Ugh, no. Konami doesn't 'get' Castlevania anymore, but WayForward wouldn't either.
So friggin' true.
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Konami pisses me off (Castlevania)
- Thread starter CentroXer
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Ugh, no. Konami doesn't 'get' Castlevania anymore, but WayForward wouldn't either.
So friggin' true.
While Castlevania is definitely the worst, it is far from the only great series that Konami has completely abandoned, and it breaks my heart. In the 8- and 16-bit games Konami rivaled even Nintendo, and now they are a complete joke only producing one franchise. So sad 
Oh Wayforward gets Castlevania. Have you played BloodRayne on xbla psn? That's true Vania right there. Also Aliens Infestation on DS. Yeah, I'd totally give them the IP.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Mercurysteam management was basically imploding during LoS2's development. Read about it here (and confirmed by a second developer here)
I'd say the "SotN impersonations" were a symptom, not the cause of Castlevania going to hell (that would be Konami's budgeting). The reused sprites is a pretty clear example of cost-cutting measures and we've heard stories about how under-staffed and under-funded the games were. I'm one of the last people who would stand up to defend Igarashi (and my opinion is pretty close to yours, Snaku), but even I have to admit he was put in a shitty position by a shitty company and probably did the best he could. I found a few of the post-SotN 2D games decent (Ecclesia is easily the best, Aria is alright) so it wasn't a total loss, but his attitude to the series at large and insistence on throwing money at horrible 3-D games has always rubbed me the wrong way. One wonders if the reason the 2-D games were such half-assed attempts is because the budget was going towards crap-fests like Curse of Darkness and Judgement, but at least we were still getting the occasional Castlevania game which is better than none at all.
For what it's worth, Mercurysteam has confirmed that they had no plans beyond LoS2 and that they will not be working on Castlevania again (the rumor is that they're going to fuck up Contra next).
This man gets it.
No they don't. I own and have played both. The maps are a joke if we are comparing. They are incredibly pedestrian and linear, and don't have thoughtful breadcrumbing visual clues at all. Alien is an especially horrible example... it isn't even in the same category as something like SOTN or the GBA/DS vanias if you're talking about puzzles/platforming/density of interactions.
It amazes me how Konami is even still around anymore. What do they even make and release anymore besides Metal Gear Solid once/twice a generation? That soccer game, is that even popular anymore?
Yeah, because the alternative aka the present state of Castlevania is so fucking wonderful, right?
Yeah, because the alternative aka the present state of Castlevania is so fucking wonderful, right?
Alex_Mexico
Member
Castlevania Lords of Shadow 1 ended up being THE best selling CV game in franchise history (confirmed by Konami and David Cox) and with 85 on Metacritic. Konami was so satisfied that they didn't green light one, but two sequels.
What happened with those sequels and whether or not Konami, critics and fans were satisfied is an entirely different matter.
It wasn't the production values that impressed me, it was the tight gameplay and challenging variety of combos and bosses that did. The game being easy on the eyes/ears didn't hurt either.
So yeah Lords of Shadow was awesome. Haven't played the 2nd one yet, but a lot of people seem to be disappointed that it didn't maintain the same level of quality as the first one.
I guess at this point Kojima should be in charge of the Castlevania and Suikoden IPs and not just MGS and Silent Hill. His team should directly supervise at least these 4 major franchises while Konami continues to shit the bed, but then again that's too much for one team.
I will never understand the mentality of "I'd rather no games be made unless..."
Because having no games made and the IP just languishing away is the best possible outcome?
I think the problem with IGA's approach was several factors. First was the fact that he was likely on a budget which made him reuse his assets all over. Also I think he was in a bind because the fans kept demanding him to make "Metroidvania" (I so hate this term) again and again in hopes that he can "duplicate" his magic of SotN. This is a problematic approach because you can never truly duplicate something like that. Then you throw in his own failed attempts at 3D Castlevanias which were pretty lackluster.
