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Kudo Tsunoda + Kinect on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon tonight

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Frustrated_me said:
Granted, but I highly doubt MS is going to drop this thing @ 150$ - I'm pretty sure they're pulling an Apple and I'm calling their buff.

Why would they want to trick their user base and target audience in this way?

3kuSaS said:
Wii sold well because motion control technology intrigues people, if Nintendo created a standard console with the same game lineup they would be lucky to be in Sonys position right now. Kinect has the potential to do casual motion control games better than wii ever could, so really it could steal a good chunk of Wiis party game audience away. And they would deserve that success because the technology is better. Why are people so threatened by that? Its just the way things go in business. When facebook came along, im sure all of you ditched your myspaces. Dont buy Kinect if you dont want it. I dont give a crap about my wii, so I dont play it. Case closed.


You are so wrong that I don't think it's possible to explain to you how wrong you are. Sorry to tell you but software (the games) is what helped sell the Wii. More so than you can wave your handz!!!111one!!

Nintendo has great game characters so that matters alot too.
 
mckmas8808 said:
Nintendo has great game characters so that matters alot too.

Wii fit and Wii sports have great game characters? Do not get me wrong, I know what you mean, but those two games boosted the sales pretty much alone.
 
3kuSaS said:
The only games that need motion controls at all are the casual party games and fitness games, they would be shovelware without it. Without that, Wii is Gamecube all over again..same ol' Nintendo games, and worse graphics then its competitors.

trauma-center-second-opinion-20061113071646889.jpg
 
Fourth Stooge said:
I think it's an accurate argument in "defense" of the product, considering the type of "attacks" being made. The people attempting to make a "case" (why?!) against Kinect are making a technical "attack" with their frame rates, pixel counts, lag times, no hardcore games, can't sit and play for 10 hours straight, can't control Netflix with your hand, etc. They're making a GAF-centric argument and applying it to the world. No one in their right mind cares. In other words this is a re-worked keyboard and mouse vs. controller argument. (Yes, the controller is different and not as precise...and most people are okay with that....)

Kinect is not going to succeed or fail on the basis of its technical specs or nerds whipping themselves into a circle jerk of rage on GAF. Only two things will count: fun and value. From what I've seen it apparently is fun. That seems to be unanimous from the people who either used it or watched a video of real people using it. Deal with it the best you can if it bothers you that much. Other people like different things. Unless you believe everyone is either lying or was bribed....(you know who you are...or do you?).

The only question is whether it is $150 of fun. For me and the people I'm buying for, that's an easy question (yes). If the Wii was worth $250 (or much more if scalped, before any accessories) four years ago, this is worth the extra amount it costs. But if you're 22 years old and have your 360 set up in your bedroom (or no 360), money's a little tight, etc. then it doesn't make much sense for you. There's nothing wrong with that. Just wait until you're buying gifts for children one day. Shit like this is gold and makes for easy shopping.

It comes down to this: Put a Kinect kiosk in a Wal-Mart with Kinectimals running and I doubt any of the objections raised here on GAF about Kinect's technical flaws will amount to anything. That's why the "GAF opinion" is likely wrong. The thing just looks fun. That's it. Fun.

I know it's been quoted, but THIS. I hear a bunch of GAF members outraged, but this is definitely getting attention from non-gaming gamers. It's been #1 on Amazon for over a week now, too, if that matters at all. (Strangely, Kinect Sports is around 30-50.)
 
FateBreaker said:
I know it's been quoted, but THIS. I hear a bunch of GAF members outraged, but this is definitely getting attention from non-gaming gamers. It's been #1 on Amazon for over a week now, too, if that matters at all. (Strangely, Kinect Sports is around 30-50.)

Actually, it's not #1 there now.
 
derFeef said:
Wii fit and Wii sports have great game characters? Do not get me wrong, I know what you mean, but those two games boosted the sales pretty much alone.

Yep. Almost everyone I know who owns one bought it for Wii sports or Wii fit. When casuals buy ( which a boatload of them did) it it's because they played Wii sports or Wii party at someone elses house. Not Mario Galaxy, Metroid and Zelda.
 
FateBreaker said:
I know it's been quoted, but THIS. I hear a bunch of GAF members outraged, but this is definitely getting attention from non-gaming gamers. It's been #1 on Amazon for over a week now, too, if that matters at all. (Strangely, Kinect Sports is around 30-50.)
Someone should tell them they can get 90% the same experience on the eyetoy for 1/5th of the price.


