Support NeoGAF

[Gbraga]

Also the "run out of stamina and can't run until it's fully refilled" was in DS1 too.

Only if you keep holding the sprint button instead of letting go of it and pressing it again. Just correcting you, though, I don't think that's a bad thing at all. Don't think it's a good change either, it's whatever.

 

[jacksepticeye]

This gif sprung to mind immediately when I saw this thread but I couldn't find the pic (I didn't look very hard)

This shows how great Dark Souls 1's combat was. It's SO damn precise and when you got hit you knew it was your own damn fault for lingering a bit too long.

I've gotten hit by a tonne of bullshit during rolls in DS2

EDIT: Also looking at that Artorias gif reminds me how much of a badass he was. He was pretty damn scary when he went full rage mode

 

[epmode]

Maybe it's just the 60fps but DS2 feels a lot better to me.

Didn't you play DS1 at 60 FPS?

 

[Gbraga]

EDIT: Also looking at that Artorias gif reminds me how much of a badass he was. He was pretty damn scary when he went full rage mode

I always taunt him when he's going super saiyan. Though with the Zweihander I always stop him just because it feels amazing to stop him with one hit. What a dumb weapon.

 

[jacksepticeye]

I always taunt him when he's going super saiyan. Though with the Zweihander I always stop him just because it feels amazing to stop him with one hit. What a dumb weapon.

He's one of those bosses that felt REALLY good to beat when I fought him first.

Plus he's the most badass looking too. I love his armor, sword and even the colour theme going on with him

Also Zweihander <3

 

[Ysiadmihi]

Didn't you play DS1 at 60 FPS?

Not entirely since it would cause issues.

 

[Gbraga]

He's one of those bosses that felt REALLY good to beat when I fought him first.

Plus he's the most badass looking too. I love his armor, sword and even the colour theme going on with him

Also Zweihander <3

He's really fucking good. What a fantastic DLC. I always make sure to play through it on my runs, it makes post-lordvessel Dark Souls a lot better.

 

[eot]

It was a full ballista shot, all the arrows hit him. It wasn't half the health bar, he had full health. One more hit and he is dead.


Some guys were analyzing the gif and the only part of the character that could have been hit by it was the tip of the foot. Yeah, with higher adaptability it wouldn't have hit, but it shouldn't hit even if the player had 0 ADP.

If the tip of the foot should count, the character should only have taken some damage, not the full grab. That's the problem to me.

Agreed, but that's not a hitbox problem and it's not indicative of the rest of the game. They should've just implemented that attack better.

This gif sprung to mind immediately when I saw this thread but I couldn't find the pic (I didn't look very hard)

This shows how great Dark Souls 1's combat was. It's SO damn precise and when you got hit you knew it was your own damn fault for lingering a bit too long.

I've gotten hit by a tonne of bullshit during rolls in DS2

EDIT: Also looking at that Artorias gif reminds me how much of a badass he was. He was pretty damn scary when he went full rage mode

I've ducked under plenty of enemy attacks in DkS2.

Adaren: that's it, the visuals and hitboxes are off by your own admission. Our eyes decieve us: the weapons are much bigger than they look and IF it was a tuning issue, it MAY had been one done in desperation to inject difficulty (something I'm coming to agree with the Matthew guy more and more after consideration) by any means necessary. Not by AI patterns, not by sheer functionality of attacks, not by damage, but by monkeying with hitboxes, which exacerbates the ADP adoption.

Pixel/polygon-perfect gameplay has been reknowned as the goal for action for decades for a reason. There were always messy, unoptimized, loose combat and those games got their lunches ate by the SMB, Megaman, Street Fighters, etc of the world who knew to make hit/hurtboxes fair, accurate and the fighting memorable.

Would our old friend Astorias be as beloved as a bossfight if you came up from this down HP or being grazed by a gauntlet being as damaging as a center-mass blow?

This does neither and goes against it. This could very well be a mistake, I will go to bat saying maybe ADP has a hand in it and didn't work well as they implemented it. Maybe they got careless tuning and broke hitboxes/enemy spins to do that. But it isn't quality like what came before, and it comes off like a crutch in any means. We correct so they can learn.

You have way more iframes in your roll in Dark Souls so it's hard to say anything about the actual hitboxes from gifs like that.

 

[Gbraga]

I've ducked under plenty of enemy attacks in DkS2.

