OK, well, IF her teenagers feel that way, they would be wrong and they'll learn to appreciate her taking a stand for herself, when they are older and wiser. Someday, when someone is misrepresenting them to others, they'll reflect on how their mother had the courage to tell her side of the story. (And if they haven't already, someday they're going to really reflect on what their father did to their mother, and it will change how they look at him).
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Kai Cole, Joss Whedon's Ex-Wife, calls him out as a 'Hypocrite Preaching Feminism'
- Thread starter Goodstyle
- Start date
OK, well, IF her teenagers feel that way, they would be wrong and they'll learn to appreciate her taking a stand for herself, when they are older and wiser. Someday, when someone is misrepresenting them to others, they'll reflect on how their mother had the courage to tell her side of the story. (And if they haven't already, someday they're going to really reflect on what their father did to their mother, and it will change how they look at him).
The problem is that his wife (allegedly) saw some red flags and expressed her concern to him (before any damage was done), and he dismissed her concerns by flashing his feminist badge towards her (and then things got worse and worse and worse, until he became a serial cheater, all the while continuing to proudly flash his feminist badge at people).
The brand of feminism that Whedon allegedly believed in (and used to assure his wife that nothing was wrong), said that feminists aren't capable of being led around by their penises.
Whedon (allegedly) failed at his incorrect brand of feminism.
jordan0386
Member
Should've just asked for a plus one.
shanshan310
Member
As the child of a separated couple whose dad left after serial cheating, this actually made me lose even more respect for him. You don't get to fuck over your wife and kids and then pretend your wife is the one messing the kids up because she doesn't stay quiet about what you did.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Yeah, it just means you don't respect their equality as a life partner or mother of your multiple children.
As an above user posted, Buffy was way ahead of its time with a strong female lead. Which is why Dollhouse, which is a a direct parody of that concept, sickens me. If Cole's timeline is true, it makes sense because Buffy was the very start of Whedon's tumble down the hill.
At some point you have to weigh the importance of going public against the collateral damage it does to the rest of your family. In this case I'm not sure if it was really worth it since these allegations won't really sink Whedon's career anyway. It's also a huge leap of faith to think that your kids will come around to your side later on. I can't imagine the abuse and taunting that the kids will suffer, especially now that social media bullying is such a big problem. I certainly hope that this doesn't end up alienating them from their dad or their mom.
...you're still completely discounting the responsibility Whedon has, for the way his children may be feeling right now. Everything you write, assigns all of the responsibility to the mom. Telling the truth isn't what's going to hurt his children and it's certainly not the mother's fault, that this is the truth.
shanshan310
Member
100% this. If whedon didn't want to hurt his children, maybe he shouldn't have cheated, split the family, and given their mother ptsd.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
I'll also point out that if infidelity is where I end up drawing a line for whose movies I'll see, then I'm probably swearing off of movies. My line is a bit further than that at domestic abusers and shit.
Jest Chillin
Member
This doesn't take into account what the kids themselves will have to face from strangers, press, and peers for the rest of their lives. What they'll hear about both their parents from the aforementioned not to mention what they hear from each parent about the other.
Things of this nature are generally better told in private when kids are emotionally mature enough to hopefully lessen the hurt they feel.
Outside looking in perspectives don't have the context or information that their mother does. So one can only hope for the best for her and them. I certainly am not foolish enough to judge. The point that I'm making is especially in the case of famous figures, public airing of these kinds of things can result in unintended parties getting hurt. And with all forms of emotional pain, it's not clear cut right or wrong in terms of feeling pain.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Zoey, Inarra, Kaylee
What is this nonsense? Jesus, lol
1) No, it's not? It's its own story, about an inept, cowardly soldier who served with Zoey and Mal, and there's that joke at the end where this does happen, and it's funny. This is a ridiculous misrepresentation of that episode, and I don't even like that episode much (it's probably the worst one, though even a mediocre Firefly episode is still pretty good TV).
2) Yeah, and he's made to look like a complete fool later on. What's your point?
3) Again, what's your point?
And Dollhouse is a whole other can of worms, but calling it "Nice Guy: The Series" makes absolutely zero fucking sense.
