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Kingkiller Chronicles: Denna....why... *spoilers*
- Thread starter BeatResetsTheWorld
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Maybe we fuck dragons next? How about a ghost? A Dragon ghost. While playing a guitar solo.
One man band while having sex with shapshifting dragon ghosts.
EDIT: I think a lot of the Denna hatred comes from guys who have been heartbroken by similar women in the past and I can get that. Because it's the same with me. I think about the ones that got away and I think about Denna and it cuts me. Her chapters cut me. I was both excited and steely dreading every chapter that they would meet up in.
It's not going to end well, but you can't blame JUST HER.
I truly would love to see them end up together just to buck a trend, but I know from reading Pat's blogs and from knowing his prose that he's not going to give us what we want at all but what needs to happen to his story and his character. It's kind of the new cut of fantasy - I don't think I've ever read an adult fantasy novel in the last few years that actually ends great. It's always the most bitter of sweets. And this will be no exception.
I think thats projecting too much
Don't really understand all of the Denna hate. She's certainly one of the more developed female characters that I've read. Are you guys mad that she has to go out with a lot of different men or something? The era of the books is one in which women have basically no rights and entirely dependent on marrying into a family, and, worse, Denna has no family of her own. So, it's either prostitution, being a mistress to a noble, or the very unlikely attempt to become a well-known musician. She makes it clear that she loathes the idea of being beholden to some nobleman and as such she is doing her best to pursue her music.
You talk of "fedora antics". I'm not sure exactly what that term means, but from the context, it sounds like you are criticising Kvothe trying to impress her or something and being misogynist? I find this all very weird as Denna acts very independently throughout the entirety of the series and it's made really clear that her survival is due to her own prowess. The only scene where you expect Kvothe to save her (the alleyway scene) Denna
.
In regards to someone saying "[Kvothe] outfucks the fuck goddess" that's completely inaccurate. Kvothe bests her with his power over naming (that quickly vanishes) and his wits. The reason he stays is explicitly stated to be because Felurian doesn't want him to go out in the world with how embarrassingly bad he is at sex. It's cool if you don't like the scene but at least be truthful in your criticisms.
You talk of "fedora antics". I'm not sure exactly what that term means, but from the context, it sounds like you are criticising Kvothe trying to impress her or something and being misogynist? I find this all very weird as Denna acts very independently throughout the entirety of the series and it's made really clear that her survival is due to her own prowess. The only scene where you expect Kvothe to save her (the alleyway scene) Denna
capably defends herself and saves a girl from getting raped
In regards to someone saying "[Kvothe] outfucks the fuck goddess" that's completely inaccurate. Kvothe bests her with his power over naming (that quickly vanishes) and his wits. The reason he stays is explicitly stated to be because Felurian doesn't want him to go out in the world with how embarrassingly bad he is at sex. It's cool if you don't like the scene but at least be truthful in your criticisms.
Coriolanus
Banned
You're projecting. Hard. No one even mentioned her boning other people as a negative. They mentioned that in the context of Kvothe saying retarded shit to justify to himself that he got a super secret special connection to her.
I care not for Denna because i have never been given a reason to care for Denna.
It is that simple.
He fucked her until he understood the very essence of her being. That was literally what happened.
I care not for Denna because i have never been given a reason to care for Denna.
It is that simple.
In regards to someone saying "[Kvothe] outfucks the fuck goddess" that's completely inaccurate. Kvothe bests her with his power over naming (that quickly vanishes) and his wits. The reason he stays is explicitly stated to be because Felurian doesn't want him to go out in the world with how embarrassingly bad he is at sex. It's cool if you don't like the scene but at least be truthful in your criticisms.
He fucked her until he understood the very essence of her being. That was literally what happened.
He fucked her until he understood the very essence of her being. That was literally what happened.
Lets be honest here, it was the equivalent of Goku stepping into a hyperbolic time chamber of fucking them coming out with a new Kamehameha. Just instead of a new fireball skill Kvothe came out with the ability to cast Thousand Fingers at a woman's vagina.
I remember laughing at some of the stuff.
You're projecting. Hard. No one even mentioned her boning other people as a negative. They mentioned that in the context of Kvothe saying retarded shit to justify to himself that he got a super secret special connection to her.
I care not for Denna because i have never been given a reason to care for Denna.
It is that simple.
He fucked her until he understood the very essence of her being. That was literally what happened.
No it wasn't. Felurian was dominating his mind and that's what he reacted to. That awakened his "sleeping mind" and with that he was able to understand her nature. The same way he could understand the wind. And again, he quickly lost that power.
Coriolanus
Banned
No it wasn't. Felurian was dominating his mind and that's what he reacted to. That awakened his "sleeping mind" and with that he was able to understand her nature. The same way he could understand the wind. And again, he quickly lost that power.
