Doctor Ironic
Member
When you know there's a Lucio on the enemy team, don't stand by the edges of pits.
A good third of the cast has the ability to return even if they get booped anyways. It's completely different from pre-nerf Roadhog's hooks.
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Kotaku: Overwatch Players Are Mourning Roadhog
- Thread starter Saucycarpdog
- Start date
When you know there's a Lucio on the enemy team, don't stand by the edges of pits.
A good third of the cast has the ability to return even if they get booped anyways. It's completely different from pre-nerf Roadhog's hooks.
Completely agree. The most bullshit thing was hooking through walls and that was also more or less fixed. I think he was in a decent spot, I fail to see why they have nerfed him to this point.
blankempathy
Member
When you know there's a Roadhog on the other team don't stand out in the open and utilize walls.
More than third of the cast has the ability to prevent team mates from dying from the hook combo.
Wait what, it sounds like characters have *gasp* strategies that can be used when playing against them???
ElephantShell
Banned
I wouldn't worry about this. They'll probably see they went too far and buff him back up a bit to make him worth playing again. Haven't they done this before with other characters?
I give up man. You're so committed to this idea that you're not going to budge, even when you make the same argument about situational awareness in a different context. The logic with Lucio is the same as the logic with Roadhog. It's the same. Don't get caught out.
Doctor Ironic
Member
Roadhog stuns you while you patiently await getting headshotted by his scattergun. Lucio displaces you while you still have complete control over your character. If you really think it's the same thing then explain how it's the same. Discuss video games on the video game forum.
Psychoward
Banned
Perhaps, but the very fact that they did this at all especially with the outcry on the PTR and from pros and after tweaking him to be near-perfect is a problem itself. Not to mention it'll take them months to buff him back up to a playable state if ever.
Did people forget what happened to the game when Roadhog was a meta defining character? He hasn't been really strong since then, but like I "get" why he ended up getting killed over it. Whenever he is in meta he has really bad implications for the game which is kind of unfortunate.
They really should've worked on fixing him closer to launch when it was clearly a problem instead of waiting a literal year for people to get used to him existing as is.
A lot of people in this thread don't really have the context on to what Roadhog's actual history with the game was though. Need to do some learning.
They really should've worked on fixing him closer to launch when it was clearly a problem instead of waiting a literal year for people to get used to him existing as is.
A lot of people in this thread don't really have the context on to what Roadhog's actual history with the game was though. Need to do some learning.
blankempathy
Member
But you don't want to have an actual discussion.
Its already been proven that the meta that roadhog was so prevalent in was defined by Ana and not hog. Ana got nerfed. Good bye triple tank meta.
Nah I'm good
Roadhog only stuns you if you are poorly positioned or have teammates that don't protect you. It's you or your team's fault if you get hooked and die, just likes it's you and your team's fault if you die to any other ability in the game. The only thing you need to do is learn from it and get better so you know how to avoid it.
Doctor Ironic
Member
How am I not having a discussion? Seriously. I'm doing more actual point-counterpoint than snarky insults like
I'm more than willing to listen to opposing ideas about the game's balance, my problem is that instead of actually doing that you've just implied that because I have problems with the game I must be a bad player or salty over Roadhog hooks.
That's not exactly true. I was playing in scrims and GM during that meta while following the pro scene. Roadhog was absolutely a problem throughout the entire time since he could always be a DPS replacement in any given scenario.
People get these whack ideas about meta stuff and don't really understand what happened too.
gunslikewhoa
Member
It's not, though. He's slow and loud. Track his cooldown, be aware of his range, etc.
I keep seeing this 'but getting one-shotted isn't fun' and it's like the entire context of this being a rock-paper-scissors team game is being ignored. Yeah, it sucks you got hooked, Tracer. Maybe you need to switch heroes. Maybe it would help if people would call out Roadhog's position, etc.
There were always answers/counters available to a team getting wrecked by Roadhog.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
I'm worried about it. Right before this, they nerfed Orisa's damage even though she 1. had only 144 DPS with perfect accuracy, and is a projectile character, 2. had been nonexistent in the meta since her introduction. And now after nerfing Roadhog, they've buffed Zarya's ultimate purely to remove counterplay from it, and made it even easier to kill people with McCree's flashbang. The game is not headed in a very promising direction.
blankempathy
Member
Except you completely ignored the facts I gave you. Its a snarky response because you're clearly trying your best to gloss over the other facts given to you.
