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Kickstarter and Linux: Are devs misusing crowdsourced funding for a vocal minority?
- Thread starter Ignis Fatuus
- Start date
charlequin
Banned
In general I support any project that intends to release a mobile version choosing to port to the biggest mobile platforms, but in part it's a matter of plausibility. Right now, iOS/Android ports are extremely viable for games that start out targeting them because there are a variety of middleware engines and toolsets (like Unity) that support both platforms natively. Until WP7 has similar middleware penetration, actually porting to it will not be all that plausible.
It's true that Linux isn't quite the same as, say, OSX for this, because anyone running Linux at home who's interested in PC gaming will indeed probably dual-boot into Windows anyway. However, the goal isn't really to turn Linux into a first-class gaming system; it's to build its ecosystem up to something like the one on Mac, where enough titles are available that someone using that OS can have some options for gaming.
But thats what I have trouble understanding. Why anyone who think it worth the effort to fight for more games on Linux when it will always lag behind Windows and even Mac.
Getting Windows or even an new machine for games, isn't that expensive. A cheap gaming PC can play most games just fine.
It doesn't matter if there aren't very many Linux users, it's their platform of choice and they may ask for games on it. And it's the developers' choice if they think it's worth porting. That way both sides get to express their interests. And is not a fight to bring Linux on par with Windows or Mac game content-wise.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
why is it a developer's choice when they are getting their funding from people who aren't themselves?
since when does crowdsourcing give power to a developer?
the legitimate way to be doing this is setting up another kickstarter for the linux port. if they didnt plan on doing it initially then they shouldnt have done it. then people can vote with their money if they really wanted to have a linux port.
Since people gave money on the premise of trust to make a product that more or less meets the original vision. It is developers' choice as long as they are not compromising the product, something that is guaranteed by the developers in this case. Crowdsourcing is not a process where developers make the game one wants, rather it's a process where one helps developers realise their vision.
As for why your money should go towards Linux port if you don't like it, your money might very well go towards some elements in the game you don't like either. Would you then question why it was a developers' choice to put those elements in?
As for the original plan, it may change. Brian Fargo did not say anything initially about bringing in Avellone, should he have not done it since it wasn't the initial stated plan?
As for Linux users voting with their money, how do you know they have not already done in this case?
A much cheaper console can also play most games just fine.
hikarutilmitt
Member
If this were always followed, then we never would have had any game systems beyond the NES. Why bother making another platform and games for that platform if it's not the market leader?
Why should I support local burger chains when McDonald's sells more?
Why should I support indie games when money is constantly being poured into so-called AAA titles?
Why do soft drink companies still make much lesser-selling drinks and flavors if Coke and Pepsi sell the most for them?
It's important to have choices for things and more choices being supported is never a bad thing. Why should I have to spend $100+ for a Windows license when a freely downloadable OS that runs my games will work just fine?
To be honest, on the same exact machine, UT99 ran much better for me in Slackware than it did in Windows. I had no idea it could run that smooth without upgrading my entire PC, at the time.
Lol a this thread.
If you do not want to pledge for a game which has Linux support then don't. it is that easy. If Windows user don't want a Linux version just remove your pledge. If Shadowrun then goes back to the original funding level, because there are not enough Linux supporters, then there is only the base version for Windows. You can always buy the game later on Steam anyway...
If you do not want to pledge for a game which has Linux support then don't. it is that easy. If Windows user don't want a Linux version just remove your pledge. If Shadowrun then goes back to the original funding level, because there are not enough Linux supporters, then there is only the base version for Windows. You can always buy the game later on Steam anyway...
charlequin
Banned
Well, as an example: I have a Windows machine but I'm typing this on a computer that runs OSX/Linux (and it'd just be Linux if there were a good ultrabook cheaper than the Macbook Air.) I'm never going to play, I dunno, Crysis 4 on it, but I like that I can use it to play adventure games or SpaceChem or whatever on the road without having to get another copy of Windows (and a few years ago I would have really appreciated that it'd play World of Warcraft.)
Good Job Bob
Member
Their are plenty of "good" ultra books cheaper than the MBA.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
yes. why wouldn't i?
maybe not. if a game starts out as a puzzle game and then ends up being a top down shooter, then what is stopping the developer?
because the developer added it afterwards as a supported format?
Ah, so to you, crowdsourcing is 'design by committe'?
Why would you think these kickstarter developers would change the original vision so drastically? And if you think they are capable of that, why would you even support them? Again, trust is the whole premise of backing kickstarter projects. If you don't trust, don't support.
