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[MarkV]

I really like reading tech talks by you guys, looking forward to see a thread just for things like this.

I don't get why the doubts about sparks lighting, IIRC when you shot with some kind of rifle onto some material that produce sparks they emit light, in similar manner of Battlefield 4. Am i missing the point?
Unreal Engine 4 seems to do this in a more advanced way, though.

 

[KKRT00]

I really like reading tech talks by you guys, looking forward to see a thread just for things like this.

I don't get why the doubts about sparks lighting, IIRC when you shot with some kind of rifle onto some material that produce sparks they emit light, in similar manner of Battlefield 4. Am i missing the point?
Unreal Engine 4 seems to do this in a more advanced way, though.

He meant that every spark is light source, in C3 sparks are treated as bunch, so You have light source, but only one, not for every spark.
Like here:

Volt gun though works in a little different way:

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Responses:


Please load up the game and find all the evidence of the "majority" of surfaces that do not use POM.

I just gave an entire video of the surfaces having no POM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkkscYLysZA

Can you address this video please?

Every surface in Crysis 3 uses SSR. The surface, quite logically, has to have a certain level of specular and gloss for it to show.
So all metals, shiny plastisc, water, almost everything in the game uses SSR. You can find it all the time... every where.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kopGn8Jiyic

Where is SSR on the crate on the left side of the character. That's a metal. I don't see him in it at all. I don't even see a blur of him moving in it or even the reflection of the concrete in it (I'll take more vids tonight to further prove that I don't see actual reflections on objects).

I'm looking for real local reflections (not the cubemap static ones that are in most games).

Here is a shot in Crysis 3 that shows what I'm looking for in metals,etc.. and not just mirrored surfaces.

I think this has been explained before... but the reason why there are few area lights and even fewer moving Area lights in the game is due to thetime in development when they added that tech in.

I didn't say that the engine can't do area lights. I said I didn't see hardly any in the game. It was one of the highlights in the tech demo and even that example didn't appear in the game.

Please please please start posting screenshots when you make statements about what or what not a game does. It can be very frustrating.

I'll do even better and show videos if you'll have the time to critique them. The videos are much more representative than a screenshot.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

He meant that every spark is light source, in C3 sparks are treated as bunch, so You have light source, but only one, not for every spark.

Thank you! And yet, the tech demo showed each individual spark being a light source. I even went to that level in the game and sure enough, those sparks were not like the tech demo.

 

[nib95]

Shadow Fall actually reminds me a lot of Crysis in those shots lol.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Now you have to show us that every single asset in Metro is a high detailed mesh with high resolution textures and that every light casts shadows. Although Dictator already demonstrated the latter statement false.

Well, I can at least show that within the first 5 minutes of playing, they are showcasing a lot of what they advertise..

 

[KKRT00]

1. PoM works the best on flat surfaces, so ground textures or straight walls and this where it is in C3.
2. This is matte metal, with high roughness, its not a mirror. Get to a metal wall and start shooting near it, You'll see spark reflections on them.

---

Thank you! And yet, the tech demo showed each individual spark being a light source. I even went to that level in the game and sure enough, those sparks were not like the tech demo.

They show unlimited particles lighting in that footage and they have unlimited particles lighting in the game, so i dont know what You're arguing about. Just because they used different sparks in demo than in game, doesnt mean it diminish anything from the tech demo.
Also arguing that You dont have PADM on every tree, when they stated [few months before game shipped in fact], they've developed it in the last stage of game development is silly.
Area Light is showed in such a way, because its easier to show off all its feature this way. Its simple as that.

Will You argue that lighting in 3rd generation of GI is different in real level of C3 too?

 

[MarkV]

He meant that every spark is light source, in C3 sparks are treated as bunch, so You have light source, but only one, not for every spark.
Like here:


Volt gun though works in a little different way:

Ok i got it, now.
Yes it's only a trick to get some kind of sparks lighting, other game do this as well.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

1. PoM works the best on flat surfaces, so ground textures or straight walls and this where it is in C3.

Yep, as it will break down with curved surfaces.

2. This is matte metal, with high roughness, its not a mirror. Get to a metal wall and start shooting near it, You'll see spark reflections on them.

I matte reflective object will have blurred reflections.. totally viable as KZ:SF has demonstrated. I should see more than just a point light on the wall. I should see even a blurred reflection of the character himself.

They show unlimited particles lighting in that footage and they have unlimited particles lighting in the game, so i dont know what You're arguing about.

I'm arguing that I don't see the individual particles as light sources in the game. I have yet for anyone to show me a video similar to that tech demo that's in-game.

Also arguing that You dont have PADM on every tree, when they stated [few months before game shipped in fact], they've developed it in the last stage of game development is silly.

