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[WanderingWind]

Never feel sorry for someone pathetic enough to take their own life.

Yeah!

Also, why don't those retards just straighten up and fly right! Fuckers just want a suckle at that sweet socialist paycheck!

Not to mention those lazy blind people. Why the fuck don't they want to see? If they would stop waiting for somebody to do it for them, they would just stop feeling sorry for themselves, pull themselves up by their bootstraps and squint a little bit, they'd be fine.

It's amazing, the amount of people who still blame mental illnesses on the victims. Amazing, and very indicative of just how far we haven't come as a society.

 

[-COOLIO-]

so the question is what value does your family and your loved ones have to you if you are dead ?

If you believe that there is no life after death and are thinking strictly utilitarian and egocentric then they dont have any value to you because you cant benefit from them at all.

does that make you an asshole. I think not. its just a matter of belief. (not saying that i would not see any value in my family or my loved ones after death)

just because i dont believe in life after death doesnt mean im egocentric. like i said before, all life should be is a pursuit of happiness for yourself and others. ideally, if youre a good soul, then the latter should lead to the former. the act of killing yourself is counter-productive to both of these goals. so in my eye's while it may be the last thing the person ever did, it's still very morally wrong in most cases.

 

[RiZ III]

Damn that sucks =(

 

[Srsly]

just because i dont believe in life after death doesnt mean im egocentric. like i said before, all life should be is a pursuit of happiness for yourself and others. ideally, if youre a good soul, then the latter should lead to the former. the act of killing yourself is counter-productive to both of these goals. so in my eye's while it may be the last thing the person ever did, it's still very morally wrong in most cases.

I really don't think you're in a position to make assumptions about suicide as you clearly don't understand the factors that lead up to it. Nobody who is suicidal is mentally stable -- nobody, and they are likely severely depressed. Suicide is almost an involuntary action in that people who commit suicide can't change their thought processes on their own. These thought processes usually start out as a few random fleeting thoughts about what it would be like to end it, but progress into completely dominating the mind every waking moment. If you think this is normal, you're insane. People who are suicidal don't have the capacity to think of the repercussions of their actions.

As for good souls, lol

 

[.la1n]

There's really nothing else I can think of to say to this except fuck you, idiot.

He actually made a valid argument, you on the other hand dished back with something similar to what would be considered a come back in 4th grade. Bravo.

Also this is coming from me, someone who has experienced a family member taking there own life and has delt with mental health issues nearly my entire life. I can relate to what he was probably going through on some level but i'm not so closed minded as to immediately disregard someone who believes that what he did was a selfish act and I also tend to agree.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Yeah!

Also, why don't those retards just straighten up and fly right! Fuckers just want a suckle at that sweet socialist paycheck!

Not to mention those lazy blind people. Why the fuck don't they want to see? If they would stop waiting for somebody to do it for them, they would just stop feeling sorry for themselves, pull themselves up by their bootstraps and squint a little bit, they'd be fine.

It's amazing, the amount of people who still blame mental illnesses on the victims. Amazing, and very indicative of just how far we haven't come as a society.

while i don't agree with the never in that statement i do wonder how it is that so much of gaf happen to be experts on mental illness.

to understand the kind of mental illness required to kill yourself, then i think you need to:

a) have experienced it yourself, in which case you would be dead.

b) be an advanced student of psychology or mental illness.

im neither, but ive taken first year psychology and a good portion of the term was focused on mental illness. i get that there is a strong, rare type of brain programming that will make a person incapable of doing anything willingly, but another focus was on the ways in how people overcome and fight most cases of depression.

i don't think that mental illness is always so severe that nothing can be done about it. certainly not in most cases. certainly not in enough cases that i would assume the korean actor was afflicted with unconquerable depression rather than the run of the mill brand.

 

[flsh]

1. how is no one getting that im not putting suicide on the same level as murder?

2. fine, but your parents have probably invested their entire life in you, you probably have people that count on you. it's your right to take your life, and it's also you're right to act like an asshole, but neither of these things is going to make people like you, and they do have the right to call you an asshole after the fact if you just killed yourself without a satisfactory explanation. essssspecially on your father's deathbed. it's your right to kill yourself and it's my right to ridicule you after youre dead.

