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June 2008: Battleground for PC Graphics - Geforce GTX 200 v Radeon HD 4800

bee said:
and can charge any price it seems, $120 lol
Click to expand...
Is for a whole application. The point to rescue is that with an open API companies can allow their products to feature GPU enhancement.
 
tenchir said:
Looks like someone has figured out how to enabled PhysX for ATI HD series.

http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-38137-135.html
Click to expand...
HOLY SHIT!

article said:
On his first run, Eran got a 22,606 CPU score in 3D Mark Vantage, enhancing the overall score to P4262. A comparable system without PhysX-support will cross the finish line at about P3800.
Click to expand...

Thats a fucking 400 points increase, just by enabling PhysX. 3DMark is so fucking rigged it isnt funny anymore.

:lol @ Nvidia and its massive amounts of fail, they cant even cheat right.
 
well finally got my 4850 played CRYSIS (woohoo) on all on high and 2x aliasing. no slowdown except when something hit ur chute and the camera went all over the place.

Question

where do you view the temp of 4850 is it on the Cataylyst Control Center?

when i however my mouse on the system try icon it shows my res and next to is the temp? But it says 0. I wish that's true but i doubt :lol
 
bathala said:
well finally got my 4850 played CRYSIS (woohoo) on all on high and 2x aliasing. so slowdown except when something hit ur chute and the camera went all over the place.

Question

where do you view the temp of 4850 is it on the Cataylyst Control Center?

when i however my mouse on the system try icon it shows my res and next to is the temp? But it says 0. I wish that's true but i doubt :lol
Click to expand...
Maybe you dont have advanced options activated.
 
bathala said:
its grayed out i can't seem to click anything
Click to expand...

Odd.... does it say can't initialize? You either didn't completely uninstall the old drivers or you installed something like rivertuner or ATI tray(these tools can check your temp also).
 
bathala said:
got it.
it says 79 c. DAMN
Click to expand...

If you so worried, go check out ATI tray or rivertuner forum. They probably already have a new beta out that supports 4000 series, you can use the tool to increase the fan speed. I have a 3870, it used to be 70c, but I increase fan speed from 23% to 40% and got it down to 58c.
 
tenchir said:
If you so worried, go check out ATI tray or rivertuner forum. They probably already have a new beta out that supports 4000 series, you can use the tool to increase the fan speed. I have a 3870, it used to be 70c, but I increase fan speed from 23% to 40% and got it down to 58c.
Click to expand...

Neither have updated as of 2 days ago when I checked. I'm also waiting for one or both of them to update with the 4000 series so that I can turn my fan up.
 
Don't GPUs these days have any sort of dynamic throttling or voltage regulation? Seems kind of ridiculous having GPUs running anywhere from 50-70c just sitting idle on a desktop or doing basic 2D GUI stuff.
 
_leech_ said:
Don't GPUs these days have any sort of dynamic throttling or voltage regulation? Seems kind of ridiculous having GPUs running anywhere from 50-70c just sitting idle on a desktop or doing basic 2D GUI stuff.
Click to expand...

I read that current drivers for the 4000 series don't have powerplay enabled with cut down core and memory clocks in half for 2D stuff.
 
Kadey said:
So it appears the 9800GTX+ is head to head against the 4850. I'd considered both the new 8800GTs.
Click to expand...
GTX costs $200 and the GTX+ is $220, right?

GTX+ uses the 55nm process, as well, right?
 
does the 4850 have an HDMI port? On Newegg in the bulletpoints they all say they have an HDMI port via adapter, meaning DVI to HDMI?
 
Aumann said:
does the 4850 have an HDMI port? On Newegg in the bulletpoints they all say they have an HDMI port via adapter, meaning DVI to HDMI?
Click to expand...

Yeah, all the 48X0s have an adapter for hdmi.

HDMI output support

* All display resolutions up to 1920x1080
* Integrated HD audio controller with support for stereo and multi-channel (up to 7.1) audio formats, including AC-3, AAC, DTS, DTS-HD & Dolby True-HD4, enabling a plug-and-play audio solution over HDMI
Click to expand...

Middle
1214363351CrDBh6XGXC_2_11_l.jpg
 
_leech_ said:
Don't GPUs these days have any sort of dynamic throttling or voltage regulation? Seems kind of ridiculous having GPUs running anywhere from 50-70c just sitting idle on a desktop or doing basic 2D GUI stuff.
Click to expand...
2614375123_dfe37d32ee_o.png


Powerplay wasnt working at 3800 launch too, fix is incoming. Supposedly some people already have the new BIOS and are getting low 40C at Idle.

