Castor Krieg
Banned
I played both D3 and T2 demo, and I do not see T2 doing anything substantially better. I can bitch about RMAH or always-online req. but when it comes to mechanics I do not see T2 doing things better.
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Kotaku: Diablo III vs. Torchlight II
- Thread starter sazzy
- Start date
ShineALight
Member
I'm aware that the accepted narrative is Diablo 3 fucking sucks and TL2 is finally here to save us, but I've spent substantial time with both games (of course more with D3 since it's been out longer) and it's not really that cut and dry. I admit to not being the highest-level player of either game, I often piggyback on the theorycrafting of others, but I've been a longtime player of the genre and I feel qualified to speak about how it feels to actually play the games.
There are several things that TL2 absolutely does better just in terms of mechanics. Followers in D3 feel archaic and useless in comparison to pets, for one. That's easily one of TL2's greatest strengths and I'd understand if someone identified that as it's single greatest contribution to the genre (fishing is great too in the way that it more or less directly ties into that). I haven't experienced enough of TL2's end-game to speak from an informed perspective but the NG+ system and maps seems like a massive improvement over running the same campaign four times in a row and then farming Act 3 inferno ad infinitum.
There are also things that Diablo 3 does well, and some of these come too late for a lot of people that already feel burned by the game. I play Monk and I find the class more synergistic than either Engineer or Embermage. Yeah, it's a valid complaint that there's basically one viable build for Monk (and most classes) with the option to swap out this skill or that skill, but the combat is (more) engaging and the steps they've made and continue to make in balancing Inferno and enabling more builds is good, and I have faith in its progression along those lines.
A lot of people are very excited about distributing stat points and skill points in TL2 but it currently doesn't enable much experimentation. I got to level 32 with an Embermage and realized I'd devised a fucked build and had the option of starting over or altering my character via the console and flagging myself if I try to play online. I honestly prefer D3's method of respecing on the fly in terms of skills, though TL2's stat point system (they're all useful on some level for every class!) is better, but you're still left following a 3/1/0/1 or whatever distribution model for much of the game to build the best character. A month from now we'll have it down to a science for every build and it'll be a mechanical thing we do.
I'd like to comment on loot and itemization but until I spend more time in the endgame of TL2 I really can't. I know that I, along with a lot of other players, enjoy the dopamine rush of finding uniques at a brisk pace in TL2. A lot of those uniques are useless to me. In D3 and TL2 both I have a stash full of shit uniques. There's more insight to be had there but at the end of the day, that's my reality, shit uniques all over the place. TL2's loot shines outside of frequent unique drops though, you can put together a good set early on, find a really good rare, whatever, moreso than in D3, absolutely. And my shit uniques in D3 are endgame, while more level 30ish in TL2 so I'm going to give it to TL2 on that one.
The AH has been detrimental to drops and balance in D3 but, again, decreasingly so after the last few patches, and loot in 1.05 (and I'm sure onward) continues to be tweaked and improved in D3 and the idea of a necessary reliance on the AH to gear yourself for Inferno is almost total myth at this point. It's so much easier in terms of difficulty and items and drops are being tuned to make it easier to the point where, RNG gods willing, you could probably farm your own decent gear in a completely reasonable amount of time. The interaction of NV, Paragon leveling and MF (and soon Monster Power) is something I enjoy. It's a unique network of systems that, with some additional polish, will give D3 a unique identity.
I know I've spoken a bit about good faith for D3 here but that's just because there have been some huge steps in terms of balancing the game in the last few patches, and I should give TL2 it's credit here in that, you know, it's progression isn't an issue. It's not a thought, it's going to be fun as fuck with the mods it gets. It's going to get mods that make the interface better, introduce fun to play new classes, new uniques, whatever. And I'm sure it's going to get some great content in patches as well.
Anyway, just my two cents. The future is bright for both games. They do a lot of things differently, they have a lot in common, I'm going to continue to play both. Sorry for rambling quite a bit there, I've just been weighing both games against each other in my mind and as a fan of both felt compelled to give my opinion.