And how do you know there weren't any, with Linux as platform of their choice, that backed the project before the port announcement? In this very thread you'll find a backer who increased the pledge from $15 to $60 because of the announcement.
As somebody who would love to be able to fully use Linux 24/7 as their OS, I still back games that are initially Windows only, but announcing Linux support is a great way to get my attention and entice me to donate more. I own Dungeons of Dredmor on both Steam and Desura just so I can play it on Windows, OSX, and Linux
How much do you like multiple times booting into different OS's on the same computer or frequently switching computers/display inputs?
I have both Linux and Windows on my machine, but I rarely boot into Windows. Why? Because I just don't like it that much.
So, why wouldn't I want more games to come out on Linux so I don't have to boot into Windows.
I should actually check Desura out. Installing it now.
I'm a Linux user and donated to Double Fine Adventure before a port was announced, despite the fact that if it was Windows only I would have no way to play it. I understand too that Linux users apparently donate on average significantly more for the Humble Indie Bundle, so perhaps there is a viable market.
This is a bit off topic, but to the Linux users complaining about rebooting: why not run Linux in a VM on Windows? That's what I do. This way, I can do all my gaming on Windows (and run Windows applications such as Photoshop and Visual Studio natively), while everything I want to do on Linux -- eg. having 20 ssh sessions to different servers open over 4 workspaces -- works perfectly in the VM. I never need to reboot. The only drawback is that you need a lot of memory if you want to keep the VM running, but DDR3 is laughably cheap at this point.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
highspeeddub
Member
Yes, it is a waste of money to port the game to linux.
The game should be written using open source libaries from the beginning, so that it can be built for both Windows and Linux.
The game should be written using open source libaries from the beginning, so that it can be built for both Windows and Linux.
Well, I mean, that's more like using Windows as your main machine and Linux as your guest, which is somewhat backwards if you consider Linux your main OS...
I mean, I guess you could fullscreen the VM so that it would be just like using Linux as your main OS... Assuming that you don't do anything resource intensive.
I actually have a Windows on a VM in Linux. It works alright. Performance is kind of meh-ish.
Even if they did restrict themselves to only using open/cross platform opengl, they would still have to port. They would probably have some OS specific API calls somewhere.
There's really no functional difference. With VT-x CPU performance is almost entirely unaffected by running in the VM (I measured this since I couldn't believe it). You can even forward OpenGL acceleration. Really it comes down more to a psychological hurdle of "I'm running all of this on Windows".
Well yeah, that's the point. The things you do on Windows (playing games, multimedia stuff, use hardware that has no linux drivers) suck on a VM. The stuff I (and I imagine most people) run on Linux isn't affected at all.
highspeeddub
Member
They can abstract that stuff out from the beginning.
Look at Firefox. When a new Firefox release comes out, it is not 'ported' to different OSs, it is built to different OSs, because the code has been written to be cross platform.
Is the code for this Shadowrun remake really going to be more complicated than the code for Firefox?
As far as I'm concerned, everyone who contributes to Kickstarter is a vocal minority. And based off the Humble Bundles, Linux users are big spenders for these type of things. So they should probably quit crying (and being a vocal minority themselves) and accept Linux contributors are bringing in a net positive of money.
I find this hard to believe, though. Windows runs worse than my Linux install. So, if I'm doing something intensive on my Linux install (which I frequently do), I doubt it'd they would perform so well. I mean, at least when I have my VM running, I often see that my CPU usage (which I monitor constantly thanks to conky <3) skyrockets a lot, even with VT-x (I'm pretty sure VT-x still has overhead. Though, I'm not sure what you do with your Linux install.)
And, fo course, my main workflow complaint would be the inability to put a strategy game in a separate workspace.
Well, I was talking more about the general feel of it than playing games. Like... the interface of it. I think, even if you had VT-d (which I don't,) I think it still wouldn't perform as well.
That's true, but I think Mozilla built those things and looking at their code, there are a lot of places where there's a check for which compiler you're using (gcc, whatever you use on Windows, etc).
It seems kind of hack-ish. (the only reason I've looked at their code, btw, is because I was trying to get it to compile using icc. I never got it to work, btw.)
I also couldn't believe it, as I said, so I measured it using SpecCPU. Almost no difference. (What I do is mostly compiling btw)
I know that the Windows interface sucks when run as a guest on Linux, but the other way around I can't tell a difference to native. With virtualized GPU acceleration it even feels perfectly snappy with fancy desktop composition enabled.