Kadey said:
So it appears the 9800GTX+ is head to head against the 4850. I'd considered both the new 8800GTs.
Click to expand...
Really? The 9800GTX+ performs very inconsistently.
Anandtech 9800GTX+ Review Conclusion said:
The Radeon HD 4850 continues to be a better buy than NVIDIA's GeForce 9800 GTX, even if both are priced at $199. The overclocked, 55nm 9800 GTX+ manages to barely outperform the 4850 in a few titles, but loses by a larger margin in others, so for the most part it isn't competitive enough to justify the extra $30. The 4850 also uses significantly less power than the 9800 GTX+, and AMD was quick to point out that by the time the 9800 GTX+ ships that it will also have factory overclocked 4850s. That should make things even more interesting, because honestly, a factory overclocked Radeon HD 4850 is far more attractive to us than an overclocked GTX+.

In a little over 12 hours we'll be able to complete the story with a full look at AMD's RV770 GPU and the Radeon HD 4870, so for a full, detailed performance analysis come back then. Until then, in short, the 9800 GTX+ doesn't really change anything for NVIDIA.
Click to expand...
 
Before you guys buy ATIs 4850 and 4870, look out another few months and get 4880 and 4890,


Here are some REAL TIME screenshots of the Cinema 2 GPU, the one to compete with Nvidia's 280 GPU

2585016023_341219cf32_b.jpg

Original Size: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/2585016023_ef12de41c1_o.jpg
From the AMD Cinema 2.0 demo "Bug Snuff," this is a frame capture of a real-time and interactively rendered scene. The demonstration of what AMD terms the “Cinema 2.0 experience” punches a sizeable hole in the sensory barrier that separates today’s visionary content creators and the interactive experiences they desire to create for audiences around the world. The Cinema 2.0 demo showed the fusion of dynamic real-time interactivity as in games with convincing cinematic digital effects that appear to be real places and things captured on video.
Click to expand...


2585849022_2dc42296fe_b.jpg

Original Size: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3085/2585849022_3443db26d6_o.jpg



Mind you, these are screenshots from thier Demo Video of Cinema 2 Graphics chip


Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT37b2QjkZc
 
irfan said:




Really? The 9800GTX+ performs very inconsistently.
Click to expand...

Not really. And I always considered guru3d the ultimate source of unbiased reviews. Screw all the others.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-9800-gtx-512mb-plus-review/12

" NVIDIA knew pretty well what they where doing by releasing the GeForce 9800 GTX+ a day before the Radeon HD 4850 release. Each card (4850/9800GTX+) wins and loses some. When you tally up, in the end I consider them both to be pretty equal. However I do feel strongly that the GeForce 9800 GTX+ must shift toward 199 USD as well as the 30 USD difference just seems too big. The 4850 has DX 10.1, the GTX+ has better thermals & cooling. Choices choices. Heck, I never said this was easy.
One of the most stunning facts for the GTX+ however was the flexibility in overclocking. I means seriously, this was the real deal for sure, we boosted the already impressive 728 core, 1836 shader and 2200 MHz clock frequencies pretty easily towards an amazing 860 MHz on the core, 2133 on the shader domain and 2490 MHz on the memory. That instantly will add another 15-20% performance towards your framerate. So tweaking wise this also is a very interesting product. Though in all fairness .. overclocking results can differ per batch and board partner.
Next to the smaller 55nm fab, internally some small features might have been altered as well. The GTX+ does seem to be a tad more efficient compared to it's 65nm counterpart. In fact is was performing precisely the same as the Black Edition GeForce 9800 GTX we just tested. Bang for your bucks people.
All this mid-range maddness is just grand, I mean two weeks ago a GeForce 9800 GTX would have cost you near 275-350 bucks, now you can get it for 199,- USD. At 229,- USD / 169 EUR this is just a superb product that will get you very good framerates in combo with excellent image quality settings pretty easily up-to 1920x1200. And that's just bloody brilliant. As stated, the product does need to come down towards 199 USD for it to really compete with the Radeon HD 4850. Unfortunately the design and more expensive and better cooler might prohibit just that. All in all, it surely is worth the money, yet I also realize you guys stare yourself blind at the price. And you know what ... ? You really should do that as for you it's about bang for buck. I'm merely stating, both the 4850 & 9800 GTX+ offer a lot of it.
If you got some dough to spare, now is a good time to pick up a 199-229 USD mid-range product my friend. Whatever card you choose, you will just not regret the purchase. The GeForce 9800 GTX+ definitely is a pleasure to have in your gaming rig, and you'll just adore it very much.
 