True, fighting against the Smelter Demon I only dodge the first hit of his combo and then I take advantage of the second one completely missing me to hit him one more time than usual. I was actually quite surprised by how good that fight was, from the gifs used to show the dumb hitboxes I was expecting it to be infuriating, but it's my favorite boss fight so far.

I did have 98 Agility when I got there though, so there's that.

 

[Vaporak]

True, fighting against the Smelter Demon I only dodge the first hit of his combo and then I take advantage of the second one completely missing me to hit him one more time than usual. I was actually quite surprised by how good that fight was, from the gifs used to show the dumb hitboxes I was expecting it to be infuriating, but it's my favorite boss fight so far.

I did have 98 Agility when I got there though, so there's that.

People like to play up how bad the hitboxes are in DS2 with things like the pursuer gif. But the reality is that DS1 had it's fair share of hitbox issues, and in both games they are the exception not the norm.

 

[ElFly]

Agreed, but that's not a hitbox problem and it's not indicative of the rest of the game. They should've just implemented that attack better.

I've ducked under plenty of enemy attacks in DkS2.

You have way more iframes in your roll in Dark Souls so it's hard to say anything about the actual hitboxes from gifs like that.

In Dark Souls 1 the roll was almost a "teleport out of trouble instantly" button, it had more i-frames, and travelled farther, faster, but in the right conditions, funky things can happen too.

I can't be bothered to create a better gif, but this is the beloved Super Ornstein (gif at half speed)

The player rolls under the lance, still gets hit once the roll ends; do note that the roll is waaaay shorter than the height of the lance sweep so, even without i-frames, Ornstein should have missed.

The source

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7yYyCOYz6E#t=261

In that same video, Ornstein grabs a player a little off and the player also teleports into the middle of the grab. It's not as drastic as in the Pursuer case, but the principle applies; if the attack touches you, you are teleported into it.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Agreed, but that's not a hitbox problem and it's not indicative of the rest of the game. They should've just implemented that attack better.



I've ducked under plenty of enemy attacks in DkS2.



You have way more iframes in your roll in Dark Souls so it's hard to say anything about the actual hitboxes from gifs like that.

Handled already in that post.

In Dark Souls 1 the roll was almost a "teleport out of trouble instantly" button, it had more i-frames, and travelled farther, faster, but in the right conditions, funky things can happen too.

I can't be bothered to create a better gif, but this is the beloved Super Ornstein (gif at half speed)

The player rolls under the lance, still gets hit once the roll ends; do note that the roll is waaaay shorter than the height of the lance sweep so, even without i-frames, Ornstein should have missed.

The source

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7yYyCOYz6E#t=261

In that same video, Ornstein grabs a player a little off and the player also teleports into the middle of the grab. It's not as drastic as in the Pursuer case, but the principle applies; if the attack touches you, you are teleported into it.

That lance swipe hits lower than the jump back one plus it followed the player with the trajectory right on the blade; unless the iframes lasted over a second, he's toast. And with quickrolling, the lightning rod skewer gets him getting up. (It's the one where Ornstein predicted the roll was interesting; I've never seen that in any of my attempts.)

And "teleport out of trouble instantly" is in a reductive way, exactly what it is: iframes with timing, direction, and STM being the restrictions.

 

[epmode]

Not entirely since it would cause issues.

You should try it again! It's only an issue when sliding down ladders and a handful of places where you actually have to make a jump. I probably wouldn't have bothered if it wasn't so easy to toggle between 30 and 60 FPS.

Honestly, DS1 is worth a replay just to see the new framerate.

 

[Kieli]

Artorias is the sex. Shits over all DS2 bosses.

Fake edit: meant to quote that gif. You can feel the strength behind his swings. Master swordsman, indeed. Lost sinner, hold that L.

 

[AwakenedCloud]

I perfectly remember the three fat demons (asylums, firesage) doing their butt attack. They would fall down, you would run to attack them, and, if you ran too early, you would be hit away by ???? That was a phantom hitbox not only displaced in space, but in time too.

Pretty sure a dust cloud appeared around where they landed, and they had a small AOE property to them. You definitely didn't take as much damage as being directly under them.

 

[jacksepticeye]

I've ducked under plenty of enemy attacks in DkS2.

Never said it was impossible to do. It just doesn't feel as precise as in DS1.