Konami saw the IP was stagnating and that's why they went with Lords of Shadow, and the first one did good for them. The "second" one (Mirror of Fate) would inevitably be compared to IGA's titles unfavorably which earned it the ire of reviewers and fans (IMO I felt it was better to be compared to pre-SotN games). Then LoS2, which did have lots of positive hype and previews, released to very dissatisfied reviews and customer opinion (though some criticism was super exaggerated, the particularly bad ending put a real damper on the experience). Though MercurySteam had stated prior to release that it was going to be their last Castlevania.
It's only been less than a year since LoS2 was released so I doubt Konami is even close to revealing what their next plans are for the IP. I still think it'd be a good investment to take the LoS2 engine and make a new game out of that with a new team.
Because having no games made and the IP just languishing away is the best possible outcome?
I think the problem with IGA's approach was several factors. First was the fact that he was likely on a budget which made him reuse his assets all over. Also I think he was in a bind because the fans kept demanding him to make "Metroidvania" (I so hate this term) again and again in hopes that he can "duplicate" his magic of SotN. This is a problematic approach because you can never truly duplicate something like that. Then you throw in his own failed attempts at 3D Castlevanias which were pretty lackluster.
Konami saw the IP was stagnating and that's why they went with Lords of Shadow, and the first one did good for them. The "second" one (Mirror of Fate) would inevitably be compared to IGA's titles unfavorably which earned it the ire of reviewers and fans (IMO I felt it was better to be compared to pre-SotN games). Then LoS2, which did have lots of positive hype and previews, released to very dissatisfied reviews and customer opinion (though some criticism was super exaggerated, the particularly bad ending put a real damper on the experience). Though MercurySteam had stated prior to release that it was going to be their last Castlevania.
It's only been less than a year since LoS2 was released so I doubt Konami is even close to revealing what their next plans are for the IP. I still think it'd be a good investment to take the LoS2 engine and make a new game out of that with a new team.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
Stop trolling.
Slamtastic
Member
As great as MGR2 would be, I hope Konami also gives Platinum a crack (no pun intended) at Castlevania.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Are you kidding? PES is Konami's bread and butter. It's annualized and while it's not close to its peak of popularity or never as near in sales to FIFA they still manage to sell 4-5 million PES every year. And that's a lot.
But yeah I agree. Konami is a shell of its former self. Nothing but MGS and PES anymore.
I hope Suikoden can get a second wind now after all the attention it got with Suikoden 2 on psn.
Nocturnowl
Member
Unfortunately despite good critical reception I think the continuous release of solid yet samey Igavania titles started a decline in sales leading to Order of Ecclesia being the last of its kind, a shame considering that was the best one in years.
I see why they pushed the Mercury Steam route in the wake of the first LoS game performing pretty well but clearly that didn't pan out in the long run.
A bigger issue for Mirror of Fate was probably trying to be this weird mix of Iga style and Mercury Steam's own LoS style gameplay to appease all angles that didn't entirely mesh. I think it's an enjoyable enough if completely average game but it was never going to win other those that don't care for the LoS style nor do I imagine the fans of the console game being particularly drawn in by the smaller scale handheld outing that lacks the spectacle and visual draw of its console counterpart so that was pretty much a bust.
But you know it's modern Konami so fumbling around is par for the course I'd say, unfortunately.
I see why they pushed the Mercury Steam route in the wake of the first LoS game performing pretty well but clearly that didn't pan out in the long run.
A bigger issue for Mirror of Fate was probably trying to be this weird mix of Iga style and Mercury Steam's own LoS style gameplay to appease all angles that didn't entirely mesh. I think it's an enjoyable enough if completely average game but it was never going to win other those that don't care for the LoS style nor do I imagine the fans of the console game being particularly drawn in by the smaller scale handheld outing that lacks the spectacle and visual draw of its console counterpart so that was pretty much a bust.
But you know it's modern Konami so fumbling around is par for the course I'd say, unfortunately.
It really hits many of the spots I'd expect from a 3D Castlevania more than any actual 3D Castlevania.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
I'm getting tired of these threads popping up and the discussion always devolves into a bashing of IGA: of how Toru Hagihara did all the work on SotN and IGA piggybanked on its success (fake info), or how he recycled the "same game" over and over (he had almost no budget and games like CotM, AoS, and PoR play very differently), or how pre-SotN games are "true Castlevania" (fuck off, besides we did get DxC and Adventure Rebirth). If you didn't play anything post-SotN, you clearly haven't cared about anything Castlevania in 15 years so keep your uninformed opinion to yourself.