Yes. He understood a fuck goddes because she jedi mind controlled him. Not because he was fucking a fuck goddes. Totes
It has long been established that kvothe's naming power only comes and stays for as long as the writer needs that particular deus ex machina.
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To expand: even assuming that everybody in this thread is misremembering, then you have three scenarios
One: kvothe leveled his Thousand Finger skill and beat Fellurian. Crappy writing, but shows some degree of character development
Two: Deus ex Machina.
Three: 1+2.
Either way it's a crap scene, mate.
Yes. He understood a fuck goddes because she jedi mind controlled him. Not because he was fucking a fuck goddes. Totes
It has long been established that kvothe's naming power only comes and stays for as long as the writer needs that particular deus ex machina.
Look using "totes" is not an argument. You can be as obstinate as you like though.
Um, no. The Felurian incident is the only section in the entire series were his naming power saves his life - all the other life-threatening incidents he survives by his other skills. The first time was when Ambrose broke his lute - hardly a life-threatening occasion and actually resulted in Kvothe almost dying. The other notable section of "saving the day" was with
Denna in Tarbean. But at that point Kvothe was capable of calling the name of the wind at will, hardly a Deus Ex Machina
As the afternoon slowly slid by, I knew this was the right time to bring up the subject I had been biting my tongue over for so long. I could see the dull green of old bruises on her upper arms, the remnant of a raised welt on her back. There was a scar on her leg above her knee, new enough that the red of it showed through the white of her shift.
All I needed to do was ask about them. If I phrased things carefully, sheÂ’d admit they were from her patron. From there it would be a simple thing to draw her out. To convince her she deserved better. That whatever he was offering her was not worth this abuse.
And for the first time in my life, I was in a position to offer her a way out. With AlveronÂ’s line of credit and my work in the Fishery, money would never be a problem for me. For the first time in my life, I was wealthy. I could give her a way to escape. . . .
Here, Kvothe literally fantasizes to himself that, with his newfound financial security, he can rescue Denna from her current boyfriend situation.
This is the current state of one of the most developed characters you've ever read. Who loathes the idea of being beholden to some nobleman. Who is doing her best to pursue her music. The kicker is how Kvothe/Denna justifies it to themselves.
“They whipped you?” she said, incredulous.
“Twice,” I said.
“And you stay there?” she asked as if she still couldn’t believe it. “After they did this to you?”
I shrugged it away. “There are worse things than whipping,” I said. “There’s nowhere else I can learn the things they teach here. When I want a thing it takes more than a little blood to . . .”
It was only then I realized what I was saying. The masters whipped me. Her patron beat her. And we both stayed. How could I convince her my situation was different? How could I convince her to leave?
He thinks his being disciplined for breaking the rules of college is the same as her abuse at the hands of her patron.
Er, sorry, but how many books have you read? Are they all dude-fiction technothrillers and then Kingkiller? Is your only other exposure to fantasy Mark Lawrence?Don't really understand all of the Denna hate. She's certainly one of the more developed female characters that I've read. Are you guys mad that she has to go out with a lot of different men or something? The era of the books is one in which women have basically no rights and entirely dependent on marrying into a family, and, worse, Denna has no family of her own. So, it's either prostitution, being a mistress to a noble, or the very unlikely attempt to become a well-known musician. She makes it clear that she loathes the idea of being beholden to some nobleman and as such she is doing her best to pursue her music.
Here, Kvothe literally fantasizes to himself that, with his newfound financial security, he can rescue Denna from her current boyfriend situation.
This is the current state of one of the most developed characters you've ever read. Who loathes the idea of being beholden to some nobleman. Who is doing her best to pursue her music.
How does Kvothe's fantasies reflect even remotely on Denna's character? They reflect Kvothe's character and I think it's pretty understandable that someone would think about helping out a dear friend who is in an abusive relationship.
Please, tell me, what was Denna's response to Kvothe when he told her could offer her a way through the Maer? Her actions define her character.
EDIT2" Her patron is not her boyfriend in anyway. Where the hell did you get that from?
EDIT:
Ad hominems are pretty lame, don't you think?Er, sorry, but how many books have you read? Are they all dude-fiction technothrillers and then Kingkiller? Is your only other exposure to fantasy Mark Lawrence?
Denna's the fantasy archetype of the unattainable goal, not a well developed person. I can name a half dozen better developed characters off the top of my head, and if we're looking for a supporting female character who happens to be the object of the male hero's infatuation/love, Sabetha from the Gentlemen Bastards series is all that but actually executed competently.
EDIT:
Ad hominems are pretty lame, don't you think?
The question might've been phrased with a bit of hostility, but it's honestly a legitimate question. If you make statements like that about a character like Denna, one must question what type of fiction you normally read. Regardless of ones feelings towards the character herself, we often aren't given any sort of insight into what she's truly thinking or feeling. Her being underdeveloped is actually used as a point of intrigue, as she is quite the mystery at this point in the narrative.