Kadey said:
Not really. And I always considered guru3d the ultimate source of unbiased reviews. Screw all the others.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-9800-gtx-512mb-plus-review/12

" NVIDIA knew pretty well what they where doing by releasing the GeForce 9800 GTX+ a day before the Radeon HD 4850 release. Each card (4850/9800GTX+) wins and loses some. When you tally up, in the end I consider them both to be pretty equal. However I do feel strongly that the GeForce 9800 GTX+ must shift toward 199 USD as well as the 30 USD difference just seems too big. The 4850 has DX 10.1, the GTX+ has better thermals & cooling. Choices choices. Heck, I never said this was easy.
One of the most stunning facts for the GTX+ however was the flexibility in overclocking. I means seriously, this was the real deal for sure, we boosted the already impressive 728 core, 1836 shader and 2200 MHz clock frequencies pretty easily towards an amazing 860 MHz on the core, 2133 on the shader domain and 2490 MHz on the memory. That instantly will add another 15-20% performance towards your framerate. So tweaking wise this also is a very interesting product. Though in all fairness .. overclocking results can differ per batch and board partner.
Next to the smaller 55nm fab, internally some small features might have been altered as well. The GTX+ does seem to be a tad more efficient compared to it's 65nm counterpart. In fact is was performing precisely the same as the Black Edition GeForce 9800 GTX we just tested. Bang for your bucks people.
All this mid-range maddness is just grand, I mean two weeks ago a GeForce 9800 GTX would have cost you near 275-350 bucks, now you can get it for 199,- USD. At 229,- USD / 169 EUR this is just a superb product that will get you very good framerates in combo with excellent image quality settings pretty easily up-to 1920x1200. And that's just bloody brilliant. As stated, the product does need to come down towards 199 USD for it to really compete with the Radeon HD 4850. Unfortunately the design and more expensive and better cooler might prohibit just that. All in all, it surely is worth the money, yet I also realize you guys stare yourself blind at the price. And you know what ... ? You really should do that as for you it's about bang for buck. I'm merely stating, both the 4850 & 9800 GTX+ offer a lot of it.
If you got some dough to spare, now is a good time to pick up a 199-229 USD mid-range product my friend. Whatever card you choose, you will just not regret the purchase. The GeForce 9800 GTX+ definitely is a pleasure to have in your gaming rig, and you'll just adore it very much. "
Click to expand...

It's pretty simple. If you like ATI, 4850. Nvidia, vice versa.
 
Kadey said:
It's pretty simple. If you like ATI, 4850. Nvidia, vice versa.
Click to expand...
I think it should be more like: "look at the games that you want to play and see what card plays them best" kinda thing :lol
 
Interesting news about raytracing on ATi:

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/38145/135/

Pretty expected with the open GPGPU stuff, fairly trivial coding a fast raytracer for either ATi or Nvidia hardware, will be interesting to see if it ever gets used.

Was intel right about raytracing after all? Will they be beat to the punch by AMD?

Even if fully raytraced games never take of, the new GPGPU capabilities could be leveraged to do awesome effects that aren't necessarily supported by the graphics APIs.
 
artredis1980 said:
Before you guys buy ATIs 4850 and 4870, look out another few months and get 4880 and 4890,


Here are some REAL TIME screenshots of the Cinema 2 GPU, the one to compete with Nvidia's 280 GPU

2585016023_341219cf32_b.jpg

Original Size: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/2585016023_ef12de41c1_o.jpg



2585849022_2dc42296fe_b.jpg

Original Size: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3085/2585849022_3443db26d6_o.jpg



Mind you, these are screenshots from thier Demo Video of Cinema 2 Graphics chip


Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT37b2QjkZc
Click to expand...

Ummmmm.... These were all demonstrated realtime on the 4850/4870s. I don't know where you are pulling this 4880/4890 and cinema 2.0 GPU stuff from. Just read this thread back a few pages and it's all there.
 
artredis1980 said:
Before you guys buy ATIs 4850 and 4870, look out another few months and get 4880 and 4890,
Click to expand...

Those are 4850/4870 tech demos. I don't know where you're getting the idea of the 4880 and 4890 but I'm pretty sure there has been no indication of them coming.
 