I'm not trying to "sell" this here, I just want to say that I find it to be working much better than many people (me included) would expect.
while you were replying, I was actually looking for benchmarks. I actually found this one (a bit old) http://www.anandtech.com/show/2480/12
Apparently, you're right, for pure CPU workloads there is little difference. Unforunately, apparently, for high memory tasks (which, for this article, is a kernel compile... which I didn't think seemed that memory intensive) it appeared to have huge hits. Since I use gentoo, it doesn't seem like something I would want to do.
Sorry, it's like 5AM here, so my replies might seem antagonistic or something. I just have a lot of disbelief when it comes to comparisons between native and virtualized.
I'm not sure how your suggestion would do with my workload, but maybe sometime I will give it a try. (though, I have other annoyances with Windows so I would do so reluctantly.)
BTW, you should come to the linux noobs thread sometime. We have fun! lol
I would be interested in seeing compiling benchmarks, since it's something I have to do a lot. In terms of time to compile and average CPU utilization. I think the reason why I don't find anyway is because, apparently, it's against VMware's TOS.
starbunny64
Banned
I find it really absurd how Linux users are perceived to be a species of their own with no possibility of ever using another OS...
Anyway, from my perspective Linux-only users are selfish for wanting developers to go out of their way to add support for a minority and Windows-only users are selfish for not wanting to fund another platform's version. On whichever side you're on, it just boils down to not donating if you don't agree with the developer's plans.
Edit:
It's quite an interesting thought; would both Windows and Linux users be happy with a chunk of money taken out for a console port?
Anyway, from my perspective Linux-only users are selfish for wanting developers to go out of their way to add support for a minority and Windows-only users are selfish for not wanting to fund another platform's version. On whichever side you're on, it just boils down to not donating if you don't agree with the developer's plans.
Edit:
It's quite an interesting thought; would both Windows and Linux users be happy with a chunk of money taken out for a console port?
Technosteve
Banned
linux fans secretly want all games to be written in java and open gl
I'm fine with just about anything as long they deliver on their promises. It's not like they have to use funds beyond their goal to fund more aspects of the project. There would be nothing wrong with them pocketing it.
mysocksarepink
Banned
The few users who use Linux absolutely love telling people just that... that they use Linux.
I know one topic of discussion that's always brought is the fact that, oh.... nobody makes games for us, or, X,Y, and Z aren't payable on Linux!
So when something like kickstarter happens the Linux users come out in full force, "Oh but Linux users cannot donate to the game being Windows/MAC? LOSING MONEY!!!" Etc etc.
I believe the devs see this and likely believe that
A) there are more Linux users than there are
B) if they build it... they will come (which I'm glad has been proven otherwise)
C) that Linux users are strictly using Linux
Most Linux users I know also use Windows to game.
Honestly, I think its a huge waste of money of the vast majority if pledges. That money could be used for more gameplay ... and in the end that's a win for everyone. Linux users know they need Windows to game..
We are the 99%!
/opinion
I know one topic of discussion that's always brought is the fact that, oh.... nobody makes games for us, or, X,Y, and Z aren't payable on Linux!
So when something like kickstarter happens the Linux users come out in full force, "Oh but Linux users cannot donate to the game being Windows/MAC? LOSING MONEY!!!" Etc etc.
I believe the devs see this and likely believe that
A) there are more Linux users than there are
B) if they build it... they will come (which I'm glad has been proven otherwise)
C) that Linux users are strictly using Linux
Most Linux users I know also use Windows to game.
Honestly, I think its a huge waste of money of the vast majority if pledges. That money could be used for more gameplay ... and in the end that's a win for everyone. Linux users know they need Windows to game..
We are the 99%!
/opinion
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
You've got such a large paintbrush, you might as well just start throwing paint cans around.
Beautifully Shaped Monsters
Member
I find it absurd that this is being developed for Windows. Linux is free for everybody, and everybody has access to it. They should concentrate on that and put more content into the game.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
I highly doubt Java is a popular language among those who use Linux.
If more games came to Linux I wouldn't need Windows in the first place!
charlequin
Banned
You guys know that these specific points were both addressed, like, literally just a few posts up, right? Have you considered reading the thread and participating in the ongoing discussion?
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Yes, but you already have Windows man.
It's like how I'm a virgin and because I've never known the touch of a woman I should expect to never be with a woman.
Damn why can't anyone understand my cyclical, self-eating logic?
wolfmat
Confirmed Asshole
It's not very popular. In fact, it's rather problematic.