He thinks his being disciplined for breaking the rules of college is the same as her abuse at the hands of her patron.
They are pretty similar aren't they? Both being physically abused because someone thinks he deserves. Hell, The masters almost outright admit that Kvothe didn't deserve it but simply needs to be whipped for the image of the school. There's a reason corporal punishments are not a thing anymore - it's abusive.
How is she not a well-developed person?
Denna's the fantasy archetype of the unattainable goal, not a well developed person. I can name a half dozen better developed characters off the top of my head, and if we're looking for a supporting female character who happens to be the object of the male hero's infatuation/love, Sabetha from the Gentlemen Bastards series is all that but actually executed competently.
How is she not a well-developed person?
Denna's the fantasy archetype of the unattainable goal, not a well developed person. I can name a half dozen better developed characters off the top of my head, and if we're looking for a supporting female character who happens to be the object of the male hero's infatuation/love, Sabetha from the Gentlemen Bastards series is all that but actually executed competently.
She's definitely the unattainable goal. I don't think that means she is a bad character. I mean look at how little Denna matters. I'm hardly sitting here waiting to find out what happens to her. What matters is the impact she has on Kvothe and I think we all realize, within the context of the story, that she can have a major impact on him and is very likely going to be one of his downfalls. He sold me on that aspect of her and it could possibly be the only aspect that matters.
They are pretty similar aren't they? Both being physically abused because someone thinks he deserves.
No.
God no.
Kvothe was whipped for breaking the school's rules. It's an archaic punishment that belongs more in the military than in an institute of learning, but it wasn't something that came out of nowhere. As someone who voluntarily enrolled into the school, he is expected to know the rules and to follow them. Break them? Pay the price, and move on. This is a case of owning up to one's societal responsibilities.
That is drastically different from an abusive interpersonal relationship, which, in real life at least, comes from some form of emotional or financial dependency.
You said, right here:
With the implication that Denna is a character rebelling against the status quo.The era of the books is one in which women have basically no rights and entirely dependent on marrying into a family, and, worse, Denna has no family of her own. So, it's either prostitution, being a mistress to a noble, or the very unlikely attempt to become a well-known musician. She makes it clear that she loathes the idea of being beholden to some nobleman and as such she is doing her best to pursue her music.
How can you reconcile that with her staying in an abusive relationship?
This is her character:EDIT2" Her patron is not her boyfriend in anyway. Where the hell did you get that from?
There is no way that her relationships with her patrons were completely platonic and professional. Keep in mind that this world has the same attitude towards women as Medieval Europe. I won't claim that she's prostituting herself, but it is extremely likely that all her relationships with men are established on romantic terms.They clung to her with desperate determination. Some of them merely resented my presence, saw me as a rival. But others had a frightened knowledge buried deep behind their eyes from the beginning. They knew she was leaving, and they didn’t know why. So they clutched at her like shipwrecked sailors, clinging to the rocks despite the fact that they are being battered to death against them. I almost felt sorry for them. Almost.
So they hated me, and it shone in their eyes when Denna wasn’t looking. I would offer to buy another round of drinks, but he would insist, and I would graciously accept, and thank him, and smile.
I have known her longer, my smile said. True, you have been inside the circle of her arms, tasted her mouth, felt the warmth of her, and that something I have never had. But there is a part of her that is only for me. You cannot touch it, no matter how hard you might try. And after she has left you I will still be here, making her laugh. My light shining in her. I will still be here long after she has forgotten your name.
There were more than a few. She went through them like a pen through wet paper. She left them, disappointed. Or, frustrated, they abandoned her, leaving her heartsore, moved to sadness but never as far as tears.
Conkersbadfurday
Member
Yeah, pretty much OP. But Kvothe is insufferable too, so I guess the two are made for each other.
Coriolanus
Banned
Pointing out that using totes is not an argument is not an argument. You can be as obstinate as you like. Seriously, don't try to play this kind of word game. It'll be circular.Look using "totes" is not an argument. You can be as obstinate as you like though.
Um, no. The Felurian incident is the only section in the entire series were his naming power saves his life - all the other life-threatening incidents he survives by his other skills. The first time was when Ambrose broke his lute - hardly a life-threatening occasion and actually resulted in Kvothe almost dying. The other notable section of "saving the day" was with.Denna in Tarbean. But at that point Kvothe was capable of calling the name of the wind at will, hardly a Deus Ex Machina
A deus ex machina needs not be life-saving to be a deus ex machina. It just needs to come out of absolutely nowhere. Like, say, fuckzone granted mind control. But you ain't even arguing that, at best, it was a deus ex machina, yes?
It is still left ambiguous if young kvothe has finally learned the name of the wind for good, which is why, in one of the legit high points of the second book, he teases Quirky Teacher about sporting a wind ring. Maybe.
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