Was hog nerfed in any way that took him out of the meta? So why suddenly was he stopped from being used? Hog simply fell into the meta and fell out. Sounds more like the balancing of other characters impacted the meta instead of hog himself. Which is funny that he was so severely nerfed now where he's not a part of the dive meta problem.
King Gilga
Member
He was actually nerfed 3 separate times with an indirect nerf somewhere else in there. Hook going down to 8 seconds while having to follow LoS rules was the one to really push him out of OP territory. Whenever D.Va got her DM buff that made it so she could actually block for a hooked target he was mostly done for.
Like, there are a lot of circumstances involving him falling off, but the most direct patch was the 8s CD with the nerfed LoS combined with some meta stuff. Ana had very little to do with it while D.Va and Winston had a lot more to do with it. The implication is that in order for Roadhog to be strong, he has to directly compete with circumventing things as powerful as that with his current kit. That has led to some really bad things before, so it makes sense Blizz just wanna remove that aspect of his kit and move him somewhere else. I don't think that's the wrong idea. I do think how they did it is hilariously awful. They let players have a whole year with this thing that doesn't really work like the rest of the game, then they just nerf it like 5 times so nobody is happy.
As it happens Jeff Kaplan has today said they're looking at Orisa:
"We don't think she needs a mega buff. We are experimenting with some minor improvements though. Apologies for no details -- we're trying a few things right now and not all of them are going to stick. Overall, we feel like she's not far off but not quite in the ideal spot yet."
I think they're probably right that she isn't that far off balance wise. If one thing has been made exceptionally clear from Blizzards attempts to balance Overwatch, it doesn't take much to tip the scales quite radically.
blankempathy
Member
But with the hook cd and los nerf also came the gun buff which arguably made him stronger. Not to mention they also fixed a lot of the wonky hook mechanics where you'd hook someone and they'd land above you or behind you. Ana and Hanzo would get placed too far away to follow up properly.
Psychoward
Banned
Besides Orisa's kit not meshing well at all, her very first balance change after hitting live made me think they're never going to get her to a point where I personally enjoyed playing as her. They nerfed her damage even on console but reduced the CD on her barrier. meh
This is 100% false. That nerf hurt him really hard at a high level and every top RH player agreed. Nobody saw it as a buff outside of misinformed low level players. The wonky hook stuff was somethign top RH players could deal with consistently btw so that little part didn't affect him that much at higher level.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
That stuff is absolutely still there, and it's worse than ever because now it's not as predictable or reactable. Try jumping and hooking somebody else in the air to see how bad it can get.
Diablohead
Member
Battle Mercy, I will thank them if they slay me
Yup that's why I only play once in a while.
I always come back for the events though lol
blankempathy
Member
Thanks for the info. Still that does line up with why he got killed now since hes not as strong as he used to be.
Its not remotely as bad in my observation. With doomfist knocking me up in the air so often I usually meet him with a hook mid air and he always gets pulled into me. His gun is the factor in his unpredictability for me.
This is the really confusing part. His kit is just problematic in general since so much power is offloaded into a single tool. It's been like this for awhile, and it's been frustrating for players to cope with too on both sides of the character. So like, it finally hit a point where Blizzard decided it's best to just completely redistribute his tools. That makes sense. Regardless of balance and where he's at, they just want to redefine his identity as more than a hookbot.
Why it took them a full year, 5~ or so tweaks to the main kit, and several different iterations of metagame to do this is beyond me. Why they would not just leave him alone until they had a better idea of what to do with the kit is also beyond me. They really screwed up with the timing and execution of all this which led to this reaction. This article and thread probably would not exist if they would have been a lot more proactive with looking at what players were making of the character a year ago.
The nerf is ridiculous. Bad players crying out after getting one shot hooked, all you literally have to do is dodge. If you get one shot by hookhog that's your own fault tbh
People are mad because they're bad at the game?? I don't get what multiplayer competitive video games are anymore
People are mad because they're bad at the game?? I don't get what multiplayer competitive video games are anymore
Habaneroguy
Member
The pre-nerf 1 hit kill roadhog hook was probably the most unfun thing to play against. It had a 20m range! If you were a squishy of any kind and got hooked you were dead. Yeah, I know there was a problem with Ana and Hanzo getting hooked, but even if they weren't immediately killed theres not much they could do anyway. I'm not gonna say Roadhog is "better" now because of the change, but the rest of the game is better thats for sure.
It hasn't screwed him, because the ability to escape is now present, and it wasn't before. It just means Roadhog has to try a bit harder, is all, and work closer with teammates. You are under the assumption that all cooldowns will be ready, all weapons reloaded, and that no other teammates are nearby. You're talking about a character that can tank the majority of damage with a skill with a very, very low cooldown. His damage output is also up there.
