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Killzone: Shadow Fall technical presentation slides [Up: Tech Videos]

thuway

Member
Some of these effects are great and all, but I feel like Guerilla needs to capture the humanity of the characters. Make them look like real people and work on that aspect of it.
 
Some of these effects are great and all, but I feel like Guerilla needs to capture the humanity of the characters. Make them look like real people and work on that aspect of it.

Yeah they could up the detail in the characters. In fact looking through the Metal Gear V trailer, those character models look more natural than anything shown in Shadow Fall or Battlefield 4. They could definitely improve facial texturing and detail here. Hope they do.
 

Luthos

Member
You can see the differences a lot better in the mesh. Way more detail in SF and those cloth pieces are probably going to move this time around.

My number 1 anticipated "graphics" enhancement next gen: more moving cloths, and done more fluidly . I want capes, cloaks, coats, etc.
 

lefantome

Member
Another interesting thing that I noticed from the slides - their CPU profiler has six bars. Could that mean that 6 cores are available for development with two being locked out for OS or whatever else?

Also, it just downed on me how it's kind of crazy that the game is already using so much memory. Just for sound it's using more than total amount of PS3s memory, and 4.5GB is probably more than any PC game I've seen. I think BF3 on Ultra is something like 3GB when you add up main+vram.

I think one core is used to coordinate the other cores, they said that in the presentation, the other one maybe is os core.
 

KKRT00

Member
========



What 15 FPS ? You would see "choppy flow" if that would be the case.

Also this is 2008 compute wasn't really hot back then and smoke calculations should be way better using compute.

I couldnt find any good test video, but here is the best i could
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HOtv7J8ogQ

It still tanks fps and still looks choppy, also animation freeze every 10 seconds and seems like it resets. From the SDK on board, it seems that it crashes game with AI or 3rd view. Also it was used only in level in whole game. I dont have Stalker:CS so cant really test fps myself.
http://www.gsc-game.com/index.php?t...&thm_page=1&thm_id=5453&sec_id=18&offset=-120

===
Crysis 3 used 9 raymarched samples for screen space reflections, KZ4 does something well beyond that.

No, it does not. Its nothing beyond, its just a little modified technique.
 

pottuvoi

Banned
Here's couple of better quality images of the reflections.
off
on










 

Perkel

Banned
I couldnt find any good test video, but here is the best i could
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HOtv7J8ogQ

It still tanks fps and still looks choppy, also animation freeze every 10 seconds and seems like it resets. From the SDK on board, it seems that it crashes game with AI or 3rd view. Also it was used only in level in whole game. I dont have Stalker:CS so cant really test fps myself.
http://www.gsc-game.com/index.php?t...&thm_page=1&thm_id=5453&sec_id=18&offset=-120

===


No, it does not. Its nothing beyond, its just a little modified technique.

That is not choppy at all. More like source of this smoke is shooting smoke with move that reset every ten seconds. This smoke is definitely real time volumetric and it takes into account objects moving or not. As of SDK and third person view i don't know i played it only vanilla so only FPP but i don't see what it has to do with anything. This effect works it looks good and it is cheap (for amount which was generated). Far more demanding were volumetric lights in that game
 

pottuvoi

Banned
No, it does not. Its nothing beyond, its just a little modified technique.
If by slightly modified you mean adding support for BRDF and rough reflections with pre-convolution, hierarchial buffers for speed and a temporal reprojection for secondary bounces, sure.
 

Waaghals

Member
Destiny looks like crap in gameplay though so far.
To be fair though it is a 2014 title and we haven`t seen much combat gameplay yet...

Destiny is a current gen title that is also coming to PS4.
The primary platform is X360/PS3, and it shows. Still a good looking game, but as you say we really haven't seen how it plays.
 

bak4fun

Unconfirmed Member
there is a breakdown of their reflection render pass in the lighting presentation

Initial image containing Lightmap Based Diffuse, Dynamic Diffuse & Specular

Ambient BRDF factor used to blend in Image Based Reflections

Cubemap pass, combining reflection from localized cubemaps and skybox cubemap.

Lightmap Based Diffuse, Dynamic Diffuse & Specular + Cubemap based reflections

Result of Realtime Glossy Reflection Raytrace pass. Notice glossyness of relfection changing with surface material and raytrace distance.

Real Time Glossy Reflection glossyness / coverage mask used to blend between local cubemap reflections and realtime.

Final composite with all Image Based Lighting passes.
 