There are several things that TL2 absolutely does better just in terms of mechanics. Followers in D3 feel archaic and useless in comparison to pets, for one. That's easily one of TL2's greatest strengths and I'd understand if someone identified that as it's single greatest contribution to the genre (fishing is great too in the way that it more or less directly ties into that). I haven't experienced enough of TL2's end-game to speak from an informed perspective but the NG+ system and maps seems like a massive improvement over running the same campaign four times in a row and then farming Act 3 inferno ad infinitum.
There are also things that Diablo 3 does well, and some of these come too late for a lot of people that already feel burned by the game. I play Monk and I find the class more synergistic than either Engineer or Embermage. Yeah, it's a valid complaint that there's basically one viable build for Monk (and most classes) with the option to swap out this skill or that skill, but the combat is (more) engaging and the steps they've made and continue to make in balancing Inferno and enabling more builds is good, and I have faith in its progression along those lines.
A lot of people are very excited about distributing stat points and skill points in TL2 but it currently doesn't enable much experimentation. I got to level 32 with an Embermage and realized I'd devised a fucked build and had the option of starting over or altering my character via the console and flagging myself if I try to play online. I honestly prefer D3's method of respecing on the fly in terms of skills, though TL2's stat point system (they're all useful on some level for every class!) is better, but you're still left following a 3/1/0/1 or whatever distribution model for much of the game to build the best character. A month from now we'll have it down to a science for every build and it'll be a mechanical thing we do.
I'd like to comment on loot and itemization but until I spend more time in the endgame of TL2 I really can't. I know that I, along with a lot of other players, enjoy the dopamine rush of finding uniques at a brisk pace in TL2. A lot of those uniques are useless to me. In D3 and TL2 both I have a stash full of shit uniques. There's more insight to be had there but at the end of the day, that's my reality, shit uniques all over the place. TL2's loot shines outside of frequent unique drops though, you can put together a good set early on, find a really good rare, whatever, moreso than in D3, absolutely. And my shit uniques in D3 are endgame, while more level 30ish in TL2 so I'm going to give it to TL2 on that one.
The AH has been detrimental to drops and balance in D3 but, again, decreasingly so after the last few patches, and loot in 1.05 (and I'm sure onward) continues to be tweaked and improved in D3 and the idea of a necessary reliance on the AH to gear yourself for Inferno is almost total myth at this point. It's so much easier in terms of difficulty and items and drops are being tuned to make it easier to the point where, RNG gods willing, you could probably farm your own decent gear in a completely reasonable amount of time. The interaction of NV, Paragon leveling and MF (and soon Monster Power) is something I enjoy. It's a unique network of systems that, with some additional polish, will give D3 a unique identity.
I know I've spoken a bit about good faith for D3 here but that's just because there have been some huge steps in terms of balancing the game in the last few patches, and I should give TL2 it's credit here in that, you know, it's progression isn't an issue. It's not a thought, it's going to be fun as fuck with the mods it gets. It's going to get mods that make the interface better, introduce fun to play new classes, new uniques, whatever. And I'm sure it's going to get some great content in patches as well.
Anyway, just my two cents. The future is bright for both games. They do a lot of things differently, they have a lot in common, I'm going to continue to play both. Sorry for rambling quite a bit there, I've just been weighing both games against each other in my mind and as a fan of both felt compelled to give my opinion.
TL2 looks like a jumbled mess compared to D3, whether you like the style or not. They really nailed clarity and good visibility in D3, I started to appreciate it much more after playing TL2.
Angry Puppy
Member
agreed.
While blizzard has fallen from their throne of quality content, one of the things they still have is the polish of the games and tight controls.
I'm saying these with 140 hours (mid Act 3 inferno) in D3 and barely six hours of TL2.