The thing that is going to sell this is the marketing. The actual product is pretty unremarkable, with a limit scope of games it could be fully implemented into.
 
Vinci said:
So you're saying that Wii Sports was NOT significant to the Wii's success? That it could have been any motion control game, made by Nintendo or any 3rd party?

If Kinect & Kinect sports, or Sony with Move and a simular sports game came first, it would have had the same success.



Mario Kart is a casual game? Why, because it sold enormously well? And many of their core franchises have sold better on the Wii than they ever did the GC, though that has little to do with motion control and more to do with a larger userbase to sell to.

Im not the best writer all the time so sorry for the confusion, but I never said that Mario Kart is a casual game. And actually, only two of their core franchises has performed significantly better than its GC counterparts.

Best selling Wii games said:
Mario Kart Wii (22.55 million)
New Super Mario Bros. Wii (14.70 million)
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (9.48 million)
Super Mario Galaxy (8.02 million)
Mario Party 8 (7.6 million)
Link's Crossbow Training (4.80 million)
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (4.52 million)
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption (1.31 million)

Best selling GC games said:
Super Smash Bros. Melee (7.10 million)
Mario Kart: Double Dash (7.03 million)
Super Mario Sunshine (5.8 million
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker 3.07 million
Luigi's Mansion (2.639 million approximately: 2.19 million
Animal Crossing (2.321 million approximately: 1.68 million
Mario Party 4 (2.003 million approximately: 1.1 million
Metroid Prime (2 million)[8]
Mario Party 7 (1.86 million)

You can clearly see that besides Mario Kart & Party, no other series has shown a significant sales increase. Ninty fans buy Ninty games, so of course their famous franchises will always sell well. The only reason a few titles were able to sell better than on GC is because all those casuals & children who own a Wii need something new to play, and Nintendo games are great obviously.

The people you are talking about don't give a rat's ass about how third party games look on other systems; they are 'simple' creatures according to you, right? You think they're paying attention to that? No. They play the Wii. There are other games, made by Nintendo and 3rd parties. They overwhelmingly choose Nintendo titles. Why?

Besides DS, third party games on Nintendo haven't really sold well since N64. The only difference between Wii 3rd party titles is that they are superior on other systems.Like i said, most people who bought Wii bought it for the trio of wii sports, fit & play and not much else, and the main Nintendo franchises will always sell well regardless.
 
gerg said:
Also, if motions controls were the be all and end all to success, then Wii Music would have sold on par with Wii Play, Wii Sports, and Wii Fit. Of course, it didn't, but who knows why?

Um because from what I've played of it, its pretty terrible?
 
3kuSaS said:
Um because from what I've played of it, its pretty terrible?

But, according to you, software isn't important in regards to a game's success. It seems like you've contradicted yourself.

So, without referring to how terrible the "game" is, please tell me why Wii Music performed so badly by referring exclusively to motion controls.
 
3kuSaS said:
If Kinect & Kinect sports, or Sony with Move and a simular sports game came first, it would have had the same success.

There's no way to know that for sure, so I'll just say that I doubt it and leave it at that. It's impossible to measure one way or another.

You can clearly see that besides Mario Kart & Party, no other series has shown a significant sales increase. Ninty fans buy Ninty games, so of course their famous franchises will always sell well. The only reason a few titles were able to sell better than on GC is because all those casuals & children who own a Wii need something new to play, and Nintendo games are great obviously.

Brawl selling two million more than Melee isn't significant? Mario Galaxy selling over two million more than Sunshine isn't significant? Yes, the upswing is more pronounced with Mario Kart and Mario Party, but adding two millions sales to an established franchise from one entry to the next is a pretty significant increase.
 
Vinci said:
There's no way to know that for sure, so I'll just say that I doubt it and leave it at that. It's impossible to measure one way or another.



Brawl selling two million more than Melee isn't significant? Mario Galaxy selling over two million more than Sunshine isn't significant? Yes, the upswing is more pronounced with Mario Kart and Mario Party, but adding two millions sales to an established franchise from one entry to the next is a pretty significant increase.
Yeah, but not quite as much when you consider the Wii's hardware sales to the GameCube's.
 
Vinci said:
There's no way to know that for sure, so I'll just say that I doubt it and leave it at that. It's impossible to measure one way or another.
Honest question: Wasn't eyetoy+Kinectic very similar (albeit less advanced, I think) to what Kinect is doing right now, and also the cornerstone of what Move is doing? The product itself is important, sure, but I wouldn't take Nintendo's "magic" (marketing, design, image, advertising, gameplay, brand, etc) out of the equation.

