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I do think it's a bit of a double standard when a prisoner is entitled to healthcare that covers transgender procedures, yet 98% of citizens (i.e. not working for Google, IBM, major tech companies seem to cover trans stuff) aren't.
That is not to say you fix this problem by denying the care to prisoners, fix the whole system.
That is not to say you fix this problem by denying the care to prisoners, fix the whole system.
The idea is that normal citizens have jobs, get paid and can pay for their own health insurance, while prisoners who are in custody of the US government can't. Prisoners don't have jobs, even if they make a bit of money it's really from the government, so the government is responsible for the health insurance of any prisoners. If this policy weren't in place, any inmate suffering from any condition would never be treated and would be left to suffer.
Americans should be glad that their country has at least some moral fiber in its bones. And I shake my head at people who think criminals should be left to rot and die without any help. WTF?
But then again, looking at the state of US prisons, the conditions there aren't that far removed from the horrors of south American prisons at this point. It's impossible to enter a US prison and leave as a better human being. See Louis Theroux' documentaries on the US prison system.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I have no sympathy for anyone who kills an innocent person. That being said, considering the doctors have ruled that withholding treatment would essentially be cruel and unusual punishment, I support the ruling. Even if you argue this is an unnecessary cosmetic surgery it should be pointed out that we spend a lot of money giving prisoners that already (such as composite resin fillings) - but no one really complains about it until a case like this comes up.
The cost of getting these procedures runs at about what people would pay for a car, or a down payment on a home. It's prohibitively expensive, and is poorly covered by health insurance, if at all. You can't reasonably expect ordinary citizens to pay that amount while prisoners receive the same treatment for free.
I do agree with you though that it is good precedent. I agree that it's a good thing this is being dealt with and being seen as a medical issue, now I just want that to be the case for non-prisoners.
If she got shivved, would you not be supportive of emergency medical care?
Apologies for the double post.
Unfortunately, your country has deemed it in law that only those who have broken society's laws are able to have society's compassion. Either campaign to have that compassion available to all, or campaign to have it available to none. Anything else, "these guys get some but these guys don't", is the height of hypocrisy.
It is not for the providers of healthcare to judge those they give care to. Such a notion goes against all principles of being a doctor. There is no "deserve", only those that need.
Unfortunately, your country has deemed it in law that only those who have broken society's laws are able to have society's compassion. Either campaign to have that compassion available to all, or campaign to have it available to none. Anything else, "these guys get some but these guys don't", is the height of hypocrisy.
If he identifies as a woman and psychological evaluation agrees he's transgender, he should be transfered to a female prison, up until that point is ok in my eyes, but covering the operation is, well, I don't know, they are already giving him hormone therapy, and we are talking about a murderer here.
flippymittens
Banned
Gender reassignment surgery is not simply "cosmetic surgery"...
Problem would be solved by setting him/her free. Twenty years in prison for an unpremeditated murder is enough in my book. (Even 20 years is a fucking long time to be locked up. I'm in my forties and I can't conceive what it would be like to have spent almost my complete adult life in prison.)
I must be mistaken. So its necessary for survival?
What you're proposing isn't how "cosmetic surgery" is defined.
In most cases, an asthma inhaler isn't "necessary for survival", but it sure is necessary for a basic quality of life.
This is just like that.
Healthcare doesn't just save people from doom, it guarantees them that certain quality of life.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Seriously?
She should have the surgery and be sent to the female prison for the rest of her life.
Kosilek has twice attempted castration and twice attempted suicide. So yes.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Some of this thread is pretty disgusting. GAF is a mostly gay friendly place, but it appears there isn't much understanding for gender identity disorder.
Do you think it's fun to be transgender? Do you think they do it for fun? Do you think gay people are gay just because it's fun? I don't understand how there can be such a discrepancy in understanding.
Do you think it's fun to be transgender? Do you think they do it for fun? Do you think gay people are gay just because it's fun? I don't understand how there can be such a discrepancy in understanding.
So if someone attempts to commit suicide because they are denied <insert anything> then they deserve to get it?
When it comes to anything involving prisoners, effective judicial systems and better societies, a large chunk of GAF doesn't understand anything. To them, it's an elaborate game of scoring points and getting revenge, of designating some people as sub-human and themselves as righteous, because they would never do X to another person, unless that person also did X, in which case that person doesn't deserve Y and is fair game for mistreatment.
When doctors medically diagnose <insert anything> as being a direct cause of that suicide? Yes. We're not talking about somebody wanting something and using suicide to try and get it, we're talking about somebody needing something and being driven to suicide by the lack of it.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Out of interest, if the doctor's didn't diagnose this as being a direct cause of the suicide attempt would you be arguing tax payers should pay for the surgery? I have a feeling a lot of people would be.
It's a quality of life surgery. Regardless, there's no reason this should be a taxpayer-funded surgery when real honest transgendered women can't afford it, much less get it taxpayer-funded.
I don't think that's reason to give it to them. Plus it's very likely the attempted suicides were a result of being in an all-male prison.
Yes. I live in the Netherlands were prison sentences are a joke. Murderers get at most 12 years, after a couple of years they're allowed trips outside the prison and they get sent home after having done 2/3 of their sentence. But compared to the general population of the US who think three strikes and you're out is too lenient and any murderer deserves life without any chance of parole I'm a flaming liberal.