Your interaction with the gameworld in D3 is clearly superior to TL2. Everything from the way you move through it, to hitting enemies, to casting spells, to opening chests. It has weight. The world feels solid. There's something vague and floaty about how you do stuff in TL2.
Your placement in the gameworld is superior in D3 too. In all these hours I've played it I never felt 'lost' in the fight. Not once. Something that is not uncommon in TL2. I often 'lose' my character especially while in melee.
TL2 has a much better implementation of random dungeons than D3. D3 made the mistake of making the random blocks dungeons consist of too large. They are technically different each time but they really aren't. At least to the degree TL2's dungeons are. I've tested this and they are radically different.
D3's biggest liability was fucking up the loot table in order to accomodate the AH. But that is something that's only glaringly obvious very late in the game. TL2's loot has so far not felt drastically different but I can't say for sure until I have reached the endgame in that too.
Character progression doesn't matter either way. Stat points are worthless anyway so only skill points differentiate these games. And these can be respecced in TL2 so that's out of play either way. It's a matter of taste in the end. Do you like the D3 tiered unlock very broad system or TL2's "spend 1 skill point for 2% more damage" more traditional and focused one? I can't see how this can come down to anything other than taste.
My preliminary conclusion is that D3 has the edge, mostly because of the better combat. Which is what you'll mostly be doing in an ARPG. But it's a slight one because TL2 has better combat than every other ARPG in the market. It's not a Diablo killer but it doesn't have to be.
Your interaction with the gameworld in D3 is clearly superior to TL2. Everything from the way you move through it, to hitting enemies, to casting spells, to opening chests. It has weight. The world feels solid. There's something vague and floaty about how you do stuff in TL2.
Your placement in the gameworld is superior in D3 too. In all these hours I've played it I never felt 'lost' in the fight. Not once. Something that is not uncommon in TL2. I often 'lose' my character especially while in melee.
TL2 has a much better implementation of random dungeons than D3. D3 made the mistake of making the random blocks dungeons consist of too large. They are technically different each time but they really aren't. At least to the degree TL2's dungeons are. I've tested this and they are radically different.
D3's biggest liability was fucking up the loot table in order to accomodate the AH. But that is something that's only glaringly obvious very late in the game. TL2's loot has so far not felt drastically different but I can't say for sure until I have reached the endgame in that too.
Character progression doesn't matter either way. Stat points are worthless anyway so only skill points differentiate these games. And these can be respecced in TL2 so that's out of play either way. It's a matter of taste in the end. Do you like the D3 tiered unlock very broad system or TL2's "spend 1 skill point for 2% more damage" more traditional and focused one? I can't see how this can come down to anything other than taste.
My preliminary conclusion is that D3 has the edge, mostly because of the better combat. Which is what you'll mostly be doing in an ARPG. But it's a slight one because TL2 has better combat than every other ARPG in the market. It's not a Diablo killer but it doesn't have to be.
My opinion that I wrote in the TL2 thread a week ago. Note, I never got to 50 hours, only got to 28 hours and barely into new game plus.
Well, another thing Kotaku was wrong about.
TL2 is good, has some cool mechanics, but Diablo III is just superior in most ways. I like what they did with the pets, and the fact that the map is completely random. The loot in the game is better than D3's was at release, but Blizzard has since fixed that.
The biggest difference is just the polish/online. Diablo III looks and plays way better. Much better online support, TL2 needed a closed online system, there's no longevity without one.
TL2 is good, has some cool mechanics, but Diablo III is just superior in most ways. I like what they did with the pets, and the fact that the map is completely random. The loot in the game is better than D3's was at release, but Blizzard has since fixed that.
The biggest difference is just the polish/online. Diablo III looks and plays way better. Much better online support, TL2 needed a closed online system, there's no longevity without one.