Just letting everyone know, don't buy the Visiontek 4870 at best buy.com. They don't have them in stock, I ordered mine and 2 hours later, I got a "On backorder" email. They said they won't get them for at least 2 weeks. But if your looking for a 4870 keep checking newegg, I got a powercooler 4870 yesterday and its already on a plane in route to my house. The Sapphire, Visiontek,His, and Diamond models are online but not available to buy yet but i would imagine they will be getting a small shipment very soon.
 
Kadey said:
Not really. And I always considered guru3d the ultimate source of unbiased reviews. Screw all the others.
Click to expand...
Guru3d? Unbiased? Sure! You could as well go ahead and say that Hardocp is unbiased .. :lol

The most balanced review sites out there (IMHO) are:
  • Techreport
  • Hardware France
  • Anandtech

Kadey said:
It's pretty simple. If you like ATI, 4850. Nvidia, vice versa.
Click to expand...
More like you like spending money into a 2 year old architecture versus spending money into a brand new architecture. :D
 
Kadey said:
Not really. And I always considered guru3d the ultimate source of unbiased reviews. Screw all the others.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-9800-gtx-512mb-plus-review/12

" NVIDIA knew pretty well what they where doing by releasing the GeForce 9800 GTX+ a day before the Radeon HD 4850 release. Each card (4850/9800GTX+) wins and loses some. When you tally up, in the end I consider them both to be pretty equal. However I do feel strongly that the GeForce 9800 GTX+ must shift toward 199 USD as well as the 30 USD difference just seems too big. The 4850 has DX 10.1, the GTX+ has better thermals & cooling. Choices choices. Heck, I never said this was easy.
One of the most stunning facts for the GTX+ however was the flexibility in overclocking. I means seriously, this was the real deal for sure, we boosted the already impressive 728 core, 1836 shader and 2200 MHz clock frequencies pretty easily towards an amazing 860 MHz on the core, 2133 on the shader domain and 2490 MHz on the memory. That instantly will add another 15-20% performance towards your framerate. So tweaking wise this also is a very interesting product. Though in all fairness .. overclocking results can differ per batch and board partner.
Next to the smaller 55nm fab, internally some small features might have been altered as well. The GTX+ does seem to be a tad more efficient compared to it's 65nm counterpart. In fact is was performing precisely the same as the Black Edition GeForce 9800 GTX we just tested. Bang for your bucks people.
All this mid-range maddness is just grand, I mean two weeks ago a GeForce 9800 GTX would have cost you near 275-350 bucks, now you can get it for 199,- USD. At 229,- USD / 169 EUR this is just a superb product that will get you very good framerates in combo with excellent image quality settings pretty easily up-to 1920x1200. And that's just bloody brilliant. As stated, the product does need to come down towards 199 USD for it to really compete with the Radeon HD 4850. Unfortunately the design and more expensive and better cooler might prohibit just that. All in all, it surely is worth the money, yet I also realize you guys stare yourself blind at the price. And you know what ... ? You really should do that as for you it's about bang for buck. I'm merely stating, both the 4850 & 9800 GTX+ offer a lot of it.
If you got some dough to spare, now is a good time to pick up a 199-229 USD mid-range product my friend. Whatever card you choose, you will just not regret the purchase. The GeForce 9800 GTX+ definitely is a pleasure to have in your gaming rig, and you'll just adore it very much.
Click to expand...

All I see is the 4850 beating the 9800GTX+ by wider margins, compared to when the GTX+ just barely eeks out the 4850 in others (hell it's even taking on the GTX260 at times), it supports more features, and is a brand new architecture which guaranteed is not fully optimized for yet. The performance will only go up from here. All for $30 less than the 9800GTX+.

As for your cooling issues with the 4850, it's already been stated many times in this thread that powerplay and fan control have not been implemented yet in the driver.

And as stated from above.
Anandtech said:
The Radeon HD 4850 continues to be a better buy than NVIDIA's GeForce 9800 GTX, even if both are priced at $199. The overclocked, 55nm 9800 GTX+ manages to barely outperform the 4850 in a few titles, but loses by a larger margin in others, so for the most part it isn't competitive enough to justify the extra $30. The 4850 also uses significantly less power than the 9800 GTX+, and AMD was quick to point out that by the time the 9800 GTX+ ships that it will also have factory overclocked 4850s. That should make things even more interesting, because honestly, a factory overclocked Radeon HD 4850 is far more attractive to us than an overclocked GTX+.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying the 9800GTX+ is a bad card, just that the 4850 is a much better card and cheaper. There's nothing in nVidia's lineup right now worth purchasing in comparison to the 4850 and 4870.