It's not silly. It's stating that's it's not in the game much at all. How can you showcase a game as having advanced tech when the game doesn't utilitize that advanced tech to the fullest? It sort of defeats the purpose if I romp through 10hrs of gameplay and don't get to see all the eye-candy that the developers talk about until the last level. Wouldn't you feel a little cheated?

Tomb Raider boasted realistic hair, hair shading, and displacement mapping. Immediately starting a new game, you could see the results and it never let up throughout the entire game.

Will You argue that lighting in 3rd generation of GI is different in real level of C3 too?

I don't understand this. Can you elaborate?

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

Well, I can at least show that within the first 5 minutes of playing, they are showcasing a lot of what they advertise..

Not only the first five minutes. They have to be active throughout the whole game. That's the standard you set for Crysis, that's the standard Metro will have to live up to.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Not only the first five minutes. They have to be active throughout the whole game. That's the standard you set for Crysis, that's the standard Metro will have to live up to.

Agreed. And it is throughout the whole game!

I have to "search" for advanced features in Crysis 3. You have to search for non-advanced features in Metro.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

I matte reflective object will have blurred reflections.. totally viable as KZ:SF has demonstrated. I should see more than just a point light on the wall. I should see even a blurred reflection of the character himself.

Show me a screenshot or video of KZSF where the player (in first person view) is being reflected.

It's not silly. It's stating that's it's not in the game much at all. How can you showcase a game as having advanced tech when the game doesn't utilitize that advanced tech to the fullest? It sort of defeats the purpose if I romp through 10hrs of gameplay and don't get to see all the eye-candy that the developers talk about until the last level. Wouldn't you feel a little cheated?

Tomb Raider boasted realistic hair, hair shading, and displacement mapping. Immediately starting a new game, you could see the results and it never let up throughout the entire game.

I don't understand this. Can you elaborate?

It's a game, not a tech demo. The effects are used according to the needs of the design.

 

[Dictator93]

I matte reflective object will have blurred reflections.. totally viable as KZ:SF has demonstrated. I should see more than just a point light on the wall. I should see even a blurred reflection of the character himself.

Where is SSR on the crate on the left side of the character. That's a metal. I don't see him in it at all. I don't even see a blur of him moving in it or even the reflection of the concrete in it (I'll take more vids tonight to further prove that I don't see actual reflections on objects).

This is impossible to do with screen space reflections. SSR can only apply in screen space. You cannot mirror the main character model in first person in anything.

In regards to your video and POM: a lot of the surfaces without POM you show are non-planar surfaces. Those surfaces are not at all good for POM. They cause waay too many errors.
Concerning small objects with low poly counts: Spending the 16ms budget on extraneous tesselation and displacement for small objects is not wort it when people run past them quickly or have to search to find them.

 

[KKRT00]

stuff

1. Thats why they've developed PADM.
2. No, it wouldnt be visible in KZ:SF in similar scene.
I've even GIF'ed SSR some time ago:

3. And in what game do You see individual sparks being light sources? Its cost inefficient and they dont do it, because its redundant. Most sparks have life time less than 1.5 second, putting light source on them when most of the time they wont lit anything in proximity, is waste of resources.
They've put light sources on sparks in tech demo, to showcase particles lighting interactions better.

4.Why in Tomb Raider only Lara has TressFX applied? Isnt that same situation like PADM technology in Crysis 3?

 

[eddfromtheriver]

Is the thread title wrong?, did i click on a Crysis 3 thread by mistake?

 

[VFX_Veteran]

This is impossible to do with screen space reflections. SSR can only apply in screen space. You cannot mirror the main character model in first person in anything.

Duely noted.. but what about other characters shown in reflections as in the KZ:SF gameplay demos? I don't see even that in C3.

In regards to your video and POM: a lot of the surfaces without POM you show are non-planar surfaces. Those surfaces are not at all good for POM. They cause waay too many errors.

Ok. So why not displace them so that the curves are not angular? They had plenty of GPU to do it with the PC and chose not to. Again pointing to the impression that they made the game with current gen in mind as opposed to designing around the PC.

Concerning small objects with low poly counts: Spending the 16ms budget on extraneous tesselation and displacement for small objects is not wort it when people run past them quickly or have to search to find them.

That may be for CryTek, but not for other companies. I challenge you to find a lot of low poly surfaces in Tomb Raider.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc1XWwiRBAU

Look at the trees.. all of them displaced so that their curvature is maintained. Look at the insignificant rocks or the wheel on the truck.. all of them curved.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

1
3. And in what game do You see individual sparks being light sources? Its cost inefficient and they dont do it, because its redundant. Most sparks have life time less than 1.5 second, putting light source on them when most of the time they wont lit anything in proximity, is waste of resources.
They've put light sources on sparks in tech demo, to showcase particles lighting interactions better.

