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[HeelPower]

When I play fighting games I just roll with whoever I like and whoever I feel I can kick ass with. I'm not interested in detailed stats so fighting elitists can create those oh so precious tier lists.

I don't like the idea of fighting games basically revolving around a numbers game. I prefer to get my ass whipped by someone who is experienced rather than the guy with the frame data book on his lap.

Frame data is stupid and players should just put in the time until they have a good idea of what feels good and what feels bad. I can't stand seeing players asking what moves are "safe", that's just ruining the game in my opinion.

Flame away GAF.

Framedata make the game as logical as it can be.

Framedata aren't stupid, you aren't changing anything in the game when you learn about them.

Framedata rules apply in the game whether you are aware of them or not.

Also most people don't want to play by "feelings" if they want to get anywhere.

They don't "simplify" or dumb down the game.There are tons of things to learn besides just them.

 

[gigantor21]

That line of thinking makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Casual players won't give a shit about frame data, and if you need to hold that kind of information back to artificially sharpen the learning curve at advanced levels then the game must not have much depth to stand on it's own anyway. And I know that Tekken isn't one of those games.

Developers need to be working to remove as many barriers to learning fighting games as possible. Even when you have all the pertinent info laid out in front of you, they're still difficult to play at a competent level. Plus the intricacies of advanced play vary wildly from one game to the next, even within the same franchise.

 

[Ninjimbo]

Personally, I have never used frame data for any of the characters I have decided to play in any game. It goes against my nature and I have attained elite status without it.

I don't have a problem with people who use it. I do have a problem with the culture surrounding the use of the data. I don't like the number talk. I don't like the players who use the data like a cheat sheet. I don't like how the community uses the data as a basis to dismiss characters. It's all needlessly convoluted, making the games seem more complicated than they actually are.

 

[tiggerkiddo]

Having all the knowledge to you doesn't mean much if you can't apply it.

I guess I just can't agree with him.

 

[Biker19]

Personally, I think this is a very old fashioned and outdated way of thinking. The days of building a community on how to perform fatalities instead of just making a solid fighting game (Not saying that Mortal Kombat 2 isn't solid, just saying that hiding simple move lists went a long way to adding to the popularity at the time) are long gone.

IMO, Mortal Kombat (& Killer Instinct) would've been long irrelevant if there were no blood, gore, fatalities, etc. in the picture.

There are plenty of fighters that have proven that you don't need to have blood, gore, fatalities, etc. to have a good fighter. Series like Tekken, Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Virtua Fighter, Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, Capcom/Marvel fighters, Persona 4 Arena, Last Blade, Samurai Spirits (Save for Samurai Spirits Zero Special), etc. have proven that.

 

[HeelPower]

Personally, I have never used frame data for any of the characters I have decided to play in any game. It goes against my nature and I have attained elite status without it.

I don't have a problem with people who use it. I do have a problem with the culture surrounding the use of the data. I don't like the number talk. I don't like the players who use the data like a cheat sheet. I don't like how the community uses the data as a basis to dismiss characters. It's all needlessly convoluted, making the games seem more complicated than they actually are.

lol it doesn't that's a huge misconception.

You are playing the same game as those using the "numbers" and you can't play outside those rules.

Even if you chose to ignore them you are bound by them.

A move that's punishable will remain punishable whether you choose to be aware of it or not.

People who hate framedata are just afraid of dedicating anytime into them.

They are extremely simple to understand and use but hard to obtain reliably.

 

[Dahbomb]

Frame data = Cheat sheet

Now I have heard everything...

 

[shtkn]

frame data is like a periodic table: it tells you details about the moves you use, but not the nuances and the all applications of said moves.

i don't see why people dislike having published frame data. the game remains the same regardless, and if someone wants to use it to try to improve themselves, why would you want to stop them? whether they use it well or not is no reason to withhold the information.

 

[theprodigy]

Personally, I have never used frame data for any of the characters I have decided to play in any game. It goes against my nature and I have attained elite status without it.

I don't have a problem with people who use it. I do have a problem with the culture surrounding the use of the data. I don't like the number talk. I don't like the players who use the data like a cheat sheet. I don't like how the community uses the data as a basis to dismiss characters. It's all needlessly convoluted, making the games seem more complicated than they actually are.

tell us more about your "elite status"

 

[Skilletor]

Personally, I have never used frame data for any of the characters I have decided to play in any game. It goes against my nature and I have attained elite status without it.