3. i don't think determinists believe in choice. if they do, then i'm something else i guess.

4. if a friend died in a car accident, id cry my eyes out. if he commited suicide, with no explanation, without any signs of putting up a good fight. then no, i wouldnt. if you don't understand this, then you don't understand what it's like to have the value system than i do. maybe id cry after i forgave them in the long run, but certainly not while the hate for their actions was fresh in my mind at their funeral.

5. the real tragedy isnt that he wished to die, it's that he pissed on the relationships of his family and loved ones with an easy cop out. it's also because he couldnt fight his depression better because of an appreciation of life.

does my hate of suicide mean that it's never acceptable? no. same with murder.

im pro euthenasia when people are suffering or their life is going to be short lived anyway.

if people are living with unbearable external factors then that's fine too

if people are extremely depressed, as in the raaaare kind with a huuuuge hormonal imbalance or whatever that saps their will to do anything to fix it

hell even if people are just extremely depressed and they've fought admirably with psychiatry and medicine to fight it. then they can kill themselves too as long as they offer an explanation to their loved ones.

you know why i hate suicide so much? 2 reasons. first, i dont believe in an after life. second, i believe the pursuit of happiness for yourself and others is the only true good in this universe. if there's no chance of you experiencing happiness again in your life, then kill yourself, that's fine. but that kind of state has got to be a very rare thing. to deny yourself and others happiness is in my opinion a very bad thing to do. it's also a very hard to do in general, but one way of doing it is by killing yourself.

I didn't say (or don't think I did. My mistake if I did) you compared the two. I wanted to differentiate the two myself to built on that differentiation.
I have nothing else to say about point 2 other than a repeat of what I said. Different strokes..
Determinism is the belief that everything that happened was bound to happen because of everything that preceded it. In other words, no choice in life is your choice, as everything you did, you did because there was no alternative. My example was specifically to you, a self declared determinist, to show you you are the one who adds the 'bad' to suicide, not the act itself. To explain - in both cases I died because of "my own fault". In one case, I had the ILLUSION of free will, while in the other I did not. In one case I did what I did because there was no alternative, while in the other I did what I did because there was no alternative (that's determinism, after all). If you are a determinist, you have to come to this conclusion because there is no other conclusion. You can't say that you are a determinist and still say "then you don't understand what it's like to have the value system than i do", because you tricked me into believing you are a determinist, while you aren't. Can you see the contradiction now? Saying those 2 things about yourself is like saying you are all red and all blue at the same time.
Point 4 relates entirely on what I said about determinism and also I have nothing to add.
After this I have no idea how to get the point across. You are the selfish one and you project that on someone else. I have met people who said the same thing as you, until one of their friends committed suicide, and they didn't know, because they were far too self absorbed to notice anything. And believe me, it wasn't unnoticeable at all. You can tell when someone is happy and when someone is depressed. I probably don't have to say this because you already know what happened - all those people who said they wouldn't care for a friend who committed suicide cried. They cried and cried and cried. And you know why? Because their friend had nothing to cling on to and they missed it. There was no one to blame, yet suddenly the ones to be blamed were themselves. All those people now realize that suicide isn't a selfish act. It's an act to end everything because you want out. It's not a cop out, it's not running away and it's not being scared. It's wanting to not be anymore, and that's one of the most tragic things there are.
Also, if you truly believe there's no afterlife, that's all the more reason not to be afraid of dying. What's to be afraid of? Of nothingness? There isn't a you to be afraid of said nothingness...

 

[Srsly]

he actually made a valid argument, you on the other hand dished back with something similar to what would be considered a come back in 4th grade. Bravo.

Can you point out how his argument was valid? To me, it looked like nothing more than assumptions based upon nothing more than his personal feelings with regards to the subject.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I really don't think you're in a position to make assumptions about suicide as you clearly don't understand the factors that lead up to it. Nobody who is suicidal is mentally stable -- nobody, and they are likely severely depressed. Suicide is almost an involuntary action in that people who commit suicide can't change their thought processes on their own. These thought processes usually start out as a few random fleeting thoughts about what it would be like to end it, but progress into completely dominating the mind every waking moment. If you think this is normal, you're insane. People who are suicidal don't have the capacity to think of the repercussions of their actions.