It's popular with Solaris folks, but that's a Unix, not a Linux.
Why throw away money to fix something when there are two perfectly viable alternatives in place? Hell, the money would probably be better spent on an Android port at this point.
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Yeah, I knew it. Honestly I think Windows guys love Java the most, that's where I've seen the majority of Java development.
Anecdotally, I'm kind of a Linux guy and I'm growing more estranged with Java by the day. The language is fine but the technology itself just grates me. Without Android, Java would be worthless.
fixed
I don't use Windows. Linux is running on my Desktop-PC and I have an older MacBook Pro with Snow Leopard on it. I don't play that much, but I payed for all the Humble Bundles (checking Mac/Linux on each). And I played/tried most of the games on my Linux-box. I would byu comercial software for linux, if I want/need it, but I use mostly open-source on both OSes.
yeah, most people just don't get it (yet). just wait for the first kickstarter project failing and people whining about it.
I highly doubt it. Porting a game to a completely different platform (touch-based-devices like iOS and Android) is much more difficult. Windows, Mac or Linux - they are all "PC" in the first place. You have a keyboard/mouse combination on all of them and well known display devices and sizes. Touch-screen-only requires touch-screen-only controls, which (can/tend to) make the game simpler. And Shadowrun is an (more or less hardcore) RPG game. I don't see anyone bitching about iOS and Android...
Oh, I like your simple way of thinking. Okay, let's say, Shadowrun Returns will be a hardcore RPG. Who plays RPGs in the first place? Geeks. What system are most geeks using? Linux. And the other way: Macs are used mostly by hipsters. Are hipsters going to play Shadowrun? No. Why not? Because it's not Angry Birds.
See - simple thinking is fine, isn't it?
It's not really hard. It not hard and costly at all if you plan the Linux version from the beginning. If you code from scratch, and you consider - say - Windows, Mac and Linux versions from the beginning, you choose your programming language, your tools and libraries which suits you best. Just don't use stuff like Java, Cocoa, ObjectiveC, XNA, DirectX, Quicktime etc. I would say that at least 90-95% of the code can be written cross-platform. The last 5-10% would be platform-specific, like sound or input code. If you choose to use Libraries like SDL, SDL_mixer and/or APIs like OpenGL or OpenAL your code would be the same on all platforms. As sound format of choice OGG is widely used nowadays - the usage of the library is the same on all platforms.
If you plan to support iOS and Android - fine make sure your base code is platform-independent, write ObjectiveC and JNI wrappers for it and extra Renderer (both use OpenGL ES ie). Oh - and the Touchscreen-Interface...
But you don't seem to be a programmer. Portable-code is much, much better to handle and therefore the overall quality of the code-base is higher. And I'm not speaking of just using #ifdef _PLATFORM_IS_LINUX #else code-blocks overall - what would be just bad code design.
For me it is not the question whether it's expensive or not. I just don't need it and don't use it. I don't dual-boot and don't have windows running as a VM. If one game don't get a linux release, I'm fine with it. If it's known to work fine with wine - I take a look if I'm interested in the game. But wine isn't really a solution. Most of Cider-based Mac "ports" sucks too.
The same here. I like Schafers games, the older and the newer ones. So I saw the whole Kickstarter-thing as a donation. I didn't expected a Mac/Linux version to be announced.
and why would they? why don't you switch to linux? see... same thing.
Andrex said:
yeah, most people just don't get it (yet). just wait for the first kickstarter project failing and people whining about it.
DTKT said:
I highly doubt it. Porting a game to a completely different platform (touch-based-devices like iOS and Android) is much more difficult. Windows, Mac or Linux - they are all "PC" in the first place. You have a keyboard/mouse combination on all of them and well known display devices and sizes. Touch-screen-only requires touch-screen-only controls, which (can/tend to) make the game simpler. And Shadowrun is an (more or less hardcore) RPG game. I don't see anyone bitching about iOS and Android...
Pachterballs said:
Oh, I like your simple way of thinking. Okay, let's say, Shadowrun Returns will be a hardcore RPG. Who plays RPGs in the first place? Geeks. What system are most geeks using? Linux. And the other way: Macs are used mostly by hipsters. Are hipsters going to play Shadowrun? No. Why not? Because it's not Angry Birds.
See - simple thinking is fine, isn't it?