I don't have a problem with people who use it. I do have a problem with the culture surrounding the use of the data. I don't like the number talk. I don't like the players who use the data like a cheat sheet. I don't like how the community uses the data as a basis to dismiss characters. It's all needlessly convoluted, making the games seem more complicated than they actually are.

Lol.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

What does it take to achieve elite status?

 

[AAK]

Not surprised that we almost universally disagree with Harada on this one. As far as getting Harada to see this feedback, where's MarkMan at?

If Harada does see this, I hope he also finally notices the hard work Flying Wonkey puts into advertising Tekken and hires him as the actual replacement to FilthyRich as the community manager of Namco.

 

[Manbig]

What does it take to achieve elite status?

Not learning frame data and discovering the "feel" of the moves apparently.

 

[oneida]

What does it take to achieve elite status?

I don't know how much you know about achieving elite status (I'm an expert)

 

[MarkMan]

Bandai Namco Games of America already has a community manager. His name is "J" ! Really cool guy.

Also, this has been Harada's take on frame data as long as I've known him personally/as a friend. I asked him about this a long time ago and they even showed me their black box system when I visited the Tekken floor (secret area in Bandai Namco's HQ).

I understand each and every one of his points. My counter point is, the community should work hard to try and find out the frame data (like we always do). I mean, there are some games that have FD equipped and are often times wrong, right? We might as well check/calculate.

That's how it was done for guides, community pages, and wikis since the beginning anyways.

That's just my two cents. If they don't want to give the info, I'm not gonna hate.

 

[DEATH™]

I'm gonna quote myself on this...

whether people like it or not, we are talking about it. Look, Harada's right that it kills the discovery period of the game. If we got frame data readily available INGAME, then would a newbie asking Rip in a session/stream of how punishable a move is, happen? They can even test the thing out right there and then. Would a guy like me not download Tekken Chicken due to it? How about the people who find ina-tekken inaccurate?

Believe it or not, those little things aren't just frame data discussion. They are social experiences. And those social experiences add to the game experience. We are talking to another person, not the computer. Giving things away like this in game deprives us of the times where we shout "WTF Feng is cheap" in front of our friends, or searching something up and finally punishing a move you got trouble with. Those ecstacy/frustration/experiences becomes associated with Tekken, and in part, makes Tekken, well, Tekken...

This is why I applaud Harada. Can't expect anything less from a psychology major.

Please take note that when it's nice to have official frame data in a competitive player standpoint, I would just as equally hate what it will do when it's added INGAME.

I understand his point that it does take away from the discovery process in a sense that we tend to just stick in front of the console, instead of testing them out and letting everyone know, or going to the website and asking/commenting on the forum. Those things makes a community active. Not only you learn, you also interact with people along the way, and maybe make friends. Or even teach them to others. If you have a offline session? You can test stuff out with a friend if you are unsure. Those social interactions, no matter how small, make the overall community active and also adds up to the gaming experience.

It's the same reason why arcades are a pretty good place to be as a FG player despite having consoles. You go there to meet other people. You learn with them, and/or you mentor them.

Look... if you think good online netcode killed offline Tekken, just imagine if all the data you will ever need is also handed out by the game itself! Nobody will bother going to TZ/KTA!

Besides, In Tekken, frames don't tell the whole story. It's a combination of block stun + opponent recovery frames + crush frames + status + hurtbox + your punishers. In the end, people are still gonna test them out for themselves...

 

[Nestunt]

give me what you did in Tekken 3 but for PS4

 

[danmaku]

Harada talks like that because he comes from an arcade background. Forget about frame data, in an arcade you don't even have a move list! You need to discover everything by experimentation, and watching other players, and this means more coins in the cab. Sure, it's also a social experience, but those times are long gone and besides, playing fighting games is a social experience anyway. You still need communication to get better. VF community didn't suddenly die after they included frame data in the game.

Moreover, frame data is like a dictionary or an encyclopedia. You don't memorize it blindly, you play normally and when you're in doubt about something (people almost never punish this move, but is it really safe?), you check it.

 

[ZeroX03]

The idea behind Harada's thinking - something that is probably not common to many of you - is that it applies very well to the arcade scene style of play. I grew up in that scene, you talk and socialize. You question players, saying something like "is that 10f", "does that crush high?", etc. That was part of the experience, part of learning how to play the game and moving up the scene. A huge chunk of that is gone now thanks to the internet and YouTube.

