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[Gestault]

Why don't you show the hand
the problem here is only that they make miracle with normal maps and mapping but the actual poly difference is insane..

I wasn't saying "there isn't more visual data," I was saying, to the person who said the differences were night-and-day, that they were overstating the disparity. I had skipped on the hand because the positions were so different, but it doesn't exactly undercut what I was saying. Those extra polygons are going to be fantastic, though.

 

[RoboPlato]

Interesting, another four-letter initialism I hadn't heard of before. Sounds like a technique that uses 2D cut-outs to separate various parts of the scene, allowing you to use MSAA on some elements and post-processing AA on others.





It's not full multisampling, but it sounds like a step up VSAA. (Vaseline smear anti-aliasing)

Sounds like a good solution.

 

[KKRT00]

Interesting stuff:

- Global Illumination prebaked and no mention of making it dynamic.

- They are working with Sony ATG on new AA method - TMAA:
"We're currently using FXAA for anti-aliasing, but we're working together with Sony ATG on a better solution more suitable for PS4. Watch out for TMAA"

- City landscape is so low poly that is actually doable on current gen consoles, as i said quite a few times in past
The polycount is 500k for whole visible geometry, with lighting [so shadows] its 670k, only 100k more than God of War: Ascention for example.

- only 1700 draw calls for GPU in city landscape scene

- Bokeh DoF has currently almost same quality as in Crysis 2 on consoles. In C2 it was half-res of 720p and in KZ:SF its 1/4 of 1080p

 

[Raist]

I also think you're overstating it.

The eyes lighting up the inside of the hood is the most impressive thing.

I'm of the opinion that we'll have to see the cloth move in real time to see the stark difference in the models.
(Which they could still back-port.)

As has been said, the old model gets a nice boost by being in their overhauled engine using the new lighting system and looks absolutely fine.

Edit: The hand is also a biggie. And just to clarify: I think the KZ:SF looks like a generational leap over Killone 2/3 if everything is added up together. This specific comparison however is not representative of that though.

OK, here's what I see:

- huge polycount difference
- texture quality improved a lot - also, diversity (the latter is quite obvious)
- shadowing is much smoother and more natural
- lighting (as you mentioned, head bits)

But as I said before, many people won't perceive that much of a difference and that's fine. I for one am not very sensitive between 30 and 60fps in most cases. But such a difference would make other people go insane.

 

[mysteriousmage09]

In one of the slides, it states "no MSAA at the moment" indicating they want it in.

 

[shinobi602]

Seems we'll still get the jaggy/clipping smoke effects instead of smoke with real volume: http://youtu.be/tgZZ9ODW0rw?t=3m18s

 

[orioto]

I wasn't saying "there isn't more visual data," I was saying, to the person who said the differences were night-and-day, that they were overstating the disparity. I had skipped on the hand because the positions were so different, but it doesn't exactly undercut what I was saying. Those extra polygons are going to be fantastic, though.

Haha, and you choosed the wrong one! The other hand is the only part of the PS3 model that shows low poly.

but i get what you say ok.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

yea the animation was immersion breaking. But the animation in Killzone 2 and 3 is much better than what they showed so it should be ok, unless they are rushing for launch.

Yep this being a launch game could cause some problems over all .
For KZ2 they had a good 3 plus years with the system .

 

[colt45joe]

Not sure what they're comparing here to be honest. They both look...the same?

the difference would be noticeable if the killzone 3 model was shown at its native ps3-level ingame quality resolution.

 

[SniperHunter]

I'll take anything, as long as it doesn't produce blur like in Crysis 2.

I really liked the blur in Crysis 2, it made the game look like CG. Very clean image quality!

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Why does this sound good?

Jobification of code, ballpark improvements:
‣ (PS3 ‣ PS4 - % of code running in jobs)
‣ 80% ‣ 90% - Rendering code
‣ 10% ‣ 80% - Game Logic
‣ 20% ‣ 80% - AI Code

 

[RoboPlato]

We need a gif of the volumetrics at the end of the video. Absolutely gorgeous. Hope there's a scene like that in the game.

 

[JCreasy]

the difference would be noticeable if the killzone 3 model was shown at its native ps3-level ingame resolution.

Thought so! I was just thinking, the PS3 version looked upgraded! Never looked that good in-game.

Reposting this for the new page. Is this our first confirmation that Guerilla WASN'T aware of the 8 gb announcement?

