002, said judges have been criticised for "putting more emphasis on what girls should and shouldn't do than on the act and the blame to be apportioned to rapists".
"There is absolutely no excuse and a woman can do with her body what she wants and a man will have to adjust his behaviour accordingly," she said.
But she said she does not "think it's wrong for a judge to beg woman to take actions to protect themselves".

Well, it wasn't as bad as I thought.

 

[zoukka]

Don't see how it's any more victim blaming than drinking increases risk of crashing your car.

What an idiotic thing to say.

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

This is a tough topic to discuss, because it's highly semantic.

eg. 1 "You were raped because you got drunk and wore skanky clothing". <-- to me, this is 100% victim blaming. Specifically takes the blame off the perpetrator and puts it on the victim.

eg. 2 "If you are going to go out drinking tonight, please be careful, as being a drunk woman in this part of town puts you at higher risk of very real dangers in our society." <-- this doesn't come off as victim blaming to me. Those dangers exist, we're all aware of it, but we're also not saying that you deserve what happens to you if you make certain decisions. It is NOT your fault if you make those decisions, however there are some harsh realities we must protect ourselves from.

Does that makes sense?

Yes I agree.

 

[Moosichu]

Don't see how it's any more victim blaming than drinking increases risk of crashing your car.

Those are so different that this is a horrible comparison.

Pragmatically, yes, it can increase the risk of this happening. But we should strive to get to the point where it doesn't.

This in no way should factor into any kind of decision making in a trial though or how we treat the victims. At all.

It's not something Judges should be saying, and in sex ed in schools, it needs to be handled so careful so as to not give anyone the impression they are in any way, at all, to blame if they are assaulted while drunk.

We don't want victims not coming forward because they feel at fault. This advice should be given in private at the least.

 

[waxer]

man what? crashing your car while drunk is caused by you not having the ability to drive it correctly. getting raped while drunk is SOMEONE ELSE taking advantage of you not have the ability to stop them.

I mean in both cases you have less control mentally and physically. Makes you an obvious target and at greater risk.
It's a warning of greater risk not blame for the incident occurring.

 

[womfalcs3]

It's not your fault, but at the same time, you can't react properly to attackers while drunk.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

I agree that telling people to be careful isn't victim blaming. And given the end result of the trial, I think it is clear that the judge wasn't being malicious towards women, he was just trying to stress caution in a world where guys are often sleazeballs around drunk women.

Unless I'm severely mistaken, the Judge in question is a woman.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

This is a tough topic to discuss, because it's highly semantic.

eg. 1 "You were raped because you got drunk and wore skanky clothing". <-- to me, this is 100% victim blaming. Specifically takes the blame off the perpetrator and puts it on the victim.

eg. 2 "If you are going to go out drinking tonight, please be careful, as being a drunk woman in this part of town puts you at higher risk of very real dangers in our society." <-- this doesn't come off as victim blaming to me. Those dangers exist, we're all aware of it, but we're also not saying that you deserve what happens to you if you make certain decisions. It is NOT your fault if you make those decisions, however there are some harsh realities we must protect ourselves from.

Does that makes sense?

Makes sense to me. Well put.

 

[Amalthea]

Don't see how it's any more victim blaming than drinking increases risk of crashing your car.

Uh, the person who drives drunk is commiting a crime, somebody who get's raped while drunk doesn't commit a crime.

Like what are you even arguing here?

 

[Alienous]

I do think there's a fine line. There's no real positive in telling a victim "Hey, you should have done this" after an assault, but I'm sure there are women who have avoided awful situations due to being warned about 'swimming in shark infested water' - allowing themselves to be in a vulnerable position where predators are lurking.

 

[AllGamer]

This is a tough topic to discuss, because it's highly semantic.

eg. 1 "You were raped because you got drunk and wore skanky clothing". <-- to me, this is 100% victim blaming. Specifically takes the blame off the perpetrator and puts it on the victim.

eg. 2 "If you are going to go out drinking tonight, please be careful, as being a drunk woman in this part of town puts you at higher risk of very real dangers in our society." <-- this doesn't come off as victim blaming to me. Those dangers exist, we're all aware of it, but we're also not saying that you deserve what happens to you if you make certain decisions. It is NOT your fault if you make those decisions, however there are some harsh realities we must protect ourselves from.

Does that makes sense?

Makes perfect sense.

 

[Zaph]

This isn't complicated - 'warnings' like this once again directs the conversation to (mostly) women. Women have been the centre of the rape conversation since it was acknowledged as a problem.