A very common thing I see now is Tekken players who learn the frame data and juggles online and then show up to tournaments with no idea how they're applied against a real life human opponent and fall to pieces as a result. It is annoying and I do think learning through playing rather than reading is the best way to improve. Knowing Paul's shoulder is -16 is not the same as being conditioned to launch it or lose. That instinct is important and not something practice mode can teach you (and online can be detrimental to players in many ways).

I also get that for most of you as console players, that's annoying. You don't socialize in the same way and rely on practice mode/online play for that sort of thing. I can't say I overly sympathize though, mainly because where possible I will always choose the arcade or meet-up scene and think it's best for others to do the same.


So I'm fine with Harada's choice regarding frame data. I don't think making it readily available will help the player base, I just think people will mistake learning it for actual experience. But hey, if it's in console releases only, arcade players should still have a year head start on doing things their way anyway.

I mean, there are some games that have FD equipped and are often times wrong, right? We might as well check/calculate.

Translation: Injustice's frame data was completely useless. And VF5FS isn't exactly booming, so let's not pretend that frame data in Tekken would suddenly make it a more accessible and popular game. And as far as quality goes, VF and Tekken's latest entries are much better than SF and MvC but that doesn't stop them from having a big audience.

 

[PrivateRyan]

I can't say I overly sympathize though, mainly because where possible I will always choose the arcade or meet-up scene and think it's best for others to do the same.

I grew up in the arcade scene too. And even then, there were people around moaning about how the internet had changed things - players copying tactics they had seen on YouTube (or combovideos.com or denjinvideo.com as it was pre-YouTube!), going to SRK for combos, etc. instead of discovering things for themselves.

The argument was nonsense then and this modern version of FRAME DATA IS RUINING THINGS!!!111 is nonsense now. The more the community knows, the better its potential is to become good at its chosen game, the more everyone has to level up to compete. It has always been that way.

I agree with that players shouldn't overly rely on frame data but honestly, it's not an argument as to why frame data shouldn't be included. Players will find frame data online, if they want to - the difference is that a smaller percentage of players will seek that frame data out versus the percentage that will have it available in the game to start with.

Frame data was useless for Injustice, yes, but that's on NR for screwing it up. Does NR screwing it up really make for an argument that frame data shouldn't be included? Also VF wasn't booming outside of Japan before or after it started including frame data - trying to associate its the state of its scene with its decision to include frame data is entirely dishonest and you know it.

 

[ZeroX03]

I grew up in the arcade scene too. And even then, there were people around moaning about how the internet had changed things - players copying tactics they had seen on YouTube (or combovideos.com or denjinvideo.com as it was pre-YouTube!), going to SRK for combos, etc. instead of discovering things for themselves.

The argument was nonsense then and this modern version of FRAME DATA IS RUINING THINGS!!!111 is nonsense now. The more the community knows, the better its potential is to become good at its chosen game, the more everyone has to level up to compete. It has always been that way.

The argument isn't that frame data is ruining things, it's that players memorizing it online rather than learning it through play is detrimental to the skill of the fanbase. I think that a player who learns frame data through actively playing the game is going to be far more successful than a player who memorizes it as numbers on a screen.

Are you still an active arcade player? I went in to play Tekken today. The new young players who are good are the ones who are there actively playing and learning and discussing the game, while the kids who stay at home and watch tournaments and memorize frame data are floundering. It's been this way for years. Same with online players, they're just not as good and fall into predictive patterns.

Like are you trying to argue the average skill level of a Tekken player has increased with the proliferation of frame data? It hasn't. I post on TZ, I've discussed the information there and worked on strategies with other players. Discussing it in context of actual games and not numbers on a chart.

Frame data was useless for Injustice, yes, but that's on NR for screwing it up. Does NR screwing it up really make for an argument that frame data shouldn't be included? Also VF wasn't booming outside of Japan before or after it started including frame data - trying to associate its the state of its scene with its decision to include frame data is entirely dishonest and you know it.

People in this thread were insinuating that Tekken's popularity would increase / reason for sales decline were affected by frame data's lack of inclusion. VF5FS included it and it didn't help, it's not dishonest it's just the fucking truth. My point was the opposite, VF included frame data and it didn't help.