According to her, she's responding to Whedon's continued use of their marriage as a shield. It seems obvious she initially took the route you suggest, but if Whedon (in his obviously public life) is misrepresenting their marriage, at some point the blame is on him, for forcing her to comment. He's basically arguing that she's obligated to protect his lies, for the sake of the children, even though the well being of the children wasn't enough to compel him to treat their mother with respect. That's an awful message.
radios shipping overview
Member
Cheating on your wife with your female employees makes you a creep.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
My point is that Whedon has a habit of using his status as a "high ranking Hollywood feminist" to write stupid shit like this.
I'm not discounting his culpability so much as I'm saying that the kids probably will blame their mother. I don't expect them to have the kind of perspective that we do. It's all purely speculative though.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
So what are the wives supposed to do?
Like Cosby's wife must have known her husband was a creep/raper but said nothing because she wanted to protect the family. Is that the solution?
It's hollywood, and it's 2017. Everyone is sleeping with everyone. Not saying this excuses cheating of course, but it most certainly isn't a surprise lol. You go anywhere, and if you are able to take care of yourself even a little bit then chances are you gonna have a good night. lol
Jest Chillin
Member
I think the phase of "using the marriage as a shield" isn't as cut and dry as you think it is. He's not literally saying, "look at my marriage it proves I'm a feminist." She's using it more as a figure of speech.
The tricky thing is, he may be figuratively using their former marriage as a shield, or he may be keeping their private issues private for the sake of her and the children, or it could be both. She may feel differently about his motives than what his motives actually are, or maybe she's spot on, or maybe it's both.
Maybe she does feel forced to comment. That doesn't mean he actually is actively or passively forcing her to do so. And her feelings are valid either way. It's complex precisely because so much is determined by emotions and pain.
I feel the publicists comment goes too far in stating that Kai Cole's statement is definitively harmful to the family. At the same time Joss not commenting can still come from a desire to spare both the children and his Ex-Wife from further pain. Acknowledging that doesn't excuse Joss from anything or place blame on Kai Cole. It is simply recognizing that it's not a black and white situation.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Except... no? I knew nothing of Whedon when I first watched Firefly, and found nothing problematic whatsoever about those scenes. Seems like you're either projecting, or looking for ways to go "ah-ha! I knew he was a creep! see?!".
Bobo Dakes
Member
This is that shit.
in a thread of half-baked takes this takes the half baked take cake "lol"
It kind of blows my mind that you think the most likely outcome is that the children will blame their mom. So, when other children comment on the terrible things their father did, you think the children will think to themselves: "This is all mom's fault, because she talked about it." Instead of blaming their father for doing terrible things? I'd imagine the most likely outcome is that they side with the other teenagers and their mom, and citizens their dad too.
I think that's kind of different situation. If your privileged knowledge could prevent someone from assaulting others against their will, then you're at an obligation to make their predatory nature public. Marital infidelity isn't really the same as rape. If one of your partners cheated on you and you had a huge social media audience/platform, would you go out of your way to make those mistakes known to a wide audience?
Like I said, going public with family business is a huge taboo. I don't expect kids or teenagers to have a logical or rational thought process. I think the end result is that they wouldn't "side" with their mother or father. They'd just feel alone and helpless amongst a ton of press and social media backlash.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Is no one safe from being milkshake ducked?
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I mean I think she has a right to point out his hypocrisy, particularly if he's using his position of power in an uncomfortable manner. This would be the same if someone outed a vegan for eating meat or an athlete for using steroids.
Bobo Dakes
Member
This "family business" tied into his professional brand though. The point of the article is to say "Hey, this revered feminist is a fraud, here's why", not "Joss cheated on me, let's all gang up on him and hate him".
Also, are you more bothered by him being outed as a cheater than him cheating? Because if that's the case, what's the point of this discussion especially if you're bringing up how it affects the kids.
MoonsaultSlayer
Member
I'm reading his "Greek disease" quote as the women using HIM and his position of power and he not being able to say "no". Not him using his power to get with the women.
Pretty sure it's a reference to King Midas? Made a wish that thought would bring him happiness, but then couldn't touch anything.
Pretty corny and offensive to his wife. Don't think it has anything to do with him using women or women using him.
In the context of a society where we just elected an admitted philanderer to the presidency, what does tarnishing his brand really accomplish? At the end of the day, she's sacrificing the normalcy and stability of her loved ones to land a glancing blow on her ex. Whether or not it's worth the sacrifice is up to you. It's ultimately a case of whether or not being a whistleblower does more harm than good.
.