IlludiumQ36
Member
I could accept just about any fanboy defense of D3 prevoiusly offered in this thread - things like...better graphics, better skill sets, better physics, combat, pacing, etc., etc. In any one of these, there is underlying merit - objective data to support subjective conclusions. But this statement is blatantly asinine. If you think that adding a few new affixes to some of the legendary items FIXES D3's awful itemization, then you are beyond hope for any kind of rational discussion.
Littlegator
Banned
I dunno, I enjoyed D3. Just not as much as I expected.
If I were to play either in the long term, it would definitely be the one that makes me money.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
the combat of Diablo 3 (and art style) + everything else from torchlight = Diablo 3 we should have gotten.
It sucks we didn't get a Blizzard North Diablo 3, now we have to play 3-4 different arpgs to get the full fix in.
The fact that Diablo 3 didn't set the world on fire on all 3 metrics (money, word of mouth, and critical response), means it failed to me. That may seem to have way to high of expectations, but when it comes to Blizzard/Valve that is what is expected.
Dreams-Visions
Member
LAWL.
often boring aesthetic, choppy visuals, ugly animations, high CPU/GPU burden.
"polished" is not the word I'd use to describe D3.
I'm enjoying the fast pace, location variety and convenience systems of Torchlight II but prefer the minute to minute gameplay, skills, health system and polish of Diablo III. Both scratch that Action RPG itch for me despite any flaws, plenty of loot to obsess over between the two. Looking forward to the mod scene taking off for TL2 as well.
All in all it's basically a draw for me if I had to pit them up against each other, but I'd give the edge to Diablo III since I pretty much ignore the AH anyways.
All in all it's basically a draw for me if I had to pit them up against each other, but I'd give the edge to Diablo III since I pretty much ignore the AH anyways.
I play games to have fun, not make money. I don't even see how it can be called a positive considering that very point hinges on the existence of the RMAH which has led to nothing but negatives when it comes to actual gameplay.
Who said I don't play the game for fun as well? A lot of my friends play Diablo 3 and my best items drops are when playing co-op with buddies. We converse about skill trees, our latest legendary drops, deals on the auction house and share gear that will improve our characters as well. When we get new gear we show it off and the real money auction is a huge bonus for end-game players.
There's pros and cons with both games, but TL2 gets my vote. I -want- to keep playing it. There's no way I can go back to D3 and stomach 60 levels of bad loot. There's no reward in that for me. But TL2, I'm actually looking forward to rerolling or playing another class. Because I'm rewarded for doing so. Leveling up isn't a slog.
The prospect of winning big in D3 and cashing out for real money is enticing, but that's not a valid argument when judging a games quality. And it would mean I'd have to play it. That's not going to happen, because there's just better loot games out there.
The prospect of winning big in D3 and cashing out for real money is enticing, but that's not a valid argument when judging a games quality. And it would mean I'd have to play it. That's not going to happen, because there's just better loot games out there.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this but I prefer how T2 plays solely due to to the terrible hit detection in D3, nothing in T2's combat has annoyed me anywhere near that level. The only things I think D3 clearly does better is the ability to respec and how it clearly displays what damage your skills do.
Wickerbasket
Member
You could probably have made more money per hour being at your real job.
In fact, I'd probably rather be at work than be forced to play more of Diablo 3.
Each to their own though.
I would love that. I would not need skill forests, simply because if they are able to make THAT balanced, they could just as easily balance D3's skill system as well - but other than that, it would be a perfect game to steal so many hours of our lives...
Now that would be great.
Path Of Exile's greatest ideas were the skill gems and the potions. The skill system is just a new way to represent the "+2% to attack speed" trope. Other than that you're correct.
Catchafire2000
Member
Let's all take a breather and take a step back. The RUNIC team released both Torchlight 1 and Torchlight 2 with less man power and time Blizzard used to create Diablo 3. The hype machine that went into Diablo 3 was astronomical and ever since it was announced in August of 2008!!! it held my attention. With the time they took to release Diablo 3, I expected a lot more but instead was offered a lot less. Yes, D3 looks better, Yess D3 has better gaming mechanics, but am I really happy with the game? Sure, for a single play through! D3 has:
-No randomization
-No customization of skills
-An Auction House
Those three aspects alone make me not want to play D3 on a regular basis because there's really no reason to. Why should I ever want to reroll a character? Why do I need to loot grind when I can the best on the AH? Why do I need to play the same non-randomized map over and over again?