DS1 still had issues but altogether felt like a tighter controlling game with less glitchy bullshit. You have to slow an Onstein gif to half speed to really nit pick at parts of it to show faults in DS1's hitboxes yet the pursuer and ruin sentinel gifs are full speed and WAY more obvious

 

[Rickenslacker]

This gif sprung to mind immediately when I saw this thread but I couldn't find the pic (I didn't look very hard)

What if the gif is a lie and he actually poised through the damage????

Bet no one thought of that! :O

 

[jacksepticeye]

What if the gif is a lie and he actually poised through the damage????

Bet no one thought of that! :O

Or what if it's just really good hitboxes? The lack of impact effects would make that the more plausible option

 

[Rickenslacker]

Or what if it's just really good hitboxes? The lack of impact effects would make that the more plausible option

I was joshin', but lack of sparks is a good point anyway. Kind of cool to appreciate now since they're understated.

 

[ElFly]

Handled already in that post.



That lance swipe hits lower than the jump back one plus it followed the player with the trajectory right on the blade; unless the iframes lasted over a second, he's toast. And with quickrolling, the lightning rod skewer gets him getting up. (It's the one where Ornstein predicted the roll was interesting; I've never seen that in any of my attempts.)

And "teleport out of trouble instantly" is in a reductive way, exactly what it is: iframes with timing, direction, and STM being the restrictions.

The point was that the roll was way better in DS1; that's not a design problem in DS2, just a difference. But it exposes that people are worse at the game than they thought because they trusted the roll to get them out of trouble. In DS2 you just have to roll better.

Ornstein's Lance should not have hit the player. He rolled under the lance. Iframes or not, the lance hit the air, because the player at that moment is around half the height. The player clearly stands and the lance already stopped its movement, and then he is hit. In some ways, this is worse than the Pursuer gif; Pursuer could be argued to hit the feet of the player. Dunno what is hit here.

DS1 still had issues but altogether felt like a tighter controlling game with less glitchy bullshit. You have to slow an Onstein gif to half speed to really nit pick at parts of it to show faults in DS1's hitboxes yet the pursuer and ruin sentinel gifs are full speed and WAY more obvious

It's not that it has less glitchy bullshit; it's that the roll had more speed and invincibility so people got out of trouble easier. I just slowed down the gif because I am a nice guy. It is seen just as easily in the full speed youtube. Slown down or not, the real thing that is happening here is that the roll isn't as lenient as in Dark Souls 1 (which is why most people don't remember those cases, but as the gif shows, hitboxes weren't as perfect in DS1 either), and people think the game is worse because it showcases their own mistakes.

 

[gioGAF]

On console, specifically PS3, the tight player and camera control has been on a downward spiral since Demon's Souls. Demon's Souls controls the best by far, Dark Souls 1 is a backward step, but still serviceable. Dark Souls 2 is like DkS1, a backward step from the previous installment.

 

[AgentOtaku]

And it is very intentional in that series as well, which is why I'm pretty sure they're doing this on purpose.

It's kind of silly. In Monster Hunter, I can defend it as they're sort of repeatedly refining their formula in a vacuum. There's nothing wrong with that, especially when the fans seem to love it that way. With Dark Souls, it feels a bit regressive and out of place for a series that began with very fine controls.

Exactly

I just don't understand it other than it was a different team and it just didn't register with them?

 

[Poimandres]

I played the original Dark Souls first, and going back I thought it felt better than Demons *Shrugs*

 

[giancarlo123x]

I feel like im watching an ESPN play by play or some shit with all these stills.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

I perfectly remember the three fat demons (asylums, firesage) doing their butt attack. They would fall down, you would run to attack them, and, if you ran too early, you would be hit away by ???? That was a phantom hitbox not only displaced in space, but in time too.

Bro thats an AoE attack. You can see the shockwave.

On console, specifically PS3, the tight player and camera control has been on a downward spiral since Demon's Souls. Demon's Souls controls the best by far, Dark Souls 1 is a backward step, but still serviceable. Dark Souls 2 is like DkS1, a backward step from the previous installment.

Yeah, I'm getting really annoyed at how the speed is regressing.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

The Lost Sinner did this to me as well..

Lost Sinner has a stupidly large hitbox and tons of active frames on its thrust. Fight gets way easier when you stop trying to dodge that insanity and just block it.