Nobody is arguing it isn't sensible advice (binge drinking culture itself is a big problem that needs work), but it's also fucking obvious advice that doesn't need repeating because it hasn't worked so far - (mostly) men are still raping and alcohol/drugs are often not even involved.

 

[Figboy79]

What a gross thing to say.

Yes, being drunk and out late increases your chances of something bad happening to you (from accidents to rapes), but ultimately, the fault and blame lies with the rapist who violated your personal space and boundaries. The judges comments are treading very close to "but what were you wearing?"

 

[Easy_D]

I mean, that judge wasn't wrong. Getting drunk undoubtedly increases the risk of being sexually assaulted. It's shitty and awful that this is still the case, but the judge was just being realistic. I don't really see how anyone could read that as the judge blaming her specifically.

Yeah. It's not fair to women that they're less safe when drinking but.. I dunno. It's a problem among us men, it's shitty that it's women who have to be cautious about it, if you get what I mean

It really needs to get more attention. Is rape even brought up in school during sexual education? You can tell women to be more careful all you want but that's like putting a bandaid on an infected pus-leaking wound

 

[elyetis]

Don't see how it's any more victim blaming than drinking increases risk of crashing your car.

The comparison with not closing your door seem more fair. You absolutely don't deserve to get your stuff stolen if you forgot to close/lock your door, but I would still advise people to lock their door. That being said I wouldn't tell that to someone who just got his/her stuff stolen.

 

[thetrin]

Yeah. It's not fair to women that they're less safe when drinking but.. I dunno. It's a problem among us men, it's shitty that it's women who have to be cautious about it, if you get what I mean

It is absolutely unfair. I 100% agree. However, while it's unfair, change (in this case changing the minds of our men when it comes to interacting with inebriated women) takes a long time, those in danger must take certain measures in the short term to remain safe. It sucks, but it's a reality.

The hope is that while we work to slowly change our society, the number of victims remains at a minimum.

 

[zoukka]

It really needs to get more attention. Is rape even brought up in school during sexual education? You can tell women to be more careful all you want but that's like putting a bandaid on an infected pus-leaking wound

Hell no and it's sad.

Rape culture is the single most important issue we need to fix in our societies.

 

[EGM1966]

Makes sense to me. As I read it the comments are a realistic caution, like being advised not to drink and drive.

As I see it:

Should women need to fear being abused while drunk? No.

Realistically in our society is this the case? No. They are at risk.

Thus not getting too drunk reduces risk.

 

[duckroll]

I mean in both cases you have less control mentally and physically. Makes you an obvious target and at greater risk.
It's a warning of greater risk not blame for the incident occurring.

What. When you drink and drive, it's not about you putting yourself at risk. It's about you putting OTHERS at risk. A drunk person ramming their car into someone else makes them a perpetrator not a victim. That's why it's illegal. You don't warn people not to drink and drive for their own safety, you warn people not to do it because it is against the law and could harm others. Worst comparison ever.

 

[H.Protagonist]

The problem with this "good advice" is that it's always the woman being told what she could have done better. Instead of putting money, energy, effort, or hell, even directing 'advice' like this at those who find rape a gray area or into tackling those actually committing the crimes, it's easier and cheaper to just put the onus on women and say do X, Y, Z to try and prevent being raped. That's why it's a shitty thing.

 

[RalchAC]

man what? crashing your car while drunk is caused by you not having the ability to drive it correctly. getting raped while drunk is SOMEONE ELSE taking advantage of you not have the ability to stop them.

So, unless I'm missing context and background of said judge, it sounds mostly right. Being drunk puts yourself in danger. If you are a woman, it's quite worse because there is more people wanting to take advantage of it.

That doesn't mean that they shouldn't get drunk. Friends of mine have been drunk and they never had a problem, but:

A) They were hanging out with people they trust.
B) They didn't went back home alone. Most of the time either me, a friend, or both, which lived quite far away from the district where most pubs are located, accompanied them home.

As a man, I know there were still some risks when I did the last stretch of my way home alone. But I'd say the risks are quite greater when you're a woman.

The problem with this "good advice" is that it's always the woman being told what she could have done better. Instead of putting money, energy, effort, or hell, even directing 'advice' like this at those who find rape a gray area or into tackling those actually committing the crimes, it's easier and cheaper to just put the onus on women and say do X, Y, Z to try and prevent being raped. That's why it's a shitty thing.

That makes sense.