 

[DerZuhälter]

Maybe I'm reaching and please tell me if I do so but: How big is the FGC anyway? The people who care about the intricacies of frame data.
Back in day T3, and TTT2 still builds on that old core, sold around 7m units.
So 1% or less of those buyers?
TTT2 sold immensly worse. Percentage-wise the FGC take a much bigger stake of the sales now, but still: It doesn't really change anything sales wise and I don't believe that FGC can make or break a game (saleswise).
Only a small amount of people outside of the FGC take notice of EVO and other FG tournaments.

To me personally: If the FGC wants it. Give it to them. As a mediocre, casual player competing, if I am at all, I'd only compete with other gamers outside the realm of the FGC. Without trying to be condescending, but the FGC is "a very to themselves" high level community and I feel it isn't even trying to extend their reach. Maybe someone can link to that Youtube Clip of a "scrub" beating a pro at a (UK?) live tournament and the caster making fun of the pro aswell as the scrub unable to contain his laughter for the entire match.

Compare that to casting in MOBA games or StarCraft 2, which is a lot easier accessible and not... well that hard to comprehend, or at least making an effort to involve lower skilled players stronger into the cast.

 

[LeleSocho]

He's right, it takes the fun out of the game.

 

[Loona]

I'm now expecting to see a paid frame data viewer option DLC for Tekken Revolution in the near future.

 

[Village]

When I play fighting games I just roll with whoever I like and whoever I feel I can kick ass with. I'm not interested in detailed stats so fighting elitists can create those oh so precious tier lists.

I don't like the idea of fighting games basically revolving around a numbers game. I prefer to get my ass whipped by someone who is experienced rather than the guy with the frame data book on his lap.

Frame data is stupid and players should just put in the time until they have a good idea of what feels good and what feels bad. I can't stand seeing players asking what moves are "safe", that's just ruining the game in my opinion.

Flame away GAF.

Concider most people who play games with any type of fighting in it, even if it isn't a fighting games knows more about frame data and hit boxes than one would think. I do not agree with you, this is a genre where this would specifically help, why you hold that back from people.

 

[oneida]

He's right, it takes the fun out of the game.

How

 

[Griss]

I'm not big into fighting games but I'd buy one a year and play it fairly casually. As a casual player the idea of learning frame data is complete anathema to me.

When I see people arguing who's better or worse based entirely on frame data I check out. Similar to how theorycrafting ruins the fun of RPGs.

That said, if players are just going to find out and use it themselves I'm not sure what benefit it does to keep it locked away. A lot of game genres are dealing with this issue these days - puzzles and secrets lose their appeal when the vast majority of your users will go to the game wiki within 2 minutes of realising that there's something to figure out. My take is that if your players are doing that you might as well provide it yourself and take out the middle man. It's a shame, though.

Nothing like the first couple of days in a new game like Demon's or Dark Souls where you're on your own - and most importantly opponents are on their own, and you're not running into a bunch of cookie cutter builds. Also frustrating when people roll through a game using a guide and then say 'that game was easy'. Well, you'll never know how hard it would have been if you weren't using a guide, idiot! Classic example is how all of my friends thought that the Drake Sword made early game DS easy. But every single one of them would have found out about that sword online. Got a bit off topic there, but them's my two cents.

 

[Passive Assassin]

Maybe I'm reaching and please tell me if I do so but: How big is the FGC anyway? The people who care about the intricacies of frame data.
Back in day T3, and TTT2 still builds on that old core, sold around 7m units.
So 1% or less of those buyers?
TTT2 sold immensly worse. Percentage-wise the FGC take a much bigger stake of the sales now, but still: It doesn't really change anything sales wise and I don't believe that FGC can make or break a game (saleswise).
Only a small amount of people outside of the FGC take notice of EVO and other FG tournaments.

To me personally: If the FGC wants it. Give it to them. As a mediocre, casual player competing, if I am at all, I'd only compete with other gamers outside the realm of the FGC. Without trying to be condescending, but the FGC is "a very to themselves" high level community and I feel it isn't even trying to extend their reach. Maybe someone can link to that Youtube Clip of a "scrub" beating a pro at a (UK?) live tournament and the caster making fun of the pro aswell as the scrub unable to contain his laughter for the entire match.

Compare that to casting in MOBA games or StarCraft 2, which is a lot easier accessible and not... well that hard to comprehend, or at least making an effort to involve lower skilled players stronger into the cast.

I wouldn't say that the guy was a pro player, more like an online player. I don't see the issue with frame data being readily available. It'll be easier for new players to find out which moves are safe and unsafe on block, frame advantage, etc.