As for good souls, lol

if everyone knew all the factors that lead up to anything, no one could really be held responsible for anything. remember, im a determinist, i feel that everything is just the result of variables set at the big bang.

 

[BocoDragon]

I don't understand why the dichotomy of suicide must swing between "it's unexcusable and morally wrong" or "it's mental illness, a kind of mind defect that causes you to do something which I also agree is wrong".

If someones life sucks... Why wouldn't you want to end it? It seems perfectly logical to me.

You don't often hear that in the cult of the living.. But it's true. Sometimes the circumstances of life conspire in a way that causes you pain (mental or physical) that it is not possible to back out of.. The logical thing to do is to stop living.

I don't begrudge anyone who commits suicide. If I knew them, I would try to stop it. But I always understand the general notion of WHY they'd do it. Sometimes living sucks.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I didn't say (or don't think I did. My mistake if I did) you compared the two. I wanted to differentiate the two myself to built on that differentiation.
I have nothing else to say about point 2 other than a repeat of what I said. Different strokes..
Determinism is the belief that everything that happened was bound to happen because of everything that preceded it. In other words, no choice in life is your choice, as everything you did, you did because there was no alternative. My example was specifically to you, a self declared determinist, to show you you are the one who adds the 'bad' to suicide, not the act itself. To explain - in both cases I died because of "my own fault". In one case, I had the ILLUSION of free will, while in the other I did not. In one case I did what I did because there was no alternative, while in the other I did what I did because there was no alternative (that's determinism, after all). If you are a determinist, you have to come to this conclusion because there is no other conclusion. You can't say that you are a determinist and still say "then you don't understand what it's like to have the value system than i do", because you tricked me into believing you are a determinist, while you aren't. Can you see the contradiction now? Saying those 2 things about yourself is like saying you are all red and all blue at the same time.
Point 4 relates entirely on what I said about determinism and also I have nothing to add.
After this I have no idea how to get the point across. You are the selfish one and you project that on someone else. I have met people who said the same thing as you, until one of their friends committed suicide, and they didn't know, because they were far too self absorbed to notice anything. And believe me, it wasn't unnoticeable at all. You can tell when someone is happy and when someone is depressed. I probably don't have to say this because you already know what happened - all those people who said they wouldn't care for a friend who committed suicide cried. They cried and cried and cried. And you know why? Because their friend had nothing to cling on to and they missed it. There was no one to blame, yet suddenly the ones to be blamed were themselves. All those people now realize that suicide isn't a selfish act. It's an act to end everything because you want out. It's not a cop out, it's not running away and it's not being scared. It's wanting to not be anymore, and that's one of the most tragic things there are.
Also, if you truly believe there's no afterlife, that's all the more reason not to be afraid of dying. What's to be afraid of? Of nothingness? There isn't a you to be afraid of said nothingness...

my system of belief is weird, i know. it's pretty contradictory, i stated the same thing in the op of this thread way back:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358464

while i believe that no one has a choice in what they do, i still believe in someones life track being good and bad. it's really weird, but that somehow makes the most sense to me when i try to make sense out of life.

if someone i love kills them self, ill let you know how the funeral went. if i cried though, then the sadness somehow overran the hate, but i'm pretty sure that i'd still have hate for them.

 

[WanderingWind]

while i don't agree with the never in that statement i do wonder how it is that so much of gaf happen to be experts on mental illness.

to understand the kind of mental illness required to kill yourself, then i think you need to:

a) have experienced it yourself, in which case you would be dead.

b) be an advanced student of psychology or mental illness.

im neither, but ive taken first year psychology and a good portion of the term was focused on mental illness. i get that there is a strong, rare type of brain programming that will make a person incapable of doing anything willingly, but another focus was on the ways in how people overcome and fight most cases of depression.

i don't think that mental illness is always so severe that nothing can be done about it. certainly not in most cases. certainly not in enough cases that i would assume the korean actor was afflicted with unconquerable depression rather than the run of the mill brand.