The footage shown during February’s huge PlayStation Meeting press conference supposedly used around 3GB of the console’s GDDR5 RAM for video, with a further 1.5GB employed for system purposes. Remember, the box has a total of 8GB GDDR5 RAM available.

used around 3GB of the console’s GDDR5 RAM

used around 3GB


3GB

. . . Characters are currently being built using 40,000 polygons, a figure four times greater than the models from Killzone 3.

http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2013/05/who_fancies_some_killzone_shadow_fall_technical_stats

 

[Nirolak]

Why does this sound good?

Jobification of code, ballpark improvements:
‣ (PS3 ‣ PS4 - % of code running in jobs)
‣ 80% ‣ 90% - Rendering code
‣ 10% ‣ 80% - Game Logic
‣ 20% ‣ 80% - AI Code

Putting it into jobs means it's much easier to handle it across multiple processors, which is what you want to do on an eight core system.

 

[KKRT00]

Seems we'll still get the jaggy/clipping smoke effects instead of smoke with real volume: http://youtu.be/tgZZ9ODW0rw?t=3m18s

Dont count on fully volumetric smoke in this generation, its too expensive.

--

Why does this sound good?

Jobification of code, ballpark improvements:
‣ (PS3 ‣ PS4 - % of code running in jobs)
‣ 80% ‣ 90% - Rendering code
‣ 10% ‣ 80% - Game Logic
‣ 20% ‣ 80% - AI Code

This means that Game Logic and AI code was in 80+% calculated by one thread of PPU in KZ 3.

 

[Orayn]

Sounds like a good solution.

Kind of. The MSAA portion of it will probably be reserved for big background objects, but it'll produce nicer results than post-processing or replacing them with icky sprites.

In one of the slides, it states "no MSAA at the moment" indicating they want it in.

That's consistent with them wanting TMAA, which applies MSAA only to certain parts of the scene.

 

[SniperHunter]

Seems we'll still get the jaggy/clipping smoke effects instead of smoke with real volume: http://youtu.be/tgZZ9ODW0rw?t=3m18s

yup! volumetric smoke might be too cpu intensive, they said they are not using the GPU compute at the moment

Dont count on fully volumetric smoke in this generation, its too expensive.

pretty sure knack uses volumetric smoke

 

[DieH@rd]

Why does this sound good?

Jobification of code, ballpark improvements:
‣ (PS3 ‣ PS4 - % of code running in jobs)
‣ 80% ‣ 90% - Rendering code
‣ 10% ‣ 80% - Game Logic
‣ 20% ‣ 80% - AI Code

Now they have 8 threads for CPU code [minus OS thread], they can branch out more.

 

[CamHostage]

(*From the Tech Demo Presentation, last few seconds is this Volumetric Effect demo of light and particles. Sorry it's low-res GIF, click the link for the full effect.)

 

[benny_a]

Haha, and you choosed the wrong one! The other hand is the only part of the PS3 model that shows low poly.

Just so the conversation is resolved:

 

[Arnie]

We need a gif of the volumetrics at the end of the video. Absolutely gorgeous. Hope there's a scene like that in the game.

Aye, it was lovely.

Incidentally that's where I most noticed the slightly wonky animation, because the smoke effects were so realistic it stood out as artificial.

 

[KKRT00]

pretty sure knack uses volumetric smoke

No, it does not. Actually it havent even got wind physics on the trailer.

 

[RoboPlato]

(*From the Tech Demo Presentation, last few seconds is this Volumetric Effect demo of light and particles. Sorry it's low-res GIF, click the link for the full effect.)

Next gen as fuck

 

[SniperHunter]

Next gen as fuck

smoke grenade + flashlights = :O

No, it does not. Actually it havent even got wind physics on the trailer.

could volumetric smoke be done on the gpu compute?

 

[Gestault]

Reposting this for the new page. Is this our first confirmation that Guerilla WASN'T aware of the 8 gb announcement?

I'm not so sure about that. From this info we see the game itself is using roughly 4.5 gigabytes [3 for GPU-side and 1.5 for CPU-side], plus the OS footprint. That's definitely more than the 4 gigs that had been assumed prior to the presentation.

 

[sunnz]

No, it does not. Actually it doesnt even had wind physics on the trailer.

First thing I noticed when he does that power attack, if only the foliage moved, would have looked a lot better.