Same thing could be said about true 2D Metroids. Zero Mission released over 10 years ago... Where the hell have these classic franchises been which even coined the term 'Metroidvania'..?
I've been havong so much fun with Guacamelee recently but it just still isn't the same. It's a great game but in my opinion lacks the quality and length of 2D Metroids and Castlevanias. Any other modern release someone could recommend?
I've been havong so much fun with Guacamelee recently but it just still isn't the same. It's a great game but in my opinion lacks the quality and length of 2D Metroids and Castlevanias. Any other modern release someone could recommend?
hikarutilmitt
Member
I respectfully disagree. WayForward has had some missteps (which I'll mention below) just like any publisher, but they by and large "get" what made a game series what it was when they get the license to do it or make something similar to it (Contra 4). I have no doubt they could and would pull off a great Castlevania game in either style.
I love WF games, but Bloodrayne was not one of their good games. I tried and tried to get into it but the way it played, the animation and the layout was very weak feeling. It felt like they experimented with it but got carried away and it came out somewhat unsure of itself. And I was rather looking forward to it given the previews for it.
Agree with Bloodrayne sentiments, disagree slightly on Alien. While not the same level as SOTN, I feel like there's some rose-tinting going on with comparing it, as the more I play SOTN the more corners I see cut and the more "safe" choices I see being made, budget be damned. It's on a pedestal it, IMO, doesn't deserve.
I've played every Castlevania game in some form or another. I think by your own merit I'm "allowed" to call platforming, pit jumping Castlevania "true Castlevania" as it's what the series started at, ran with for years across several iterations and is, by itself, still in the majority of the game style (even if by a slim margin). It was also where most of the creativity in the series originated (look at all the reused Rondo sprites) and where its gameplay was its "purest" and couldn't just be cheesed past. Adventure Rebirth was a breath of fresh air and DXC was a good way to finally get an English version of Rondo to the west so other people could partake, even if you had to play that horribly slow remake to unlock it (and the arguably best version of SOTN
).But, to me, the classic series peaked with 3. Whatever.
Konami used to be my favourite developer after Nintendo. Their logo almost guaranteed awesome graphics, music and gameplay.
What a waste.
I blame the westernization of the industry and a massive shift in Konami's internal focus as a result.
Epic shooter open world witty adventure theft simulator X has a lot to answer for. The more realistic games become the less Western audiences are willing to accept the idiosyncracies of Japanese expression. As soon as Simon Belmont and those around him had to speak and act, Konami was almost forced to palm the franchise off to garbage western dev X to turn it into something it never was.
I love the success From is having with the Souls series... but their games seem like an anomaly in the present day and they work because of it.
What a waste.
I blame the westernization of the industry and a massive shift in Konami's internal focus as a result.
Epic shooter open world witty adventure theft simulator X has a lot to answer for. The more realistic games become the less Western audiences are willing to accept the idiosyncracies of Japanese expression. As soon as Simon Belmont and those around him had to speak and act, Konami was almost forced to palm the franchise off to garbage western dev X to turn it into something it never was.
I love the success From is having with the Souls series... but their games seem like an anomaly in the present day and they work because of it.
hikarutilmitt
Member
Another thing to consider about both Castlevania and Metroid is that the creators of each have said before that they're popular in the west than in Japan. This was actually part of the reason they were starting to call them Castlevania in Japan for a couple of games then went back to Akumajo.
It's very possible that the recent mediocrity of the games in their respective series and not having recent (good) portable games to speak of is why they're even less popular in Japan and them being what they are to a modern western audience is partly to blame.
It's very possible that the recent mediocrity of the games in their respective series and not having recent (good) portable games to speak of is why they're even less popular in Japan and them being what they are to a modern western audience is partly to blame.