No, but you're comfortable assuming he was a selfish prick who killed himself to spite your sense of morality.

The very nature of mental illness means you cannot apply the outcome of normal thought processes to the actions of one so inflicted. They are not well, just the same as if somebody had a cold or broken bone would not be well. Just because you can't see the physical signs, does not mean somebody isn't injured.

The only possible argument against this is you don't believe suicidal people are ill. If that's true, then think about how far gone you'd personally have to be in order to pull a razor across your arms, or to tie a rope around your neck, or jump from a building. These are not the acts of a healthy person.

 

[-COOLIO-]

No, but you're comfortable assuming he was a selfish prick who killed himself to spite your sense of morality.

The very nature of mental illness means you cannot apply the outcome of normal thought processes to the actions of one so inflicted. They are not well, just the same as if somebody had a cold or broken bone would not be well. Just because you can't see the physical signs, does not mean somebody isn't injured.

The only possible argument against this is you don't believe suicidal people are ill. If that's true, then think about how far gone you'd personally have to be in order to pull a razor across your arms, or to tie a rope around your neck, or jump from a building. These are not the acts of a healthy person.

there's depression and there's DEPRESSION.

id guess 98%~ of depressed people are simply depressed (based on what ive learned about mental illness and the brain), the kind that they could fight.

thus i will assume that it was morally wrong of someone to kill themselves if i hear about a suicide unless some of those severe circumstances that i mentioned earlier came into play.

most people have suicidal thoughts at some point in their life.

 

[Srsly]

there's depression and there's DEPRESSION.

id guess 98%~ of depressed people are simply depressed (based on what ive learned about mental illness and the brain), the kind that they could fight.

thus i will assume that it was morally wrong of someone to kill themselves if i hear about a suicide unless some of those severe circumstances that i mentioned earlier came into play.

most people have suicidal thoughts at some point in their life.

How many depressed people commit suicide? I'll give you a hint: it's a very small percentage

 

[-COOLIO-]

How many depressed people commit suicide? I'll give you a hint: it's a very small percentage

im glad the survivors fought it, theyre good people.

 

[Srsly]

im glad the survivors fought it, theyre good people.

I'm glad depression doesn't run on a spectrum and everyone who is depressed has access to the same support network.

 

[farnham]

just because i dont believe in life after death doesnt mean im egocentric.

never said that.

like i said before, all life should be is a pursuit of happiness for yourself and others. ideally, if youre a good soul, then the latter should lead to the former. the act of killing yourself is counter-productive to both of these goals. so in my eye's while it may be the last thing the person ever did, it's still very morally wrong in most cases.

well that as well is belief. the reality is that a LOT of people are egoistic. even if they are making others happy they dont make others happy for the sake of it but because they know that there is a return. you could call it long term egoism in contrary to short term egoism (showing others that you only care about yourself and making everybody hate you in a long term)

so if you are following this kind of reasoning suicide is not counterproductive for the one commiting suicid because he wants to die and simply doesnt care about the others and doesnt even have to fear the consequences of his egoistic behavior.

it's still very morally wrong in most cases.

Maybe. but if someone commits suicide i believe they will not care about morality since he wont have to fear any consequences, outside of his death or maybe a failed suicide attempt, unless he believes in it himself.

 

[-COOLIO-]

well that as well is belief. the reality is that a LOT of people are egoistic. even if they are making others happy they dont make others happy for the sake of it but because they know that there is a return. you could call it long term egoism in contrary to short term egoism (showing others that you only care about yourself and making everybody hate you in a long term)

so if you are following this kind of reasoning suicide is not counterproductive for the one commiting suicid because he wants to die and simply doesnt care about the others and doesnt even have to fear the consequences of his egoistic behavior.

i dont follow that kind of reasoning, it might be right by them, but not by me, hence me ridiculing most people who would commit suicide. they may not have to face the consequences but it's still wrong. much like the actions of a suicide bomber are wrong even though they dont have to face the consequences.