 

[mickcenary]

The saddest thing about this thread is that that Artorias gif has more soul in it (excuse the pun) than anything in DS2. The design, atmosphere and memorability was just off the charts in DS1.

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

I've learned that rolling later in DkS2 compared to when I'd roll in DkS1 has helped a lot.

 

[eot]

I've learned that rolling later in DkS2 compared to when I'd roll in DkS1 has helped a lot.

Odd. I feel like have have to dodge earlier.

 

[d0nd]

did the same its okay?

 

[AgentOtaku]

The saddest thing about this thread is that that Artorias gif has more soul in it (excuse the pun) than anything in DS2. The design, atmosphere and memorability was just off the charts in DS1.

I played about 2 hours of DK2 before giving up and returning it to my friend.
Just this morning I restarted my copy of DK1 instead and holy shit does this statement bellow so much truth.
DK2 is a goddamn mess artistically.

 

[heiyu]

when i had the less agility possible that also happened to me, after lvling up agility i started not to get hit in the rolls

 

[Tiops]

The one thing I don't like about Dark Souls II hitboxes is that they're almost too good.

Thanks, was going to post this.

If people really think that Pursuer should have grabbed me in that gif because it touched the tip of the foot of my character and think that the black knight gif doesn't show how much better the hitboxes were in the first game, then there's nothing I can say anymore.

If anyone is interested, there's a fight against pursuer that I've recorded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-mdbhh4Qro. Awesome hitboxes, really.

 

[Someone47]

I have noticed some wonky hitboxes/animations at The Gutter with those four legged fur-less beasts. I lose health before their attack animation has even started, ! lose health-> I raise shield-> their attack animation.

I should probably raise my ADP.

 

[SeventhSon]

I have noticed some wonky hitboxes/animations at The Gutter with those four legged fur-less beasts. I lose health before their attack animation has even started, ! lose health-> I raise shield-> their attack animation.

I should probably raise my ADP.

Yes, those beasts have a swipe that does phantom hits on you, even when you side step or back away.

 

[sublimit]

Yes, those beasts have a swipe that does phantom hits on you, even when you side step or back away.

Are these the same kind of creatures that you find behind a hut in Majula?

 

[Respect]

Are these the same kind of creatures that you find behind a hut in Majula?

Negative, he isn't referring to the Majula Piglet hit squad.

Spoiler

Hairless Hounds in the gutter is what he is talking about.

 

[banjoted]

Hitbox bickering aside, for what it's worth I went from finishing DSI on PC to playing DSII on PS3 and I found it really stodgy and hard to get to grips with. I instantly found DSII on PC far more agreeable to control.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Thanks, was going to post this.

If people really think that Pursuer should have grabbed me in that gif because it touched the tip of the foot of my character and think that the black knight gif doesn't show how much better the hitboxes were in the first game, then there's nothing I can say anymore.

If anyone is interested, there's a fight against pursuer that I've recorded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-mdbhh4Qro. Awesome hitboxes, really.

wow thats atrocious. Just look at where your getting hit (where the blood effect comes from). It really seems the team did this on purpose to make ADP relevant.

 

[sublimit]

Negative, he isn't referring to the Majula Piglet hit squad.

Spoiler

Hairless Hounds in the gutter is what he is talking about.

Ah ok i haven't been in the Gutter yet.But the same thing that SeventhSon described happened to me with those stupid pigs the first time i fought them.They never touched me but somehow i was loosing HP.

 

[AgentOtaku]

I agree Matthewmatosis' critique about the franchises' foundation being that of one on one and that DKII wanting to just fuck you up with iceskating hordes of dudes this time around as often as possible.
I can cope with the crowd management, but that doesnt make it anymore fun or challenging. Just drawn out and tedious.

Sorry if im getting off topic...

 

[SeventhSon]

Ah ok i haven't been in the Gutter yet.But the same thing that SeventhSon described happened to me with those stupid pigs the first time i fought them.They never touched me but somehow i was loosing HP.

There's lots of enemies that do that. The hit box problems are more wide spread than just specific bosses.

 

[ElFly]

Bro thats an AoE attack. You can see the shockwave.

Yes, you can see the shockwave go out, and still be hit after it disappears.

 

[kick51]

this game is getting worse with each thread lol

unfortunately, it takes a lot of time and dissection to really find things like this in a game like Dark Souls since reviewers don't do their job (or are so untrustworthy that no one even listens.)