And seriously, fucking support DX10.1 nVidia.....

HardOCP said:
The Radeon HD 4850 is the new sub-$200 video card to beat as it provides the best gameplay experience for the money. It provides a better experience than a GeForce 8800 GT and a GeForce 9800 GTX and is on par with GTX 260 while being less expensive.
Click to expand...
 
Tenacious-V said:
All I see is the 4850 beating the 9800GTX+ by wider margins, compared to when the GTX+ just barely eeks out the 4850 in others (hell it's even taking on the GTX260 at times), it supports more features, and is a brand new architecture which guaranteed is not fully optimized for yet. The performance will only go up from here. All for $30 less than the 9800GTX+.

As for your cooling issues with the 4850, it's already been stated many times in this thread that powerplay and fan control have not been implemented yet in the driver.

And as stated from above.


I'm not saying the 9800GTX+ is a bad card, just that the 4850 is a much better card and cheaper. There's nothing in nVidia's lineup right now worth purchasing in comparison to the 4850 and 4870.

And seriously, fucking support DX10.1 nVidia.....
Click to expand...

You obviously didn't go through the benches. It's pretty much back and forth between the two.
 
irfan said:
Guru3d? Unbiased? Sure! You could as well go ahead and say that Hardocp is unbiased .. :lol

The most balanced review sites out there (IMHO) are:
  • Techreport
  • Hardware France
  • Anandtech

More like you like spending money into a 2 year old architecture versus spending money into a brand new architecture. :D
Click to expand...

Nope. I still stand by guru3d. They've got everything covered and it doesn't just pertain to basic computer stuff.

And the second statement goes with my comment about people being biased towards their respective manufacturer. You can't go wrong with either card regardless of what you think about it. The price to performance ratio is great. Yeah, the 4850 is a better card overall but anyone would be ignorant to downplay the latter as if it isn't as well.
 
Kadey said:
Nope. I still stand by guru3d. They've got everything covered and it doesn't just pertain to basic computer stuff.

And the second statement goes with my comment about people being biased towards their respective manufacturer. You can't go wrong with either card regardless of what you think about it. The price to performance ratio is great. Yeah, the 4850 is a better card overall but anyone would be ignorant to downplay the latter as if it isn't as well.
Click to expand...

arent the 4850s and 4870s supposed to compete with the Nvidia 9800 and 260 respectively? and them being half the price, they already beat them
 
artredis1980 said:
arent the 4850s and 4870s supposed to compete with the Nvidia 9800 and 260 respectively? and them being half the price, they already beat them
Click to expand...

Half of the price of the 260, yeah. But not the 9800GTX+.
I wouldn't even want to talk about the GT200s. Nvidia screwed them up badly in pricing.
 
SapientWolf said:
Damn. It might be time to build a new PC. What do mobos, memory, and Core 2s go for these days?
Click to expand...

All of them very cheap.

I built a new PC a year ago... mostly a mid-range rig. I purchased 2GB of this memory for $120.00.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145590

Now look at the price - $37.50. That's $18.75 per gigabyte.

The only reason why you may want to hold off on building a new PC right now is because there are no huge PC game releases coming out soon and Nvidia and ATI are going to be waging a price war in the next few months because they've both just released new generation video cards and the ATI cards are much better at price/performance. Nvidia is going to have to lower prices and I would imagine ATI will as well, in an attempt to try and get market share from Nvidia and keep themselves a step ahead on the price to performance ratio.
 
Kadey said:
The price to performance ratio is great. Yeah, the 4850 is a better card overall but anyone would be ignorant to downplay the latter as if it isn't as well.
Click to expand...
I think people are misunderstanding you, Kadey. I think what I just quoted was mainly your point all along, yes?
 
zoku88 said:
I think people are misunderstanding you, Kadey. I think what I just quoted was mainly your point all along, yes?
Click to expand...

Pretty much.
Regardless of what company you favor, the low to mid-range market is very nice at the moment.
If ATI can get the 4870X2 to $400 or slightly below $500, they'd own the high end as well; and completely.
Then Nvidia would have to get those refreshes out for cheap lest they want to just weather the storm but in the end, the consumers win. :lol
 
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