The only things I am hopping they tighten up in those images are:

1. Vegetation: Cherry blossoms looked great, but the palms, especially the lighting/shadowing contrast is jarring.

2. A nice improvement in AA: Seems like they are aiming for this, good.

3. Increase character model detail and shadowing.

If they can do all those, I will be more than content.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Now we have a game that will be out at the end of this year and run and look worse than Crysis 3.
They've already outlined several major improvements they want to make visuallt and the game is a long way out. Saying it looks and runs worse than Crysis 3 is premature, especially considering that this is the equivalent of a low-mid range CPU and slightly more GPU power than a 7850.
 

velociraptor

Junior Member
you forgot blue screen, drivers conflict, wasd lolmao and I can go on. You pay (maybe) 400£ but games and accessories cost more :)



you can see partial ray tracing even on Crysis 2, date 2011. Nothing new here.

Now we have a game that will be out at the end of this year and run and look worse than Crysis 3.
It does not look worse than Crysis 3.
 

Tripolygon

Member
Eurogamer: Inside Killzone: Shadow Fall
The talk begins with a few basic facts - namely that Killzone: Shadow Fall is indeed a PlayStation 4 launch title, and that target - for the announcement demo, at least - is a "solid" 30 frames per second at native 1080p resolution. The studio also reveals that this is just one of two internal projects it is working on, the other described as an "unannounced new IP".

What follows is a complete breakdown of almost every technical facet of the demo, but what stood out to us was the lavish use of the GDDR5 memory in the PlayStation 4
 
Very interesting article with what seems to be a break down of the slides.

I found this to be interesting:
There is mention that there's no MSAA "yet" but Guerrilla specifically mentions it is working with Sony's Advanced Technology Group (ATG) on a new form of anti-aliasing, tantalisingly dubbed "TMAA".

Can't wait to see if they'll pull it off and what the results will be!! Exciting times ahead...
 

KKRT00

Member
If by slightly modified you mean adding support for BRDF and rough reflections with pre-convolution, hierarchial buffers for speed and a temporal reprojection for secondary bounces, sure.

You know that only temporal reprojection stuff is different to CE 3 technique? And we dont really know what it adds, i think its that 'shadow reflection' visible in few places on examples, but i'm not sure, in C3 You have SSDO for that.
 
Some of these effects are great and all, but I feel like Guerilla needs to capture the humanity of the characters. Make them look like real people and work on that aspect of it.

no i don't think so, killzone shadow fall has a very cartoony style. realistic characters wouldnt fit
 
I`m sorry but that Deep Down tech demo is pure bullshit.

Sure, it might be realtime but it`s a carefully made cutscene in that case in where the flame isn`t actually the work of realtime physics. I haven`t seen Crysis, Guerrilla Games, Dice or any of the top dogs create flames or dynamic fluids that realistic.
Right, if those guys don't do it then it's impossible right? LOL When it comes to particle effects Capcom has been at the forefront for quite a while.

And then you compare those guys work with the laughable work from Capcoms best with Resident Evil 6 etc.

I believe it`s possible with PS4 specs but I`m expecting a considerable downgrade with the actual Deep Down.
MT Framework sucks. Good joke.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
This demo runs on GTX 560 in 30fps in 720p win 100% GPU utilization, so on around 1.3TFflops GPU. For 60fps You need at least 2.6Tflops and probably more than 3TFlops for 1080p + some other physics, bluring, shadowing occluding etc. just for smoke.
So i were close with 4TFlops guess. It wont happen this gen.
Thanks for those profiler shots. That's pretty impressive triangle counts, holy crap. Still, you can tell that KZ here would be able to render at least twice as much as that one screen displayed, all with far more effects and far more complex lighting and shading.

I don't think you are anywhere close with that guess to be honest. Not sure where you got that the demo I linked to runs like that on 560, but the youtube video comment say that it was captured on 8800 GTS (it's from 2009 after all) and it wasn't even using CUDA or anything, it was just 'plain' DX9 code, so it probably could be optimized far more nowadays. Another important thing to remember here is that something like this doesn't have to run at anything close to full resolution, as it's just smoke. Even quarter resolution would probably be enough. It really looks like that this effect can be accomplished with much less, and I fully expect to see it in more enclosed environments at least, like in those Stalker videos.
 
553 Mb for sounds (more than all the memory available on PS3)
350 Mb for Havok.

And only 4.5 Gb of RAM?

When they'll really optimize the resources and use all the available memory, the results will be amazing.
 

KKRT00

Member
Thanks for those profiler shots. That's pretty impressive triangle counts, holy crap. Still, you can tell that KZ here would be able to render at least twice as much as that one screen displayed, all with far more effects and far more complex lighting and shading.