I'd say it'd be interesting if, instead of directly telling teens and young adult to not get drunk (which is useless, because they will anyway) they would be taught how to be more careful with what they do when they've been drinking. I know women that thought nothing would happen and went back home alone. And nothing happened but it could have. And it's a risk that isn't really worth taking.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

I think we live in a world where rapists will target the vonurable, be they intoxicated, disabled or from a generally bad environment, so matter if society thinks it's right or wrong those already commited to the idea of vialating a person in such ways couldn't give a fuck one way or another.

 

[GhostBed]

This isn't complicated - 'warnings' like this once again directs the conversation to (mostly) women. Women have been the centre of the rape conversation since it was acknowledged as a problem.

Nobody is arguing it isn't sensible advice (binge drinking culture itself is a big problem that needs work), but it's also fucking obvious advice that doesn't need repeating because it hasn't worked so far - (mostly) men are still raping and alcohol/drugs are often not even involved.

This.

We shouldn't need to be repeating "be careful" because it is fucking obvious advice and it doesn't stop a dann thing.

The victim was at a Burger King after a night out on the town...how was she not being careful? Is it because she didn't rush home and lock the Doors? Are women not allowed to be drunk in public? What should she have done differently to "be careful".

I hate when we even bring this point up. Like, do you think the victim isn't wishing to death that she did something differently that night? Why rub it in her face by saying "be careful"? As if she already doesn't fucking know that.

It's worthless and condescending advice.

We need to be addressing the men who do this in the first place. We need to be constantly scolding them and reworking our culture to make things like this less acceptable in men's minds. We've made a lot of progress in the past few years by bringing the concept of rape culture into the mainstream, but there is still a ton of work to be done.

Telling women to "be careful" is fucking stupid.

 

[Ri'Orius]

It is factually accurate advice. However, it's also harmful advice. Rape victims already have things stacked against them: the act itself makes them feel unclean, society's ideas of virginity and purity reinforce the notion that being raped can make someone less morally good, the (necessary but unfortunate) difficulty in getting a conviction due to the he said/she said nature of such cases, the disproportionate impression people have of false rape accusations, etc. They feel bad enough already: the deluge of "you should've been more careful" just makes things worse.

I mean, I know I second guess a lot of mistakes I've made with very minor consequences. I can't imagine how often a rape victim tells herself all the things she could have done differently. She doesn't need to be told that by everyone around her, too.

So it's one of those scenarios where the correct thing to say isn't the right thing to say.

 

[GhostBed]

A) They were hanging out with people they trust.
B) They didn't went back home alone. Most of the time either me, a friend, or both, which lived quite far away from the district where most pubs are located, accompanied them home.

How about my friend who was raped by her friend? She wasn't alone, she was with people she trusted, she didn't go out alone or come home alone. And yet the rape still happened.

It is never the woman's fault and women shouldn't have to dance around bullshit obstacles to avoid being assaulted while they are drinking.

Yeah, these are solid pieces of advice to stay safe. But only before the fact, not after it's already happened. It's a gnarly insult if You try to give this kind of advice to someone after it's already happened. And it's not fool- proof at all.

Telling a rape victim stuff like this feels super condescending. Why not just say "i'm so sorry, how can I help?" That will do a hell of a lot more to actually, ya know, help the victim as opposed to shifting blame towards their actions.

Trust me, rape victims already feel a heavy weight of guilt and blame without anyone supplying more.

 

[waxer]

What. When you drink and drive, it's not about you putting yourself at risk. It's about you putting OTHERS at risk. A drunk person ramming their car into someone else makes them a perpetrator not a victim. That's why it's illegal. You don't warn people not to drink and drive for their own safety, you warn people not to do it because it is against the law and could harm others. Worst comparison ever.

What's driving and law got to do with anything. I wasn't comparing rape with road law lol.

Drink driving is an obvious public safety message posted on buses billboards tv adverts etc here. Of course you tell people not to drink and drive for their own safety as well as others.

I feel sorry for people with drinking problems. People should try to help them.

It's a general message. As many have said it's in the context of the situation.

Saying your dress is to short you deserved it. Or "well you shouldn't have been drinking" is different to saying something like.
I feel like people are putting themselves at greater risk by getting intoxicated.

Whether the timing was appropriate is another matter.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Yeah. It's not fair to women that they're less safe when drinking but.. I dunno. It's a problem among us men, it's shitty that it's women who have to be cautious about it, if you get what I mean

Oh absolutely, I totally agree.