Spoiler

before someone says something stupid. YES SUICIDE BOMBING IS WORST THAN SUICIDE

Maybe. but if someone commits suicide i believe they will not care about morality since he wont have to fear any consequences, outside of his death or maybe a failed suicide attempt, unless he believes in it himself.

he wont care about morality but it's still wrong, i will still, most likely, think of them as an asshole.

 

[farnham]

much like the actions of a suicide bomber are wrong even though they dont have to face the consequences.

i wasnt making a judgement about suicide. i believe it is wrong. but as a person that is not directly affiliated with this person i believe i dont have any grounds to blame him since he has done me no wrong.

now the fans of him or his familiy have all the right to blame him since he basically abandoned them. but as im neither fan nor family (and i believe its the same with you) im saying that we are not in the position to make judgements.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I'm glad depression doesn't run on a spectrum and everyone who is depressed has access to the same support network.

everything runs on a spectrum.

im actually glad that people are making a real effort in this thread to defend suicide from an empathetic standpoint because it might lead to the same people developing a deeper sense of empathy for any kind of wrong doer. which really is a good thing.

when we read about 'so called' heinous acts. we should realize that their behaviour is due to environmental and genetic factors stemming from their birth.

if you realize this, and you would extend this same courtesy to people beyond suicide victims then we actually see pretty eye to eye. it'd make you a determinist i believe.

i used words like heinous earlier in this thread, but i thought i was talking to people who had internalized the idea of moral choices. maybe i wasnt?

 

[EatChildren]

and you've proven that you do?

Yes. You've made it very clear you have no grasp on the concept of mental sickness, the various levels of depression, and the conscious drive and willpower required for someone to completely erase themselves from existence.

I could be wrong, but I'm also going to assume you've never had to deal with somebody who is clinically depressed, or suicidal, or even come close to doing so. Its really no surprise then that you're so ignorant about the topic, but maybe you could make the effort to do some research next time before mouthing off.

 

[-COOLIO-]

i wasnt making a judgement about suicide. i believe it is wrong. but as a person that is not directly affiliated with this person i believe i dont have any grounds to blame him since he has done me no wrong.

now the fans of him or his familiy have all the right to blame him since he basically abandoned them. but as im neither fan nor family (and i believe its the same with you) im saying that we are not in the position to make judgements.

so suicide bomber who doesnt kill anyone you know hasnt done any wrong by you?

 

[InfiniteNine]

This thread is so terrible I think I'm going to commit suicide!

 

[-COOLIO-]

Yes. You've made it very clear you have no grasp on the concept of mental sickness, the various levels of depression, and the conscious drive and willpower required for someone to completely erase themselves from existence.

I could be wrong, but I'm also going to assume you've never had to deal with somebody who is clinically depressed, or suicidal, or even come close to doing so. Its really no surprise then that you're so ignorant about the topic, but maybe you could make the effort to do some research next time before mouthing off.

so you've proven that you do have a background in mental depression in this thread so far? where?

that's what i meant by 'and youve proven that you do'.

 

[farnham]

so suicide bomber who doesnt kill anyone you know hasnt done any wrong by you?

well suicide bomber has commited multiple crimes including murder (or manslaughter)

someone commiting suicide has not commited any crimes that the state sanctiones. at least in most of the countries around the globe including south korea (which is the jurisdiction in which the suicide took place)

so yeah as a positivist i cant blame anyone that hasnt commited a state sanctioned crime.

 

[Srsly]

everything runs on a spectrum.

im actually glad that people are making a real effort in this thread to defend suicide from an empathetic standpoint because it might lead to the same people developing a deeper sense of empathy for any kind of wrong doer. which really is a good thing.

when we read about 'so called' heinous acts. we should realize that their behaviour is due to environmental and genetic factors stemming from their birth.

if you realize this, and you would extend this same courtesy to people beyond suicide victims then we actually see pretty eye to eye. it'd make you a determinist i believe.

i used words like heinous earlier in this thread, but i thought i was talking to people who had internalized the idea of moral choices. maybe i wasnt?