I don't think you are anywhere close with that guess to be honest. Not sure where you got that the demo I linked to runs like that on 560, but the youtube video comment say that it was captured on 8800 GTS (it's from 2009 after all) and it wasn't even using CUDA or anything, it was just 'plain' DX9 code, so it probably could be optimized far more nowadays. Another important thing to remember here is that something like this doesn't have to run at anything close to full resolution, as it's just smoke. Even quarter resolution would probably be enough. It really looks like that this effect can be accomplished with much less, and I fully expect to see it in more enclosed environments at least, like in those Stalker videos.
Yep, but even 1m or 1.5m polys would be quite low when this gen was pushing 1m even 1.2m in some games and PC games can push around 3m in 60fps for a few years now.
About smoke demo, particles there dont look like full res (they're small so hard to tell really) and You can download it by Yourself here:
http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=/parties/2009/main09/demo/flt_blunderbuss.zip&fileinfo
 

Gestault

Member
You can best see it here, every explosion is the same. I wonder if there somethign stopping them to mix 3-4 different "renders" of the explosion. Or to create few of them that are not "linear" [can achieve vastly different look by simply rotating explosion smoke].


However, it still looks "nextgen as fuck" as someone wrote here. :D

Next-gen as fuck confirmed.
 

Gestault

Member
Actually, no. On the ps3, only cutscenes that were pre-rendered were the obvious ones (that look like a CG movie). All cutscenes that look like the in-engine graphics were rendered in real-time.

The 360 version on the other indeed did have prerendered videos for a lot of the cutscenes that looked like they were in-engine.

the tech tear-downs I saw showed that the number of pre-rendered vs real-time cutscenes were the same in both, it was just the compression process on 360 made them obvious. It's the same way the majority of cutscenes in Uncharted 2 are actually pre-rendered, but the assets are so close and the compression so minimal that you wouldn't notice unless you actually went into the data. Or just saw that when you go into cutscene-viewer, there's zero load time for them to start up (except for the real-time ones).
 

Gestault

Member
Yeah, that'd be cool. Unforunately, after playthrough special cheats/modes are a thing of the past really now. Barely any games had them this gen.

At least uncharted had unlockable stuff when you beat it. Horizontal-mirrored playthroughs were actually kind of awesome.
 

Kaako

Felium Defensor
But the whole city is a skybox remember. No geometry....

Also, 3gb of video ram used. They have a lot more to get through. As they rightly claim, they've likely only scratched the surface.
LOL I wanna know who said this.
 

CorrisD

badchoiceboobies
Yeah but even naughty dog gave in to the current gen standards. Uncharted 3 had none of them whatsoever.

IIRC they actually said that the extras/cheats/etc. all got turned off because they were problematic, not because they didn't want to give them to us like so many other games do these days.
 

Gamespawn

Member
You'd think GG would know by now that everyone wants a Helghast campaign. At least give us a selection of characters like in the first game.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
You'd think GG would know by now that everyone wants a Helghast campaign. At least give us a selection of characters like in the first game.

Helghast campaign is a dumb idea. If the ISA were the ones you were shooting at the game would look far more generic. FPS thrive on having good enemies and the Helghast are iconic, you want to be looking at them as much as possible, which is going to happen most when they're in your sights.
 

pottuvoi

Banned
You know that only temporal reprojection stuff is different to CE 3 technique? And we dont really know what it adds, i think its that 'shadow reflection' visible in few places on examples, but i'm not sure, in C3 You have SSDO for that.
CE doesn't use pre-convolution nor hierarchial buffer.
Thus the CE3 reflections are always sharp and is enabled when there's enough specular on pixel.

KZ method is used on all surfaces, when surface is very rough the reflection is very blurry, mainly contributing an additional directional component to the surface.
And we dont really know what it adds, i think its that 'shadow reflection' visible in few places on examples, but i'm not sure, in C3 You have SSDO for that.
Paper states that it's for stability and speed, also makes additional bounce possible. (might be reserved for some rare cases or scenes.)
We use temporal reprojection to improve the effect stability and speed,
 
Yep, but even 1m or 1.5m polys would be quite low when this gen was pushing 1m even 1.2m in some games and PC games can push around 3m in 60fps for a few years now.
About smoke demo, particles there dont look like full res (they're small so hard to tell really) and You can download it by Yourself here:
http://www.scene.org/file.php?file=/parties/2009/main09/demo/flt_blunderbuss.zip&fileinfo

Did they say in the presentation how many triangles they were pushing for the Shadow Fall demo? I know it was listed to have 40k for characters.
 

squidyj

Member
Helghast campaign is a dumb idea. If the ISA were the ones you were shooting at the game would look far more generic. FPS thrive on having good enemies and the Helghast are iconic, you want to be looking at them as much as possible, which is going to happen most when they're in your sights.

Helghast vs earth.
 
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