I have a strong feeling that KF:SF will be one of those games that will blow our mind at times when you are playing. Really can wait for it.

 

[DieH@rd]

pretty sure knack uses volumetric smoke

It looks like its prebaked, just like that huge explosion in the BF4 reveal trailer.

 

[RoboPlato]

smoke grenade + flashlights = :O

In the lighting presentation they talked about a scene with searchlights looking for the player. I hope that scene has smoke or fog.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

I'm not seeing that myself. The new one has more geometry, better lighting effects, better textures, and smoother rounds. It's an all around improvement.

Seeing them side by side and zoomed in, the PS4 version does look better. I'd probably be singing a different tune if it was a 1080p raw capture where we could really see the details.

From a distance though/at that res, I definitely prefer that texture on the PS3 model. It just looks artistically more striking and adds a level of detail to the entire image that is just missing on the more subtle PS4 version (not that it is actually missing, it's just not as noticeable). Plus other artistic decisions, like the more square looking hood give the PS4 model the impression of lower poly count even if it's not actually the case. Curves = great.

I'd bet that to the every day gamer, they wouldn't see a huge difference between the two. NPCs are something that people around the internet have been making fun of for a while now. The game looks excellent, but if you distill it down to its individual elements, you can see that it's still very much a game. We're not reaching diminishing returns; PS3 gen was just such a triumph in realism.

 

[SniperHunter]

It looks like its prebaked, just like that huge explosion in the BF4 reveal trailer.

yea you guys are right, it's baked

In the lighting presentation they talked about a scene with searchlights looking for the player. I hope that scene has smoke or fog.

sounds awesome I was talking about the multiplayer though, I love the smoke grenade in Countstrike GO

 

[Skyzard]

That matrix mode!

 

[antitrop]

oh and for those who don't like FXAA:

"We’re currently using FXAA for anti-aliasing, but we’re working together
with Sony ATG on a better solution more suitable for PS4. Watch out for TMAA."

Never heard of TMAA before, had to look it up. Stands for Transparency Multisampling Antialiasing. There is also TSAA for Transparency Supersampling Antialiasing.

The only high profile game I can see mention of its usage is for Fallout 3.

Has it anything to do with this aspect of MSAA?

Alpha testing
Alpha testing is a technique common to older video games used to render translucent objects by rejecting pixels from being written to the framebuffer. If the alpha value of a translucent fragment is not within a specified range, it will be discarded after alpha testing. Because this is performed on a pixel by pixel basis, the image does not receive the benefits of multi-sampling (all of the multisamples in a pixel are discarded based on the alpha test) for these pixels. The resulting image may contain aliasing along the edges of transparent objects or edges within textures, although the image quality will be no worse than it would be without any anti-aliasing. Translucent objects that are modelled using alpha-test textures will also be aliased due to alpha testing. This effect can be minimized by rendering objects with transparent textures multiple times, although this would result in a high performance reduction for scenes containing many transparent objects.

Everything I can find on Google about TMAA/TSAA makes it sound like an improved form of MSAA, but that's not the impression I get from GG if they're comparing it to FXAA, obviously.

 

[SneakyStephan]

It's not full multisampling, but it sounds like a step up VSAA. (Vaseline smear anti-aliasing)

Taking a shit in your hand then rubbing it all over the tv would be a step up from FXAA

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I want to add caption file so people can read WTF is happening but I have no clue and I am too lazy to do so. So sorry.

I tried adding one and it crashed on me. Simple annotations would do for now, I guess.

 

[Tripolygon]

I'm not so sure about that. From this info we see the game itself is using roughly 4.5 gigabytes [3 for GPU-side and 1.5 for CPU-side], plus the OS footprint. That's definitely more than the 4 gigs that had been assumed prior to the presentation.

non final dev kits have 8GB not GDDR5 RAM and 1.5GB GDDR5 RAM on GPU according to some VGLeaks report. The Final Kits with the PS4 APU chipset which they probably have now will have a unified 8GB GDDR5 RAM.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I'm liking this sharing of info or tech oriented documentation here. Really welcome it.

 

[Cidd]

Dev kits have 8GB not GDDR5 RAM

Split pool?

 

[valkillmore]

It looks like its prebaked, just like that huge explosion in the BF4 reveal trailer.
*pic*

Just out of curiosity, what does it matter if it's 'pre-baked' as you say? It's still part of the in-game graphics, so it's still impressive, no? Also, can you please explain what 'pre-baked' means, in this context? How is it worse than if it weren't pre-baked?