I would consider myself a determinist, but I'm not ready to make that assumption yet as it is still one of the biggest mysteries in science. I do, however, understand the role of genetics and environment, which is why I try not to judge people who commit terrible acts -- although I also understand the need to keep society safe and to try and deter future acts that would harm others.

 

[EatChildren]

so you've proven that you do have a background in mental depression in this thread so far? where?

that's what i meant by 'and youve proven that you do'.

Two years of psychology and first hand experience dealing with my clinically depressed and suicidal younger sister, including speaking to and learning from therapists, doctors, and counselors.

No, I did not specify, but there it is.

 

[norinrad]

May he RIP

 

[BocoDragon]

well suicide bomber has commited multiple crimes including murder (or manslaughter)

someone commiting suicide has not commited any crimes that the state sanctiones. at least in most of the countries around the globe including south korea (which is the jurisdiction in which the suicide took place)

so yeah as a positivist i cant blame anyone that hasnt commited a state sanctioned crime.

I was under the impression that suicide is a crime in most countries. I'm not sure about that, though.

 

[Takuan]

There's been a relatively high rate of Korean actor/actress suicides of late, hasn't there?

 

[farnham]

I was under the impression that suicide is a crime in most countries. I'm not sure about that, though.

its not

 

[-COOLIO-]

I would consider myself a determinist, but I'm not ready to make that assumption yet as it is still one of the biggest mysteries in science. I do, however, understand the role of genetics and environment, which is why I try not to judge people who commit terrible acts -- although I also understand the need to keep society safe and to try and deter future acts that would harm others.

fair enough then.

Two years of psychology and first hand experience dealing with my clinically depressed and suicidal younger sister, including speaking to and learning from therapists, doctors, and counselors.

No, I did not specify, but there it is.

alright one year of psych here.

anyway, i totally get that people who've dealt with suicide personally would be offended by my stance, and im sorry if ive done so.

but unless you learned from professionals, that most suicide cases are entirely unpreventable and that none of them could have been held responsible for their actions (btw, that's not what i learned in my first year of psych but if you've learned otherwise then maybe what ive learned is reasonably questionable), then i still feel alright in arguing the moral validity of it. simply put, suicide is a very bad thing to me, and if there is a chance to fight it, then ill expect more of the would be victim. even if it's very hard.

 

[farnham]

There's been a relatively high rate of Korean actor/actress suicides of late, hasn't there?

i believe the country itself has a relatively high suicide rate

 

[BocoDragon]

i believe the country itself has a relatively high suicide rate

Yup.

That's the cost of being an ultra-success driven nation.. Everything is just so damn serious... The slightest hint of personal failure and you're compelled to think your life is no longer worth living at all.

To be honest, I love Korea, but most of the Korean immigrants to Canada eventually tell me the same story: they wanted to escape all of that high pressure. (of course, they still think Korea is number 1 BEST)

 

[Takuan]

i believe the country itself has a relatively high suicide rate

Not surprising. Lotta pent-up urges in that society. Seoul is an incredibly superficial city, and unless you're already rich there really isn't much to aspire to besides getting surgery and becoming some kind of celeb, unless living the life of a company man/housewife is your personal dream.

@Boco I hear ya. For girls especially, everything in that culture is geared toward getting them a successful husband, as though that's the absolute pinnacle of achievement. There's no such thing as female empowerment there.

 

[Dresden]

Korea and Japan are just forerunners in that regard. Casual disregard for one's life coupled with crushing depression resulting in mass suicides is going to hit the first world nations in waves.

 

[EatChildren]

but unless you learned from professionals, that most suicide cases are entirely unpreventable and that none of them could have been held responsible for their actions, then i still feel alright in arguing the moral validity of it.

Its not about whether or not they're unpreventable, or who is held responsible. Its about the conditions required for somebody to consider, and then act upon, the taking of their own life. Morality is a very silly thing to bring up as morality is totally subjective.

Its no question that someone who takes their own life severely damages the lives of those they had relationships with. At its root, suicide is a completely selfish act that, if you're someone who does not believe in the afterlife, arguable does more damage to those left alive than the person who took their life, as those alive are forced to deal with the consiquences.