Yes it does. If indeed that's what he said. We have one person's account. And a deliberate attack piece.
It might be true. I have no idea. But the article is a deliberate assault on his character from someone who is diagnosed with a serious mental condition. Maybe her ptsd was caused by his behavior. But I have no other information beyond its account. Maybe people will start coming out of the woodwork now.
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
Still a huge fan of his work.
This, to me, is the interesting thing about this. If it's been going on since the late '90s then he's managed to keep a lid on it for an impressively long-time. No hit-pieces, no weird comments from (as examples) Charisma Carpenter, Eliza Dushku or Summer Glau, or even older women like Olivia Williams. No people (men or women) going on the record as unwilling to work with him, even now. Okay, sure, he's not Roman Polanski, but still... Maybe this will open the floodgates for people to say "Oh, yeah, he hit on me," or "We had a torrid affair". But considering how little power he's had over his career - only relatively recently being someone who could guarantee to draw in big crowds - it's probably the thing I'm most surprised about here.
I don't think this should taint his work... If (like Wuvcraft) you can't stand his work because of the bad writing, that's one thing. But in a world where people still watch Woody Allen or Roman Polanski films, people should still be able to stomach Whedon's material, and not be made to feel like shit for it.
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
I'm all for people having strong principles and taking a stand against content creators who offend their sensibilities... People need to be held accountable for their behavior. I just typically let my enjoyment of content end at the screen, and tend to try to enjoy art and entertainment in a vacuum as much as possible.
If what this post says is true, then he is indeed not a good person. But I'm still gonna re-watch Cabin in the Woods and Dollhouse next month regardless.
Charisma Carpenter has been on the record as saying that as far as she could tell Joss got angry with her for getting pregnant, so he basically destroyed her character before firing her. She said this on a panel almost ten years ago. She said it in about the nicest way a person can express that sentiment, but yeah.
About that 100th episode, Charisma only cane back because they swore they wouldn't do that ending. Then did it anyway. Joss is a prick.
lol some feminist.
If he became angry at her because she married and was pregnant you could put that down to jealousy which is still a crap reason to write someone off, but if he wrote her off solely because she became pregnant, that is something someone that supports feminism would not have done.
Yeah I concur. Seems.like the dude was a real piece of shit to his wife and his family, but I don't quite see how that intersects with feminism?
The ending to that episode was beautiful and one of the best moments in the Buffyverse. What are you talking about exactly?
They asked her if she'd come back. She said yes, so long as Cordelia didn't die. They assured her that wasn't going to happen. Then they gave her a new script just as shooting started.
It was a lovely moment until that came out. Then it struck me as really manipulative and cruel of the production team.
Do you have a source for this?
Re: Angel ep 100. Probably worth reading the wiki for it. Considering the initial episode plan, which was knocked on the head due to SMG being unavailable, it wouldn't surprise me about saying one thing to CC and the script being different. But, at the same time, I would think that that script change was due to the different direction they wanted to go in. Considering David Fury is also listed as writer, I don't think Whedon can be blamed for it. Or at least, blamed in the sense of "I'm going to be a dick to this actress". More likely he just realised it wrapped-up the character nicely, and helped move the story along for the final arc.
By all means, if someone wants to show me the source where someone says they did it for other reasons, I'm good with that. But *shrugs*
By all means, if someone wants to show me the source where someone says they did it for other reasons, I'm good with that. But *shrugs*
not psycho
Member
Unless Whedon has preached fidelity as a form of feminism, this doesn't make him a hypocrite. It's like a vegetarian who eats fish. You can consider them a bad vegetarian, but it doesn't make them a hypocrite unless they preached a vegetarianism that doesn't allow eating fish.
It seems like he is aware of his shortcomings (regarding Buffy):
I didnt make a point of hiring female directors. I didnt make a point of hiring people of color, he says. I wasnt necessarily part of the solution. I was, say, right in the middle?
So, he's probably not and never was a great feminist, but he also might not be a hypocrite about it, if the level of feminism in his work matches up with the level of feminism he preached.
It seems like he is aware of his shortcomings (regarding Buffy):
I didnt make a point of hiring female directors. I didnt make a point of hiring people of color, he says. I wasnt necessarily part of the solution. I was, say, right in the middle?
So, he's probably not and never was a great feminist, but he also might not be a hypocrite about it, if the level of feminism in his work matches up with the level of feminism he preached.