If what we are discussing here is whether Kinect will fail or not, I'll say it again: I don't think it will fail. IF it comes out at U$150 with no games, IF people can't get over the "only two players at once/can't sit/laggy/twitchy" issues, Microsoft will find a way to push it into the market, eventually. Even then, it might just be the first step towards something more advanced/polished in future hardware generations. The "fail" condition to me would be: "microsoft stopped manufacturing/advertising/selling it" i.e. HD-DVD drive. I don't see that happening.

Do I see this product selling as much as the Wii? No, I don't (though I'm prepared to be wrong). Do I see it selling more than Move? Yes, I do; not because one is better than the other (if pressed, I'd rather invest in move than kinect), but because -as I have mentioned before- Microsoft has shown their willingness to go all out in an advertisement war (Halo, Gears). They have also shown that they can forget how to market their products (Viva piñata). But I think Kinect is kind of Microsoft's darling right now. They're not interested in another HD-DVD/Viva piñata.
 
gerg said:
But, according to you, software isn't important in regards to a game's success. It seems like you've contradicted yourself.

So, without referring to how terrible the "game" is, please tell me why Wii Music performed so badly by referring exclusively to motion controls.

It still sold almost 3 million copies...so that just shows how having motion controls intrigued casuals and set Wii apart from its competitors. Its sales numbers are a combination of Nintendo fans buying anything with Nintendo on it and casuals in search of games that show off the motion control technology. Fun factor still counts as well and its just not that fun, so thats why it wasnt able to reach the same audiences as the casual trio (sports,fit,play)
 
Lunchbox said:
this is wii 2.0

hardcore will make fun of it, mainstream will eat it up

Yep. Looking forward to it, though i think it has a lot to offer for the hardcore. I think Dance Central looks bloody amazing.

mckmas8808 said:
Why would they want to trick their user base and target audience in this way?

You are so wrong that I don't think it's possible to explain to you how wrong you are. Sorry to tell you but software (the games) is what helped sell the Wii. More so than you can wave your handz!!!111one!!

Nintendo has great game characters so that matters alot too.

He's right though, fitness games can detect your posture, that alone puts it above any other motion tech. Dance central also, its interpreting your movement, not the way a controller is pointed.

Kinect is perfect for ideas that focus on movement like this. And who says they wont implement tradational control Kinect hybrid.
 
3kuSaS said:
Fun factor still counts as well and its just not that fun, so thats why it wasnt able to reach the same audiences as the casual trio (sports,fit,play)

You're dodging the question.

Why wasn't Wii Music as fun as Wii Play or Wii Sports? Bear in mind that you can't actually refer to the quality of the software (or you'll defeat your own argument), so please tell me why Wii Music wasn't as fun as Wii Play by referring solely to the motion controls the player made when playing the game.
 
ascii42 said:
Yeah, but not quite as much when you consider the Wii's hardware sales to the GameCube's.

This is a foolish metric to measure success on. Virtually nothing sells well compared to install base.

FunkyPajamas said:
Microsoft has shown their willingness to go all out in an advertisement war (Halo, Gears). They have also shown that they can forget how to market their products (Viva piñata). But I think Kinect is kind of Microsoft's darling right now. They're not interested in another HD-DVD/Viva piñata.

Advertising only takes a product so far. It doesn't matter if it isn't what the consumer wants or tries to fulfill a need that has already been met.
 
Vinci said:
Brawl selling two million more than Melee isn't significant? Mario Galaxy selling over two million more than Sunshine isn't significant? Yes, the upswing is more pronounced with Mario Kart and Mario Party, but adding two millions sales to an established franchise from one entry to the next is a pretty significant increase.

Smash Bros sold 4 million more on GC than it did on N64. Even if Wii wasnt able to get the massive user base of casuals, hell if Wii didn't have motion controls to begin with, whos to say the sales increase wouldn't be identical?
 
Best selling Wii games list is pretty insane. The drop in sales is dramatic. Number 1 title is mindbogglingly huge but number eight is equal to a normal monthly hit (with tail).
 
gerg said:
You're dodging the question.