 

[Xater]

How

Maybe he is having fun counting frames himself. lol

Yeah, I could also not disagree more with Harada. This data should just be provided to the players so everyone can just start getting into the good stuff of these games. And if you are new to these games then no one is forcing you to look at the data, but wouldn't it be nice to have it easily available once you might want to up your game?

I was never good enough at any fighting game to really care about frame data, but it's always nice to know that if I really want to know something I can look it up.

 

[Pociask]

I really, really, really don't understand the hypothetical scenario described in the OP. He describes a conversation between a beginner and an advanced player, and the beginner is asking about frame data?

I'm coming at this as pretty much a button-masher in fighting games. I don't have have anything invested in them. That hypothetical beginner conversation? I have no idea what they're talking about.

Including frame data in a game seems to come out as a wash for real beginners. As in, it's good to take the gameplay systems from behind the curtains, but the information presented would be meaningless to newbs. I think you're already at a fairly skilled level when you're talking about safety after a move - I think the less skilled players are mostly concerned about "How did you do that cool looking move?"

I think about how in chess, beginners are taught that each piece are worth a certain value of points. It's a neat little shortcut that lets new players understand that it's worthwhile to trade your bishop for a rook, and that a knight is better than a pawn. Would putting that information in the chess box somehow ruin the game? Of course not. I don't understand building a game around a mythical "discovery period." A good game is good when the "secrets" are figured out.

 

[ShinobiFist]

Bandai Namco Games of America already has a community manager. His name is "J" ! Really cool guy.

Also, this has been Harada's take on frame data as long as I've known him personally/as a friend. I asked him about this a long time ago and they even showed me their black box system when I visited the Tekken floor (secret area in Bandai Namco's HQ).

I understand each and every one of his points. My counter point is, the community should work hard to try and find out the frame data (like we always do). I mean, there are some games that have FD equipped and are often times wrong, right? We might as well check/calculate.

That's how it was done for guides, community pages, and wikis since the beginning anyways.

That's just my two cents. If they don't want to give the info, I'm not gonna hate.

I didn't know what Frame data was in the 90's, lol. I just play and adapt *shrugs* If the person does a move that looks unsafe and I attack, but they hit me first, I embedded in my head the move is safe. That's the way always play and still do

 

[ec0ec0]

He's right, it takes the fun out of the game.

I will not even start playing a fighting game if it was not posible to have the frame data. The frame data IS the game ( theres a lot more but you get the idea). It would be a nightmare to not have it.

Well, playing smash bros with your friends without frame data is ok and still fun.

 

[Skilletor]

These are some seriously stupid responses.

Frame Data would exists with or without the developer giving it to us. If you have ever realized that you can do a move and attack before your opponent can, or thought that your jab/strike/whatever would hit before your opponent could, if you have ever blocked a move and thought to punish with an attack, you have used frame data.

In short, if you have EVER played a fighting game, you have used frame data. That you are ignorant of the specifics and its applications doesn't mean anything other than that you're ignorant.

 

[Manbig]

I didn't know what Frame data was in the 90's, lol. I just play and adapt *shrugs* If the person does a move that looks unsafe and I attack, but they hit me first, I embedded in my head the move is safe. That's the way always play and still do

That's fine and some really talented players have gotten quite far with only that. Anakin is a pretty good example. The thing is, how about the situations where you do a safe move that is blocked, but you're at too many negative frames to sidestep, backdash, or crush? How about the situations where a move is safe on block, but absolutely WAY worst on whiff than moves that are actually NOT safe on block (e.g: Lars u/f4 vs generic hopkick.) So many people think of frame data as only a way to classify what is safe vs what is unsafe, or what is quick versus what is slow.. What is equally important is what your options are in a -1/-2/-3 scenario vs a -7/-8/-9 scenario.

You see, Anakin did get very far with that mindset, but as shown on the most recent episode of ATP Live, even he knew that he had to learn frames to make smarter decisions and adapt during matches. If you really care about getting better, you are only holding yourself back by not knowing this information.

On a side note, a few people have brought up the whole people judging characters solely based on frame data thing. Those people will exist whether he includes the frame data or not. The people that know better will simply shut those idiots down. Most of the discussion that goes on with level headed people about the game in the stream chats, forums posts, Facebook groups, etc are more about overall move properties rather than just frame data. I don't like the idea of these pseudo-intellectuals having such a strong influence on this decision for Harada.