That may be but we are all discussing next-gen quality here. CryEngine 3 is next-gen engine. But it hasn't been utilized to it's full capacity yet. Why is it so hard to admit that?

4.Why in Tomb Raider only Lara has TressFX applied? Isnt that same situation like PADM technology in Crysis 3?

That tech was made for hair.. and guess what? You see it every time you load up the game and start playing. It's not something you need to search for.. its' there in view 100% of the time.

 

[Spazznid]

That tech was made for hair.. and guess what? You see it every time you load up the game and start playing. It's not something you need to search for.. its' there in view 100% of the time.

I think he was talking about the fact that no other characters had TressFX. Seems last-minute. Hopefully in the next one, everyone will get the treatment.

 

[perineumlick]

Is the thread title wrong?, did i click on a Crysis 3 thread by mistake?

Yeah really. It's gonna get locked if they keep this derail going.

 

[KKRT00]

That may be but we are all discussing next-gen quality here. CryEngine 3 is next-gen engine. But it hasn't been utilized to it's full capacity yet. Why is it so hard to admit that?

It will never be, because engine is in development all the time. Like few days ago they've put Volumetric Lights into CE SDK tech documentation, but i havent seen them being used in Ryse.

Sure, i would like to have option to crank up even unnecessary things up. Like for example amount of rays in SSR for better quality, but they dont give us this option even in SDK, even though internally they have it [by Ruby tech presentation].

----

That may be for CryTek, but not for other companies. I challenge you to find a lot of low poly surfaces in Tomb Raider.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc1XWwiRBAU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc1XWwiRBAU&feature=player_detailpage#t=31

Rock is razor edge sharp. There is tons of low poly stuff in Tomb Raider, i can pick tons of things on many screenshots from screenshot thread.

---

Duely noted.. but what about other characters shown in reflections as in the KZ:SF gameplay demos? I don't see even that in C3.

Please stop, its not true. And i'm not going to bother with making an example.

My gif should be enough proof of SSR. There is reflection on every surface on this gif.
You can even launch Crysis 2 DX11 for reflections like KZ:SF, You Crytek's game from 2 years ago.

 

[Theecliff]

What the hell is going on in this thread?

 

[Dictator93]

Duely noted.. but what about other characters shown in reflections as in the KZ:SF gameplay demos? I don't see even that in C3.

SSR works on all objects in the scene, you cannot tag objects out of it since it is screen space (unless you insert it in a pass before or after some other pass). Characters show up in the reflections too. As shown below:

Ok. So why not displace them so that the curves are not angular? They had plenty of GPU to do it with the PC and chose not to. Again pointing to the impression that they made the game with current gen in mind as opposed to designing around the PC.

Because even PC games need scaling for minimum and maximum specs? Not all forms of tesselation are good for all objects (read up on PN triangle problems.. etc..) We do not have the power to tesselate everything in the environment to infinte degrees. It would choke GPUs. etc... You cannot just throw tesselation at everything, it causes art and performance problems in the dev pipeline.

Look at the trees.. all of them displaced so that their curvature is maintained. Look at the insignificant rocks or the wheel on the truck.. all of them curved.

The same way with any game you will find surfaces which are just normal/bumped/low res etc... every game is suseptible to having areas where they spent more time/ less time with the object detail. In a game like Tombraider and its limited movement areas... it is not horribly surprising that they had the budget/time/GPU time to tesselate more of the immediate environment. Still... you will of course find low polygonal and low res surfaces.. it is the nature of games with limited power.

What the hell is going on in this thread?

WELCOME TO HELL.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

You can even launch Crysis 2 DX11 for reflections like KZ:SF, You Crytek's game from 2 years ago.

Yeap. That I know about and wasn't talking about Crysis 2. I was speaking about Crysis 3. And I still say it's not used as liberally as KZ:SF.

 

[Face it Tiger..]

Did I just jump into a PC vs Console war in here?

Oh god, Crysis will win guys.. PC will always win.

 

[KKRT00]

Yeap. That I know about and wasn't talking about Crysis 2. I was speaking about Crysis 3. And I still say it's not used as liberally as KZ:SF.

Its surface characteristic dependent. They have higher roughness than in C2 on many materials, but algorithms is the same or better.
Here You have SSR on npc suit
http://i.minus.com/ibluENrOs7NcXA.gif

 

[Angelus Errare]

Can you mofos just make a separate thread already? Fuckin a.

 

[MMaRsu]

Is this the killzone thread ohmygod what happen im not good with phone