Drink driving is an obvious public safety message posted on buses billboards tv adverts etc here. Of course you tell people not to drink and drive for their own safety as well as others.

The problem with your analogy is that being drunk increases the risk of a crash, and if this drunk driver crashes, it's their fault. If a woman is drunk in the city or clubs or something, it might increase her risk of being sexually assaulted, but if a woman is sexually assaulted when she's drunk, it's not her fault.

Both are drunk, but only one is in the wrong should the bad thing occur. You get what I'm saying?

 

[SomTervo]

I mean in both cases you have less control mentally and physically. Makes you an obvious target and at greater risk.
It's a warning of greater risk not blame for the incident occurring.

That's a fine viewpoint but the comparison to drink driving wasn't good. That was a false equivalence. DUI is dangerous because your faculties are worse and in a car that can be life threatening to you and others, not because it makes you an easier target. Being alone on streets while drunk is fine for your safety and the safety of others (you don't need your faculties to move around) but it makes you more of a target.

Your understanding is fine but the comparison was facetious.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

What a gross thing to say.

Yes, being drunk and out late increases your chances of something bad happening to you (from accidents to rapes), but ultimately, the fault and blame lies with the rapist who violated your personal space and boundaries. The judges comments are treading very close to "but what were you wearing?"

I think you should actually read the judge's comments in full. You say 'the fault and blame lies with the rapist' but she convicted him.

This is a tough topic to discuss, because it's highly semantic.

eg. 1 "You were raped because you got drunk and wore skanky clothing". <-- to me, this is 100% victim blaming. Specifically takes the blame off the perpetrator and puts it on the victim.

eg. 2 "If you are going to go out drinking tonight, please be careful, as being a drunk woman in this part of town puts you at higher risk of very real dangers in our society." <-- this doesn't come off as victim blaming to me. Those dangers exist, we're all aware of it, but we're also not saying that you deserve what happens to you if you make certain decisions. It is NOT your fault if you make those decisions, however there are some harsh realities we must protect ourselves from.

Does that makes sense?

Yeah, this is pretty much it as far as I'm concerned.

The problem with this "good advice" is that it's always the woman being told what she could have done better. Instead of putting money, energy, effort, or hell, even directing 'advice' like this at those who find rape a gray area or into tackling those actually committing the crimes, it's easier and cheaper to just put the onus on women and say do X, Y, Z to try and prevent being raped. That's why it's a shitty thing.

Yeah, you say that and I agree but its kind of hard to directly appeal to people who are committing crimes. Someone who rapes a drunk woman in the street isn't someone you can target an advert to and they'll go 'oh God, what have I been doing? I didn't realise that was rape!' They know what they did.

The adverts made that do target men are about parties and the meaning of consent. I mean, maybe you're American but here in the UK there's been a lot of targeted advertising to young men from the government. Not just about consent but abuse in relationships, etc...I even saw one at the cinema the other day. The UK does actually do these things.

This.

We shouldn't need to be repeating "be careful" because it is fucking obvious advice and it doesn't stop a dann thing.

The victim was at a Burger King after a night out on the town...how was she not being careful? Is it because she didn't rush home and lock the Doors? Are women not allowed to be drunk in public? What should she have done differently to "be careful".

I hate when we even bring this point up. Like, do you think the victim isn't wishing to death that she did something differently that night? Why rub it in her face by saying "be careful"? As if she already doesn't fucking know that.

It's worthless and condescending advice.

We need to be addressing the men who do this in the first place. We need to be constantly scolding them and reworking our culture to make things like this less acceptable in men's minds. We've made a lot of progress in the past few years by bringing the concept of rape culture into the mainstream, but there is still a ton of work to be done.

Telling women to "be careful" is fucking stupid.

I would be inclined to agree with you but if you're actually out and about in town/city centers after a night out its plainly obvious that 'safety' is literally the last thing on people's minds. Its blindingly obvious advice to a sober person but when you're drunk you're not always cognizant of these things. Its not about 'running home and locking the doors' but if you're walking home alone and intoxicated you're vulnerable.

Look, its a hard thing to discuss but I used to go out damn near every night and there are always people that do this. They think it wont happen to them or that they're 'safe' but I know people who have been physically assaulted, mugged, etc... because of walking home drunk and thinking 'it wont happen to me.' To you it may be obvious but people let their guard down.

And once more, the UK has made a lot of targeted advertising towards young men but that's not going to stop someone who attacks and rapes a woman in the street, that guy knows what he's doing and intended to do it, I don't think you can stop that any more than someone who mugs, assaults people or burglarizes.