 

[RoboPlato]

I'm liking this sharing of info or tech oriented documentation here. Really welcome it.

GG does tons of these. This is actually the second on for Shadow Fall so far. The other one was an hour long lighting presentation.

 

[SniperHunter]

Just out of curiosity, what does it matter if it's 'pre-baked' as you say? It's still part of the in-game graphics, so it's still impressive, no? Also, can you please explain what 'pre-baked' means, in this context? How is it worse than if it weren't pre-baked?

it means the smoke isn't interactive, it just clips through objects. I think the only game that uses volumetric smoke/clouds is Rouge Squadron on GameCube.

This is very sad, I always wanted volumetric clouds in Ace Combat and other flying games

 

[spwolf]

I'd bet that to the every day gamer, they wouldn't see a huge difference between the two. NPCs are something that people around the internet have been making fun of for a while now. The game looks excellent, but if you distill it down to its individual elements, you can see that it's still very much a game. We're not reaching diminishing returns; PS3 gen was just such a triumph in realism.

every day gamer will see day and night difference between PS3 and PS4 games.

PS3 was definitely nothing like "triumph in realism"... maybe compared to PS2, but not compared to reality.

PS4 has a chance to become that.

And when comparing the two, I dont mean using one old model rendered in new engine, I mean actually turning on PS4 and playing PS4 game vs doing the same on PS3 and same PS3 game. Difference looks to be huge.

If you think differently, i suggest you read over the ppt, not use one point of reference.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Just out of curiosity, what does it matter if it's 'pre-baked' as you say? It's still part of the in-game graphics, so it's still impressive, no? Also, can you please explain what 'pre-baked' means, in this context? How is it worse than if it weren't pre-baked?

I think "pre-baked" means that it's not volumetric i.e. the explosion will be the same all the time, whereas otherwise it will be a unique explosion.

Basically pre-baked is predetermined explosion that takes little processing power.

 

[KKRT00]

could volumetric smoke be done on the gpu compute?

Sure it can, You just need 4TFlops just for that.

I think the only game that uses volumetric smoke/clouds is Rouge Squadron on GameCube.

Many games use volumetric clouds, but its the physics component that is expensive, not making it as geometry.

---

I dont think TMAA means what You guys paste, but using some MSAA resolve will be part of it. It will be probably close to SMAA.

 

[DieH@rd]

yea you guys are right, it's baked

You can best see it here, every explosion is the same. I wonder if there somethign stopping them to mix 3-4 different "renders" of the explosion. Or to create few of them that are not "linear" [can achieve vastly different look by simply rotating explosion smoke].

However, it still looks "nextgen as fuck" as someone wrote here.

 

[valkillmore]

it means the smoke isn't interactive, it just clips through objects. I think the only game that uses volumetric smoke/clouds is Rouge Squadron on GameCube.

This is very sad, I always wanted volumetric clouds in Ace Combat and other flying games

Are you telling me that, this being 2013, Rouge Squadron on GameCube is STILL the only game that actually uses volumetric smoke/clouds as a graphical effect?

 

[Tripolygon]

Split pool?

The early kits were suppose to have split pool of memory, the final kits with the PS4 APU will have a unified GDDR5 RAM.

 

[SniperHunter]

Sure it can, You just need 4TF just for that.

lol thanks for replying. How was this effect accomplished in a Gamecube game?

Are you telling me that, this being 2013, Rouge Squadron on GameCube is STILL the only game that actually uses volumetric smoke/clouds as a graphical effect?

yes, it wasn't used in Lair either

 

[iceatcs]

Just out of curiosity, what does it matter if it's 'pre-baked' as you say? It's still part of the in-game graphics, so it's still impressive, no? Also, can you please explain what 'pre-baked' means, in this context? How is it worse than if it weren't pre-baked?

I think it mean like script. Same time and effect if you replay.

 

[The Jason]

wow the Matrix mode in the video is pretty cool

 

[Spinluck]

Uploading your video. 4 minutes remaining. Your video will be live at: http://youtu.be/tgZZ9ODW0rw

I could not add one video as it kept on crashing. It's basically the trailer for Killzone: Shadow Falls that we have already seen.

Thanks shagg, really appreciate it.

That Matrix mode looked fucking cool.

Kinda Tron like.