CecilRousso said:
It's not really hard. It not hard and costly at all if you plan the Linux version from the beginning. If you code from scratch, and you consider - say - Windows, Mac and Linux versions from the beginning, you choose your programming language, your tools and libraries which suits you best. Just don't use stuff like Java, Cocoa, ObjectiveC, XNA, DirectX, Quicktime etc. I would say that at least 90-95% of the code can be written cross-platform. The last 5-10% would be platform-specific, like sound or input code. If you choose to use Libraries like SDL, SDL_mixer and/or APIs like OpenGL or OpenAL your code would be the same on all platforms. As sound format of choice OGG is widely used nowadays - the usage of the library is the same on all platforms.
If you plan to support iOS and Android - fine make sure your base code is platform-independent, write ObjectiveC and JNI wrappers for it and extra Renderer (both use OpenGL ES ie). Oh - and the Touchscreen-Interface...
DTKT said:
But you don't seem to be a programmer. Portable-code is much, much better to handle and therefore the overall quality of the code-base is higher. And I'm not speaking of just using #ifdef _PLATFORM_IS_LINUX #else code-blocks overall - what would be just bad code design.
Kayhan said:
For me it is not the question whether it's expensive or not. I just don't need it and don't use it. I don't dual-boot and don't have windows running as a VM. If one game don't get a linux release, I'm fine with it. If it's known to work fine with wine - I take a look if I'm interested in the game. But wine isn't really a solution. Most of Cider-based Mac "ports" sucks too.
Polari said:
The same here. I like Schafers games, the older and the newer ones. So I saw the whole Kickstarter-thing as a donation. I didn't expected a Mac/Linux version to be announced.
shiptoncraig said:
and why would they? why don't you switch to linux? see... same thing.
ElectricThunder
Member
This is going to only become more of an important consideration in the next few years to come, as history is moving about and it won't just be Linux cropping up as a hopeful alternative OS environ in terms of games and such. Syllable is gaining ground, Haiku is slowly shaping up, AROS/Icaros stepping it along, AmigaOS oddly sauntering forward---entirely possible for other even more esoteric ones to find themselves in a prominent spot should they manage the odd spike or so in their respective dev goals versus the unfortunately standard trickle.
This is comparable to how it used to be once before, when Amiga was still a thing, BeOS was nipping at heels, and games could and did wind up on a variety of systems. Then Direct X and other untimely self-destructive things happened with only Linux remaining on the heap, Windows far and away ahead, and Mac just kinda doing otherwise----it was inevitable things would not remain this lopsidedly predictable.
Game developers can succeed in places where conventional wisdom says they should not, in ways they "should not", and so forth----part dumb luck/timing, but another key component has to be a clearer connection and communication to the audience they are seeking, Kickstarter being one of these best ways yet since the Shareware days of doing so alongside Alpha/Beta pre-orders. Doing perhaps OK in a general, broad sense versus doing perhaps quite well in a given niche, and the balance to strike amidst the lot of it, is something all outfits have to contend with multiple times should they stick with it over the years.
This is comparable to how it used to be once before, when Amiga was still a thing, BeOS was nipping at heels, and games could and did wind up on a variety of systems. Then Direct X and other untimely self-destructive things happened with only Linux remaining on the heap, Windows far and away ahead, and Mac just kinda doing otherwise----it was inevitable things would not remain this lopsidedly predictable.
Game developers can succeed in places where conventional wisdom says they should not, in ways they "should not", and so forth----part dumb luck/timing, but another key component has to be a clearer connection and communication to the audience they are seeking, Kickstarter being one of these best ways yet since the Shareware days of doing so alongside Alpha/Beta pre-orders. Doing perhaps OK in a general, broad sense versus doing perhaps quite well in a given niche, and the balance to strike amidst the lot of it, is something all outfits have to contend with multiple times should they stick with it over the years.
TomcaT-SdB
One of the Founding Fathers of Saga
On the side topic of VMs, Windows 7 with proper guest drivers runs much better than XP in a VM (Linux seems to do better even still as a guest). If all you've run is XP as a windows guest, it can be a dramatic difference when moving to 7 (no benchmarks to back this, just my own experiences). Also, I don't run Linux in a VM since modern desktops (GNOME 3) tend to be sensitive to drivers.
Note: The windows performance difference is with KVM w/ virtio & SPICE.
On topic: Looks like they made the stretch goal, so thumbs up for them
I might pick this one up when it releases...
Note: The windows performance difference is with KVM w/ virtio & SPICE.
On topic: Looks like they made the stretch goal, so thumbs up for them
I might pick this one up when it releases...
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Okay then, that clears the air a bit.