Is D3 the superior game? In all honesty, it is... But only if you want to play the game a few times because there's no sense of exploration.
TL2 was made by a smaller team, in less time, for a 1/3 the price of D3. I'm not going to lose any sleep over a $20 game. I know what to expect at that price point. The combat is clunky at times and there's so much crap on the screen that I get fits... But, the fact that my character is unique and I have more freedom means a lot!!!
Not to mention, the modding community is going to add a lot of longevity to this game.
TL;DR: TL2 is $20... for us to compare it to a "powerhouse" game like D3 means that they did a good enough job worthy of comparing.
-No randomization
-No customization of skills
-An Auction House
Those three aspects alone make me not want to play D3 on a regular basis because there's really no reason to. Why should I ever want to reroll a character? Why do I need to loot grind when I can the best on the AH? Why do I need to play the same non-randomized map over and over again?
Is D3 the superior game? In all honesty, it is... But only if you want to play the game a few times because there's no sense of exploration.
TL2 was made by a smaller team, in less time, for a 1/3 the price of D3. I'm not going to lose any sleep over a $20 game. I know what to expect at that price point. The combat is clunky at times and there's so much crap on the screen that I get fits... But, the fact that my character is unique and I have more freedom means a lot!!!
Not to mention, the modding community is going to add a lot of longevity to this game.
TL;DR: TL2 is $20... for us to compare it to a "powerhouse" game like D3 means that they did a good enough job worthy of comparing.
ihearthawthats
Banned
while i found tl2 less boring than tl1, i still found it boring. the "freedom" of skill points and a skill tree is an illusion.
forgeforsaken
Member
Loot is way better and more diverse in T2 IMO.
The skill system is much more than that. It is all passive abilities such as boosts to mana, hp, dex, dual wielding etc, but because all classes share the same huge tree, it means you can roll a class but build it in a completely different way to the norm because you have access to (almost) everything. For example:
Here's a caster that's been built to melee
Here's a bow wielding Templar
Here's a melee using a wand
It's because of the skill tree that you can make such unusual builds. The skill system is much more than just a +2 trope.
I don't see how TL2's itemization is any better than D3's. Just because they throw uniques at you every corner you turn?
b..b...b.uut it's their unique art style!!
I don't know if it's funny or sad that Dota 2 has better graphics both technically and artistically in such a short amount of time compared to D3
PetriP-TNT
Member
It's pretty mindblowing that Blizzard, the king of PC video games, could have created such a POS called Diablo 3 that challenges Barbie Horse Riding in it's badness. I bet some interns did it in two days LOL!
diffusionx
Gold Member
I never liked Diablo 2 all that much. I don't like skill points, I don't like making a character and then finding out they are underpowered because I didn't do enough math early on ( was doing and am still doing enough math in my real life). When I returned to Diablo 2 years later I just read about the best builds online and did that (and still didn't really dig it).
I like Diablo 3 much more because it's not that. I like trying out Grenades, seeing and feeling how horrible it is, then going back to something else right away.
Thing is, if you really dig D2, I can see why you'd hate D3. It's a very different game. TL2 is a better fit and there's nothing wrong with that.
I like Diablo 3 much more because it's not that. I like trying out Grenades, seeing and feeling how horrible it is, then going back to something else right away.
Thing is, if you really dig D2, I can see why you'd hate D3. It's a very different game. TL2 is a better fit and there's nothing wrong with that.
Catchafire2000
Member
Seriously, we expect way too much from Blizzard and they in turn believe that anything they create is the best thing since sliced bread.