It is a very simple nerf that needed to happen since Day One. Bad players are usually the ones who cry when their obviously advantageous character is balanced. Also, very few Heroes have a dedicated dodge button, so I'm not certain what "just dodge" means. "Just headshot everytime", right?
Psychoward
Banned
Why isn't he picked then
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
As a Zenyatta player, getting swarmed by Tracer, Doomfist, Winston, and D.Va every single game and having no defense against it is NOT better. This is the worst the game has been since D.Va was invincible with 400 armor.
LordKasual
Banned
The difference is the ease at which you're able to exploit the character's strength. In Roadhog's case...you literally just need to land a single move, and it's not as though the hook's hitbox was particularly small or anything.
Pharah is easily the dumbest character in the game (before doomfist anyway) though, it doesn't take much to cause massive problems for the enemy team, but you need a hitscan who can actually aim to counter her.
Furthermore, you aren't even directing your gunfire to the enemy team when you're fighting pharah. You're just fighting pharah. Meanwhile everyone else is plowing your teammates
Mercy + Pharah? You're pointlessly fighting Pharah because unless you're a god, you aren't going to kill her. Now you have to aim at Mercy. Mercy is harder to hit than Pharah. Pharah is still aiming at you. Enemy team still aiming at you.
SarcasticD
Member
Yeah it made there game better if your in love with the DIVE DIVE DIVE comp
Psychoward
Banned
A single move and then the successful follow up while that move is on an 8 second cooldown, can't go through barriers and the average accuracy even among GM players is ~50%.
Blam
Member
Yup I don't like it one bit since these are the vocal minority that devs usually goto.
I don't understand who they are even consulting on game changes? Are they asking pros? Doesn't seem like it seems more like blizzard changes, vocal minority responds and they proceed to act on something which is very wrong.
Valve does this very well. Nearly all their changes have been well received to the public excluding the R8.
Really it seems like most comp shooters are great at their beginning and absolutely suck as they keep going on. It's so stupid these games are managed like this. Very rarely do you see a competitive game that doesn't need a nerf. (Halo 3 is a good example)
So true.
Frozenprince
Banned
"His damage is still up there" except it isn't. He has an accuracy that sits just around 35% for most comp tiers. With the 33% damage reduction, you net less damage despite a higher fire rate. This doesn't even account for the apread being ridiculous on his primary.
"He works if everything around him and all circumstance is perfect" is not viable. He is useless. He. Is. Useless.
That's why NOBODY plays him anymore.
"He works if everything around him and all circumstance is perfect" is not viable. He is useless. He. Is. Useless.
That's why NOBODY plays him anymore.
Karsticles
Member
You should see what these losers have been doing to fighting games...
I see him picked often still, personally, but I realize he's fallen off the radar. The answer is simple: he isn't as basic to kill with anymore, so to many, the "fun" is gone.
He isn't capable of killing at all
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
It's been posted like, 20 times in this thread that he isn't played anymore even by the best players.
By people who are so good at playing Roadhog that they are paid actual real money to play him.
Psychoward
Banned
That's an understatement. His highest pick rate is in Bronze where it's 1.29%. Because he's less than useless, he helps the enemy team more than he hurts them.
gunslikewhoa
Member
Ugh. Nobody plays him anymore for a reason. Typing all of this stuff about why you believe he's viable doesn't make it so.
No, his use is gone. Roadhog hook is basically a suicide move now.
Blam
Member
But he's not being picked. I see him get picked close to 1 in every 50-70 games. Even pros are saying he's not being picked.
Which means he's literally become useless. It's not "basic" to kill anyone with roadhog now. It's just not gonna work he doesn't do enough damage, he doesn't do anything good now.
Sygma
Member
Nobody is good with him, so far cant complain. Besides hes countered so hard by Ana / Sombra that it's not even funny for him tbh
Psychoward
Banned
Yeah he sucks but his gimmick is his OHK as well and he released after the Hog nerf so
LordKasual
Banned
50% is actually pretty significant considering over half the cast dies when it lands.
Imagine if 76's helix rockets had a 50% usage kill rate lol
Psychoward
Banned
especially after the distance pulled nerf there were plenty of ways to not die even if you've been hooked
but imagine if s76 didn't have sprint, didn't have an aoe heal that he could move around after placing and was fat with a giant hitbox and no reliable sustained damage on anything other than barriers