But none of this really tackles the concept of suicide, specifically taking your own life in a completely willing way. Human beings are, for most part, hard wired to preserve our lives. Simply by living we avoid dying. Even those who are wreckless, for example those living very self destructive lifestyles, still believe they will wake up the next morning alive. Their ignorance may cause them to endager their own life, but its their ignorance that makes them believe they'll live.

For someone suicidal, the 'ignorance' is a whole reality. There's no wrecklessness to suicide, because it is seen as a viable option, and in many cases the only option. For someone to even consider taking their own life for no other reason than to take their own life, its something a vast majority of the human race will never, ever experience.

If we are hard wired to preserve our life, then how do we judge someone so willing to take their own life? Mentally, they're basically broken.

Suicide is so often a sudden and unexpected event that we forget that suicidal thoughts rarely happen, and are acted on, instantly. Years and years of depression, often planning suicides but not acting upon them, and then finally doing themselves in, without anybody ever knowing something was wrong.

In the case of this actor, the damage his suicide has caused should not be ignored, but his suicide should not dismissed as anything other than a tragedy, if not for what he did to himself, but for the reminder that mental illness and suicide is an extremely serious yet often ignored and missunderstood disorder that afflicts our species.

 

[Stahsky]

This thread is so terrible I think I'm going to commit suicide!

Easily the most shocking post in this thread.


Where is your old avatar? This shit don't fly with me.

 

[speedpop]

It's amazing, the amount of people who still blame mental illnesses on the victims. Amazing, and very indicative of just how far we haven't come as a society.

True words have never been spoken with more justice.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Its not about whether or not they're unpreventable, or who is held responsible. Its about the conditions required for somebody to consider, and then act upon, the taking of their own life. Morality is a very silly thing to bring up as morality is totally subjective.

Its no question that someone who takes their own life severely damages the lives of those they had relationships with. At its root, suicide is a completely selfish act that, if you're someone who does not believe in the afterlife, arguable does more damage to those left alive than the person who took their life, as those alive are forced to deal with the consiquences.

But none of this really tackles the concept of suicide, specifically taking your own life in a completely willing way. Human beings are, for most part, hard wired to preserve our lives. Simply by living we avoid dying. Even those who are wreckless, for example those living very self destructive lifestyles, still believe they will wake up the next morning alive. Their ignorance may cause them to endager their own life, but its their ignorance that makes them believe they'll live.

For someone suicidal, the 'ignorance' is a whole reality. There's no wrecklessness to suicide, because it is seen as a viable option, and in many cases the only option. For someone to even consider taking their own life for no other reason than to take their own life, its something a vast majority of the human race will never, ever experience.

If we are hard wired to preserve our life, then how do we judge someone so willing to take their own life? Mentally, they're basically broken.

Suicide is so often a sudden and unexpected event that we forget that suicidal thoughts rarely happen, and are acted on, instantly. Years and years of depression, often planning suicides but not acting upon them, and then finally doing themselves in, without anybody ever knowing something was wrong.

In the case of this actor, the damage his suicide has caused should not be ignored, but his suicide should not dismissed as anything other than a tragedy, if not for what he did to himself, but for the reminder that mental illness and suicide is an extremely serious yet often ignored and missunderstood disorder that afflicts our species.

morality is subjective, but im focusing on my own rules of morality. someone who wishes to take their life and cannot comprehend the consequences is broken, and we cant blame them. if they can comprehend the consequences, but cant use that to override their desire to free themselves from torment that in my definition of morality, that's wrong. people do 'broken' things that override their reproductive instincts all the time, but that's only because the human brain is a very complex thing. suicide to escape pain is something that i think most of us can understand.

 

[ampere]

It's amazing, the amount of people who still blame mental illnesses on the victims. Amazing, and very indicative of just how far we haven't come as a society.

Shit gets so complicated sometimes, a person can grow up with mental issues simply by attending a school or growing up in an area that doesn't account for the way they think. People who aren't negatively impacted have little reason to see anything wrong with the status quo. As you said it's amazing how far we've come, and yet how far we haven't.

remember, im a determinist, i feel that everything is just the result of variables set at the big bang.