Which of course means people need to be informed when they're young. I'll ask some teacher friends what sex education entails in the UK but with the government's massive push on consent you'd hope its comprehensive.

 

[Polari]

It is factually accurate advice. However, it's also harmful advice. Rape victims already have things stacked against them: the act itself makes them feel unclean, society's ideas of virginity and purity reinforce the notion that being raped can make someone less morally good, the (necessary but unfortunate) difficulty in getting a conviction due to the he said/she said nature of such cases, the disproportionate impression people have of false rape accusations, etc. They feel bad enough already: the deluge of "you should've been more careful" just makes things worse.

I mean, I know I second guess a lot of mistakes I've made with very minor consequences. I can't imagine how often a rape victim tells herself all the things she could have done differently. She doesn't need to be told that by everyone around her, too.

So it's one of those scenarios where the correct thing to say isn't the right thing to say.

I'm guessing this is a judge who has seen plenty of cases where if people had taken a few simple precautions they might have not suffered something awful. I don't think what she said was in anyway victim-blaming or insensitive.

If it means less people end up becoming victims of crime, it's the right thing to say. We can't just stick our heads in the sand. Do you lock your house when you go out? I do. Leaving it unlocked doesn't mean it's my fault if I get burgled, but I know locking it acts as a deterrent against burglars.

 

[azyless]

Women should never leave their home or go anywhere men are present. Not victim blaming just offering advice

 

[T.O.P]

This is a tough topic to discuss, because it's highly semantic.

eg. 1 "You were raped because you got drunk and wore skanky clothing". <-- to me, this is 100% victim blaming. Specifically takes the blame off the perpetrator and puts it on the victim.

eg. 2 "If you are going to go out drinking tonight, please be careful, as being a drunk woman in this part of town puts you at higher risk of very real dangers in our society." <-- this doesn't come off as victim blaming to me. Those dangers exist, we're all aware of it, but we're also not saying that you deserve what happens to you if you make certain decisions. It is NOT your fault if you make those decisions, however there are some harsh realities we must protect ourselves from.

Does that makes sense?

I agree with this, judge wasn't victim blaming in this case imo

Women should never leave their home or go anywhere men are present. Not victim blaming just offering advice

Is this a "gotcha" reply or something? because jeez

 

[Saint of Killers]

I read the judges comments as Some guys can be monumental cunts, so please be careful when drinking because said cunty-cunts may take advantage of you. To me that's no where near approaching comments along the lines of Well, why were you wearing such a revealing dress? etc. The worst thing I can say about the judges comments was that she was stating the bloody obvious.

Just because the judge said please be careful when drinking doesn't mean she thinks women on a night out shouldn't drink at all. Unless, that is, we have knowledge of this judge having said such a thing in the past. Do we?

 

[psychowave]

I mean maybe we should also tell boys to respect girls as their equals to reduce the chance of them becoming rapists when they become adults. Like that's probably just as effective if not more when it comes to reducing rape but no one wants to do that I guess.

 

[waxer]

That's a fine viewpoint but the comparison to drink driving wasn't good. That was a false equivalence. DUI is dangerous because your faculties are worse and in a car that can be life threatening to you and others, not because it makes you an easier target. Being alone on streets while drunk is fine for your safety and the safety of others (you don't need your faculties to move around) but it makes you more of a target.

Your understanding is fine but the comparison was facetious.

Totally get what your saying and I didn't mean it in that way. Really wasn't trying to point out anything to do with the crime only the safety message. Which I have heard or read just about every day for the last 20years as it's plastered everywhere. And also given the right situation would be the wrong thing to say, so seemed fitting if insensitive as pointed out.

Bad choice of wording on my part.


Also as someone working mental disabilities the percentage of people with abusive pasts is staggering. It really sucks. I guess from my point of view I've seen how much damage gets done and how much more of a target people become both male and female due to their mental abilities.

That's the unfortunate state of things now. While warnings are not the solution. They can help. People live in bubbles and while obvious advice to most not everyone keeps such thoughts in mind while out drinking.

 

[GhostBed]

The worst thing I can say about the judges comments was that she was stating the bloody obvious.

I think that's the main issue. Of course the victim already knows this, so why in the blue hell would you even say it? It's not constructive, it's insultingly obvious.

Advice like this is something you say to someone before they go out.