D3 is a great game... but why should I feel the need to play the same non-randomized game day after day? If D3 didn't have the Diablo name in, would we even classify it as an ARPG?
If D3 kept true to the mechanics of D2, it would be amazing.
D3 is a great game... but why should I feel the need to play the same non-randomized game day after day? If D3 didn't have the Diablo name in, would we even classify it as an ARPG?
If D3 kept true to the mechanics of D2, it would be amazing.
I love posts like this just shows how bad they can be. Diablo 3 is certainly not a POS.
1) Set items drop. Legendary items drop. There's no auction house in place that makes good items rarer than hens teeth
2) When you loot a unique, its actually an upgrade
3) This happens at all levels of the game, not just at the end
4) Evolving weapons
5) Gambling, aumenting, gems
6) Opening chests, smashing pots and looting weapon racks is worth doing
The fact that a $20 game can even compare to a $60 game in the first place should be an embarrassment in and of itself. When the $20 game goes so far as to blow the $60 one out of the water, you know there's a problem. TL2 does many things right that D3 does not, it's even more ridiculous when you look at the time in development and money behind the respective products. Blizzard is an embarrassment, that's really all there is to it.
diablo3hitboxes.jpg
This. I'm glad you beat me to the punch. The absolute worst aspect of Diablo 3 is the boring and uninspired loot. They made some legendaries better, but the majority of the items are still bland.
In a game for loot whores, it's inexcusable what Blizzard has done with the loot.
Sye d'Burns
Member
I've played Torchlight II on a laptop far from an internet connection. Can Diablo III offer that?
I think most see a game as something to do for entertainment and not as some sort of work at home opportunity.
Was Diablo 3 your first Diablo game?
Blizzard probably could've bought Runic, finished TL2, and renamed it to D3 for less money and time than it took to actually make D3.
It in Diablo 3 boil down to: primary stat, vitality, resistances 95% of the time. Add in crit for a few classes that want to go for that. It doesn't really matter what build you go for, you go for the same stats regardless. Items are incredibly boring as a result. When you find an upgrade, it's not exciting, because all you're doing is increasing your base stats by a minute amount.
Torchlight 2 has a lot more interesting mods and weapon types that actually impact how you'll want to play your character.
forgeforsaken
Member
The types of stats you can get on gear make a big difference. Diablo 3 has very few items with interesting modifiers.
Honestly I'm not sure how you end up with a product like D3 after 12 years in development, and who knows how many tens of millions spent along the way. It's baffling.
Forsaken82
Member
Because it wasn't in development for 12 years...
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Which is obvious because it didn't even play like it was in development for 1 year.
Yeah, and if they had done it that would have been even a bigger shitstorm than D3 was.
TL2 is held to a far lower standard becasue it doesn't have Blizzard's name on it. They basically released a worse Diablo II with only Open Battle.net (and honestly, open battle.net had way more features than TL2's online).
No. I played D2 most of the way through (primarily from 1.07-1.11).
Diablo III's main issue when compared to II, is that II had more variety and more ways to take up your time. The biggest problem with the auction house isn't the fact that you can pay to win, or that item drop rates are impacted, it's that it eliminated trading. Trading took up plenty of time, it was fun searching for the best deal (whether it be going into games, posting on forums, etc.), Diablo III added the AH but didn't do anything to fill the void left in regards to the time used for trading.
There's also the issue of variety. D2 you could do plenty of things to get items/currency. Rush for forge, countess runs, pit, pindle, meph....they were all different and there were different reasons to do them (ie. Forge was the best odds of a HR, pit/pindle could drop anything but had a low shot, meph was probably the best chance at a mid-range unique/set...). D3 currently has a couple routes but the reasons to do them are the exact same. Hopefully down the line they add in runes (or some similar mechanic) and have certain areas better for doing certain things.
Torchlight 2's problems go way beyond this though. There's just no incentive to do anything once you've beaten the game. Items are only fun to find when you can do something with them.