The last 10 years of Konami games have been the most disappointing self-destruction of a videogame publisher there has ever been. They went from being the second best publisher of console games (after Nintendo) in the 80s and 90s to ruining every single one of their franchises (except Gradius?) and even taking out some others on the way down.
BasilZero
Member
I agree with the spoiler'd lol.
GAF, circa 2008: "Ugh why do they just keep cranking out cheap Igavanias with reused assets, they're boring and I'm not gonna buy any more"
GAF, circa 2014: "Ugh why did they stop annualized Igavania, I'm not gonna buy anything they make because of this... Okay, maybe MGS"
The near-complete death of the Western handheld market can't help either.
GAF, circa 2014: "Ugh why did they stop annualized Igavania, I'm not gonna buy anything they make because of this... Okay, maybe MGS"
GAF, circa 2020: "Ugh why does Konami literally make only MGS"
The near-complete death of the Western handheld market can't help either.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Not just CV, as Konami has generally abandoned most of their great legacy. They've primarily been the Kojima/MGS company for almost a decade now. It's sad as fuck, but they're not the only publisher who has fallen from their peak almost multiple decades ago when Capcom, Square-Enix, and Sega are all in the same boat.
KojiKnight
Member
While Castlevania is definitely the worst, it is far from the only great series that Konami has completely abandoned, and it breaks my heart. In the 8- and 16-bit games Konami rivaled even Nintendo, and now they are a complete joke only producing one franchise. So sad
RIP Goemon... you're in a better place now... at least you didn't get a 'reboot' like bomberman.
This makes the assumption Konami puts out product worth buying. To me, all they had left was Castlevania and Metal Gear.
2014 has reminded me that all they have left is Metal Gear.
I do wish they would have moved away from being Nintendo only releases, I bought a DS for the DS line of Castlevania games and it is a damn shame that the series ended with one of the best in OoE. We know they had little to no budget, but these days especially it has never been easier to get a game released on multiple platforms, indies are having a lot of success with smaller titles across pretty much every platform, it is a shame we wont get a Castlevania in the same way.
magnumpy
Member
sadly I think they have moved on to more profitable waters. not that they're making large amounts of money off castlevania now, but I think something with large amounts of DLC and InAppPurchases is more what they're shooting for. so SOTN style catlevania just isn't profitable enough for them. sad but true.
Snkfanatic
Banned
Been a long while since I have found a opinion I disagree with as much as this.
Team Top Hat
Banned
The big 3 on GBA and DS will remain the best, never to be topped. ={
MagnaderAlpha
Member
I don't understand why they never went further when SotN hit the market. You had a CD-quality game, great graphics, music, yadda yadda, that resonated with gamers. You'd think the follow-up would be something to top that in quality to gain a LARGER audience. Instead they let the formula slip to GBA(then DS). The deviations(The N64 games and PS2 games) didn't feel as focused. It's almost like they had no idea what the hell they wanted to do with the CV series. It would've been interesting had they put faith into the series to take it into some grand direction, which I feel LoS was going to do. But while LoS was spectacular, to me it felt like catching lightning in a bottle when compared to MoF and LoS2.
I'll take a linear Castlevania over a Metroidvania.
Cyber Caesar
Member
This man speaks the truth.
SlasherJPC
Banned
Do a symphony of the night sequel, make it with a huge map, beautiful 2d/3D graphics and amazing artwork. Do it Konami!
Schweinehund
Member
Konami's version of mega man .
From, Platinum and Nintendo are the only Japanese gaming companies I've come to rely on. Sqenix, Konami and Capcom are mostly shells of their former selves.
.From, Platinum and Nintendo are the only Japanese gaming companies I've come to rely on. Sqenix, Konami and Capcom are mostly shells of their former selves.
brandonh83
Banned
Damn right. The second one isn't as good but I didn't dislike it. The core reasons why the first was good were still mostly present, but there are a lot of smaller things that are just weird and don't quite add up. The gameplay, bosses, art and music were fantastic which is why I don't think its a bad game, but it's also far more disappointing in other areas like story and exploration. Also they really did a terrible job with the open world aspect. I mean just beyond awful. The game should have had the chapter structure of the first one which despite having a drawn out first act kept things moving forward at a good beat. The second one has a very sloppy, convoluted, and downright confusing connected world.