If you say it after it's already happened...at worst, it's victim blaming. At best, it's completely unnecessary.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Women should never leave their home or go anywhere men are present. Not victim blaming just offering advice

Your advice is shit.

I mean maybe we should also tell boys to respect girls as their equals to reduce the chance of them becoming rapists when they become adults. Like that's probably just as effective if not more when it comes to reducing rape but no one wants to do that I guess.

Of course people want to do that AND ALREADY DO THAT CURRENTLY, stop being so defeatist. It's pathetic. Teaching a group of young men about respecting women, the importance of consent etc. would definitely reduce the likelihood that members of that group engage in assaults, however it won't completely eradicate it. It fucking sucks but women would still need to be wary of those who might take advantage of them, regardless of young men being thoroughly educated on sexual assault.

I 100% agree that there should be a stronger focus on teaching guys about respecting women, the dangers of alcohol and drugs in sexual assaults, how crucial consent is and all of that, but the judge can only say so much in Obiter dictum. Does she lament men who commit these crimes against vulnerable women or the society which enables it? Does she try to give advice to women to the best of her abilities? I don't know what the best response is, but I'm inclined to believe that this judge chose hers because was attempting to provide advice in hopes that it helps, not to lecture to a victim that they're somehow at fault.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

I mean maybe we should also tell boys to respect girls as their equals to reduce the chance of them becoming rapists when they become adults. Like that's probably just as effective if not more when it comes to reducing rape but no one wants to do that I guess.

Who isn't doing this, sorry?

The UK, in my youth, had the following adverts on national TV, the internet, cinemas, etc...:
An advert where a guy gives his girlfriend shit and ends up smashing her phone. The advert says this is abuse. The advert has the young man screaming from behind his own vision 'what are you doing? Stop! Don't hurt her' or something to that effect.
An advert where a guy takes a girl upstairs at a party and she says 'no' but he keeps going. The advert was clear that this is rape. Similar behind his own vision motif.
An advert where a man belittles his partner openly in a restaurant. The advert was about emotional abuse.
Currently theres an advert discussing the following: 'no means no', physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexting (pressure) and revenge porn. It highlights how these are wrong. The campaign is called 'Disrespect NoBody'

These are just the ones I remember.

Do you care to maybe explain your point? Perhaps you're not from the UK?

 

[family_guy]

I think it's fine to say to not make yourself an easy target. If someone got robbed while drunk you could tell them the same thing.

 

[danthefan]

This is a tough topic to discuss, because it's highly semantic.

eg. 1 "You were raped because you got drunk and wore skanky clothing". <-- to me, this is 100% victim blaming. Specifically takes the blame off the perpetrator and puts it on the victim.

eg. 2 "If you are going to go out drinking tonight, please be careful, as being a drunk woman in this part of town puts you at higher risk of very real dangers in our society." <-- this doesn't come off as victim blaming to me. Those dangers exist, we're all aware of it, but we're also not saying that you deserve what happens to you if you make certain decisions. It is NOT your fault if you make those decisions, however there are some harsh realities we must protect ourselves from.

Does that makes sense?

I completely agree with this, good post.

 

[Magni]

This is a tough topic to discuss, because it's highly semantic.

eg. 1 "You were raped because you got drunk and wore skanky clothing". <-- to me, this is 100% victim blaming. Specifically takes the blame off the perpetrator and puts it on the victim.

eg. 2 "If you are going to go out drinking tonight, please be careful, as being a drunk woman in this part of town puts you at higher risk of very real dangers in our society." <-- this doesn't come off as victim blaming to me. Those dangers exist, we're all aware of it, but we're also not saying that you deserve what happens to you if you make certain decisions. It is NOT your fault if you make those decisions, however there are some harsh realities we must protect ourselves from.

Does that makes sense?

.

 

[TimmmV]

I think it's fine to say to not make yourself an easy target. If someone got robbed while drunk you could tell them the same thing.

The problem is that this isn't usually what happens, it and seems to always come down to women and drinking

That part of Manchester is well known (among locals at least) as fairly rough and most people try and steer clear of it at night time as it associated with drug dealing/mugging/higher crime, yet all of the advice to the woman is "you increase the risk of that if you get drunk".

Likewise, if a drunk man was in the same area and got mugged or something, people wouldn't be say "well, you increase the risk of that happening when you go out drinking", they would be saying "well don't go around that area by yourself at night time"

Like, the "drinking increases risk of something bad happening" is technically correct I guess, but its advice that is only ever given to women, which makes it fairly sexist imo