Man... I really want to be nice but you clearly have no understanding of determinism. By being a determinist you would have to recognize the victims of suicide as individuals following their pre-determined path with no choice.

If you believe in choice, you aren't a determinist. So stop saying you are, you're just being a prick. You could be called a 'compatibilist' but that philosophy is so full of holes, what are you even trying to say anyway? Your argument is 'fuck people who commit suicide, they suck' and 'everything is predetermined'.

 

[EatChildren]

morality is subjective, but im focusing on my own rules of morality. someone who wishes to take their life and cannot comprehend the consequences is broken, and we cant blame them. if they can comprehend the consequences, but cant use that to override their desire to free themselves from torment that in my definition of morality, that's wrong. people do 'broken' things that override their reproductive instincts all the time, but that's only because the human brain is a very complex thing. suicide to escape pain is something that i think most of us can understand.

The bolded is exactly what is broken.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Man... I really want to be nice but you clearly have no understanding of determinism. By being a determinist you would have to recognize the victims of suicide as individuals following their pre-determined path with no choice.

If you believe in choice, you aren't a determinist. So stop saying you are, you're just being a prick. You could be called a 'compatibilist' but that philosophy is so full of holes, what are you even trying to say anyway? Your argument is 'fuck people who commit suicide, they suck' and 'everything is predetermined'.

yeah i have a weird outlook, i described it earlier. scroll up.

if youre too lazy, basically i subscribe to: everyone has a predetermined path, but some paths are good, some are bad, and i describe them as such.

 

[-COOLIO-]

The bolded is exactly what is broken.

broken to you, morally bad behaviour to me (in most cases).

 

[EatChildren]

broken to you, morally bad behaviour to me (in most cases).

But I told you that morality is subjective. The morality of somebody suicidal is different to your morality. Who is right and who is wrong is not the point, instead that they no longer see, and often are not immediately capable of seeing, from the same moral perspective as yourself.

You're asking people who's perspective you've never seen from to see from your own. How you look upon their actions and thier mindset makes no difference to the mindset they're actually in.

 

[Kadey]

Pretend you are the father. Wouldn't you feel even more guilt and succumb to the disease because your son committed suicide because of you?

My father has cancer also. The last thing on my mind or anybody, is suicide. We're there for him for whatever he needs, whether it be medical, emotional, etc. Suicide ruins more lives than just the person having done it.

The thing is, the combination of finding it early with proper treatment is actually keeping his health stable. He's more active than 99% of the people his age. It's almost like he doesn't even have it at all.

Another thing is, he also has diabetes. That's more likely to kill him than the cancer he has.

 

[-COOLIO-]

But I told you that morality is subjective. The morality of somebody suicidal is different to your morality. Who is right and who is wrong is not the point, instead that they no longer see, and often are not immediately capable of seeing, from the same moral perspective as yourself.

You're asking people who's perspective you've never seen from to see from your own. How you look upon their actions and thier mindset makes no difference to the mindset they're actually in.

in most cases i dont think it's significantly different. i think they often know that what theyre doing is wrong. im pretty sure thoughts of actor's father came to this mind before he killed himself. i think he knew that father would be saddened

 

[EatChildren]

in most cases i dont think it's significantly different. i think they often know that what theyre doing is wrong. im pretty sure thoughts of actor's father came to this mind before he killed himself

The morality of killing themselves versus the pain it will cause on others is different to that of somebody with a healthy mind. Hence why they do it.

 

[WanderingWind]

There is nothing more to say to somebody who does not believe in mental illness. It's like trying to convince a super-ignorant fundamentalist that dinosaurs actually existed.

 

[-COOLIO-]

The morality of killing themselves versus the pain it will cause on others is different to that of somebody with a healthy mind. Hence why they do it.

i think this is why we wont reach an agreement here:

you feel that the mind of someone who's committed suicide cannot be understood by people who are not on the verge of suicide themselves.

i feel these people do not differ from us so much that they are unaware of the consequences of their actions.