TacosNSalsa
Member
I enjoyed the first LoS. LoS 2 however ... I turned down the difficulty and turned off the QTEs just so I don't have to replay any part and have the game remind me for the umpteenth time that back is to view artwork...ugh..And I swear I think just fought a Metal Gear
HYDE
Member
Konami's version of mega man
From, Platinum and Nintendo are the only Japanese gaming companies I've come to rely on. Sqenix, Konami and Capcom, Sega, and Tecmo are mostly shells of their former selves.
Fixed..
wondermega
Member
It's an unfortunate state of affairs, to be sure, but what do you want? These games have simply gone out of style, to the point that these big publishers really aren't interested in following up with the legacy anymore. Sure, they "could" and they have done so to different degrees over the years (Igavanias, Hardcore Uprising, Contra 4) but I am going to suspect that the numbers these games were doing were diminishing to the point where it simply was not worth the effort. The sad truth is the mainstream gaming public as a whole has no interest in such franchises, they are niche. And of course so much of what has been said earlier in this thread - the people who have originally made those franchises into what they were, are long since departed from either the company or the industry or what have you.
It's not all bad news, the spirit of those older games lives on through devs who they have touched. It sucks because people here (myself included) would love to see a modern update for Mega Man, Castlevania, Contra, Gradius, etc which are true to their source material and not just in name only: but since that's really not happening, dig around in the other scenes (downloadable, indie) and see that there's a fair representation of spiritual follow-ups in the mix. They are not in short supply - they may be a little unbalanced (how many more indie metroidvanias do we really need?) but there is an active enough scene that produces such output.
And the knee-jerk to that answer, sadly, is that those who do keep a keen eye on the indie scene will often jump on such games "this is a ripoff of [classic game], I am tired of so many indies making throwback games.. indie games are junk, not 'real games,' etc" This is not the overpowering response, fortunately, but it is a strong one.
Anyway, the takeaway is that although Konami/Capcom/etc have long since abandoned these beloved decades-old franchises, that doesn't mean these styles of gaming are dead and buried. If not in name, they do continue to survive in spirit, and the best of them will still get a chance to thrive. All it requires of the audience is to do some work and dig around, participate, and support with your $$ and your word of mouth.
It's not all bad news, the spirit of those older games lives on through devs who they have touched. It sucks because people here (myself included) would love to see a modern update for Mega Man, Castlevania, Contra, Gradius, etc which are true to their source material and not just in name only: but since that's really not happening, dig around in the other scenes (downloadable, indie) and see that there's a fair representation of spiritual follow-ups in the mix. They are not in short supply - they may be a little unbalanced (how many more indie metroidvanias do we really need?) but there is an active enough scene that produces such output.
And the knee-jerk to that answer, sadly, is that those who do keep a keen eye on the indie scene will often jump on such games "this is a ripoff of [classic game], I am tired of so many indies making throwback games.. indie games are junk, not 'real games,' etc" This is not the overpowering response, fortunately, but it is a strong one.
Anyway, the takeaway is that although Konami/Capcom/etc have long since abandoned these beloved decades-old franchises, that doesn't mean these styles of gaming are dead and buried. If not in name, they do continue to survive in spirit, and the best of them will still get a chance to thrive. All it requires of the audience is to do some work and dig around, participate, and support with your $$ and your word of mouth.
People misinterpreted my use of 'linear' in previous posts. I actually like linear games, and REALLY like (if not love) many of the linear Castlevanias, but Wayforward makes meandering metroidvania-style maps that are linear in their pathing. I also personally find their efforts to be very unaltruistic in their breadcrumbing.
Wayforward would not be the worst choice to make a new 2D Castlevania, but they would be an uninspired one... And one I would not be excited for. Their visuals are reliably pretty, but their game design is reliably bland; sometimes adequate.
Wayforward would not be the worst choice to make a new 2D Castlevania, but they would be an uninspired one... And one I would not be excited for. Their visuals are reliably pretty, but their game design is reliably bland; sometimes adequate.