I don't think that's reason to give it to them. Plus it's very likely the attempted suicides were a result of being in an all-male prison.
This has to be a factor in my mind. Being a trans woman in a mens prison is my version of hell. I cannot imagine anything worse.
Yes, because then that doctor would be incompetent. Gender dysmorphia is a very real thing and anyone who suffers from it should be granted access to the proper treatment.
Yeah. It's a tricky situation. Putting them in a male prison is basically Hell on Earth, but you can't simply put the person in with the women. Although in Kosilek's case, they've been taking hormones for quite awhile....
They shouldn't be given a taxpayer funded surgery when honest, good working transmen and transwomen don't even often get that. That's not right at all.
They are wards of the State. While the State has an obligation to help all citizens, that goes double for those directly under its care, such as prisoners.
Saying "We should all have healthcare, so let's take it away from those that do have it" isn't exactly productive.
And again: healthcare is about who is deserving. You don't judge who you're treating. The state has an obligation to help those under its care, regardless of who they are or what they have done.
PhoenixDark
Banned
So the doctors' views are irrelevant to your views correct - they happen to agree with your views, but if they didn't you'd have the same view. Not arguing, just curious
In that case vote for a system of universal health insurance Like the rest of the world is already enjoying instead of wanting to deny prisoners health care. As I said, the government is responsible for the health of the inmates so it has no choice but to provide free health care. That's not an issue. The real issue is that US health care is fucked up and instead of creating a system where anybody would enjoy basic health care Americans would rather break it down so only the privileged can enjoy it.
Regardless of if they're a ward of the state, it is still a quality of life surgery, and not essential to their survival. Many Transwomen go and pass even without this surgery, and there is no reason that one who murdered their wife should be granted this. Especially considering the seemingly unstable nature of the patient.
I hate to agree with the Senator, as he's almost certainly saying it for different reasons than I am, but he's right: This is an abuse of taxpayer dollars.
flippymittens
Banned
Apparently committing a crime strips you of your humanity. It confuses me why people want to impose harsh sentences on criminals when many criminals are the product of their environments or have issues with their brain (damaged frontal lobe can contribute to crime I read somewhere but I am not sure if that is true). I mean I understand removing freedom but as you said should they be forced to live in horrible living conditions and denied health care?
That is a very great way of putting it.
So in this case, the only way to distinguish between the two is on the diagnosis of a doctor. So if a doctor ruled that this individual was full of crap and the suicide/castration attempts were all for show, you would support that diagnosis?
EDiT: Sorry, just saw you answered that question earlier
I see, moral fiber.. so do we see the homeless get the same treatment prisoners do? I.e 3 square meals a deal, a roof over their head, free healthcare?
Not the best way of putting it, I'm aware. But it's still not essential to one's survival. She's already getting more treatment than many transwomen (including myself) are able to get. And what happens if she goes and commits suicide after she's had the surgery?
Murder is not exactly a light crime.
flippymittens
Banned
I thought it was near the best way of putting it and it sucks that you are not able to obtain the same treatment because in my view it should be the case.
Murder is not a light crime but I believe in rehabilitation over punishment.
I agree with that. I don't agree with giving a suicidal murder a $20,000+ taxpayer-funded surgery when their are other ways to deal with the situation.
I wish I knew more about the murder: They've been serving an awfully long time (over 20 years) as of now. This may be a case where life without parole is absurd.
What does this have to do with health care? I have a large nose that I do not feel all that great about, should the government give me Brad Pitts face because that will make me feel more like me? Maybe if I murder someone or burn down a building I can get the facial surgery I need to feel like a complete human. Thanks for paying for it by the way.
Is this a serious post?
I was wondering whether or not this was a serious thread.
If you tried to kill yourself over your nose, they would probably do some other things, like focus on making you not want to kill yourself due to your nose. But yea, given that happened, you would probably get some kind of (mental) health care.
Obviously, gender is a bit different.
*facepalm*
Gender Dysphoria is a real issue and shouldn't be taken lightly, much less mocked.
Gender identity disorder is not "I want to be like someone else".
Lets remove the whole sex change aspect from it.
So you murder someone, you get life in prison or the death penalty, and a doctor determines that some aspect of your life needs to be altered medically in order to make prison no longer cruel and unusual punishment.
For me, that would be not having to live in a prison for the remainder of my life. That is not an option. Ok so I need access to Neogaf because I love videogames and the friends I have made here or else I will go insane looking at the walls of my 10 x 10 cell. Again no sympathy, no computer for me. Where do I somehow start enjoying the experience or not find it to be cruel without the government building a perfect life for my permanent imprisonment?
Boom. Access should be improved for non prisoners, not reduced for prisoners.
Lets try a more reasonable analogy, shall we? Say someone in for life gets cancer, do they get treatment?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You're still treating gender identity disorder as a want rather than a need. You are really ignorant about this and should listen and read more about it rather than persisting with being stubborn about it.
I am not mocking it at all. In the case of being in prison, I find this issue to be a bit on the crazy side. I mean imagine the costs of such medical procedures for every prison inmate and the comfort of their stay or their rehabilitation.
timetokill
Banned
The word "Need"/"necessity" really suggests a requirement of some sort.
Obviously a sex change is not necessary to live. However, it may be necessary for a basic quality of life.
The problem is where that "quality of life" line is drawn.
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