Why wasn't Wii Music as fun as Wii Play or Wii Sports? Bear in mind that you can't actually refer to the quality of the software (or you'll defeat your own argument), so please tell me why Wii Music wasn't as fun as Wii Play by referring solely to the motion controls the player made when playing the game.

More people would rather emulate playing sports than emulate conducting music, motion controls doesn't change that fact. Wii music could be controlled with a fleshlight wiimote attachment and the sports game would still win every time.
 
Man said:
Best selling Wii games list is pretty insane. The drop in sales is dramatic. Number 1 title is mindbogglingly huge but number eight is equal to a normal monthly hit (with tail).

That list isn't comprehensive. Wii Play and Wii Fit aren't there, for one, and there are certainly more than eight million-selling titles on the Wii.

3kuSaS said:
More people would rather emulate playing sports than emulate conducting music, motion controls doesn't change that fact. Wii music could be controlled with a fleshlight wiimote attachment and the sports game would still win every time.

So you've admitted it: the software - what you actually do in the game - is a significant aspect of the appeal of a game.
 
Fourth Stooge said:
It comes down to this: Put a Kinect kiosk in a Wal-Mart with Kinectimals running and I doubt any of the objections raised here on GAF about Kinect's technical flaws will amount to anything. That's why the "GAF opinion" is likely wrong. The thing just looks fun. That's it. Fun.
To me it looks like the corporate, market research driven approximation of fun. Which might be all it takes, Transformers 2 was a big hit despite being soulless after all, but there is always the chance that a product just feels wrong and doesn't click when designed by people who have little respect for their audience.
 
3kuSaS said:
Smash Bros sold 4 million more on GC than it did on N64. Even if Wii wasnt able to get the massive user base of casuals, hell if Wii didn't have motion controls to begin with, whos to say the sales increase wouldn't be identical?

And Mario Sunshine sold nearly three times less than Mario 64, whereas Galaxy only sold two million less and twice what Sunshine did. Where does that put us?
 
gerg said:
That list isn't comprehensive. Wii Play and Wii Fit aren't there, for one, and there are certainly more than eight million-selling titles on the Wii.

Well here ya go
Wii Sports (63.46 million)[2]
Wii Play (27.38 million)[2]
Wii Fit (22.61 million)[2]
Mario Kart Wii (22.55 million)[2]
Wii Sports Resort (16.14 million)[2]
New Super Mario Bros. Wii (14.70 million)[2]
Wii Fit Plus (12.65 million)[2]
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (9.48 million)[2]
Super Mario Galaxy (8.02 million)[3]
Mario Party 8 (7.6 million)[4]
Link's Crossbow Training (4.80 million)[2]
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (4.52 million)[5]
Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (3.4 million)[6]
Animal Crossing: City Folk (3.38 million)[3]
Wii Music (2.65 million)[3]
Super Paper Mario (2.28 million)[5]
Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree (2.26 million)[5]
Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (2 million)[7]
Deca Sports (2 million shipped)[8]
Game Party (2 million shipped)[9]
Just Dance (2 million shipped)[10]
WarioWare: Smooth Moves (1.82 million)[11]
EA Sports Active (1.8 million)[12]

You can see that besides the casual fitness & sports game, along with Mario Kart and NSMB...the sales are pretty much what you expect for a Nintendo title and not nearly enough to account for the massive user base. Nintendo fans are actually pretending like Nintendo is taking over when in fact the only thing that is taking over is sports/fitness games that the whole family can play.
 
3kuSaS said:
Well here ya go

Even that's not comprehensive.

In any case, I don't care for this part of the debate now that you've actively conceded that your original argument - that motion controls are the only factor in the success of either the Wii or its software - was wrong.

Are you going to try and backpedal from the fact that you said that "motion controls doesn't [sic] change that fact"?
 
This product generates so much passion, mostly negative, and I wonder why?

If it succeeds will it destroy gaming as we know it?


Seems that if it really was bad as people here made it out to be it would simply be ignored.
 
Vinci said:
Brawl selling two million more than Melee isn't significant? Mario Galaxy selling over two million more than Sunshine isn't significant? Yes, the upswing is more pronounced with Mario Kart and Mario Party, but adding two millions sales to an established franchise from one entry to the next is a pretty significant increase.
And TP also released on the GC. So Zelda expanded a lot too.
 
gerg said:
So you've admitted it: the software - what you actually do in the game - is a significant aspect of the appeal of a game.

Sure it is, but HOW the game has also proved to be an even bigger factor. No one gave a shit about video game bowling until the technology came along that made it more true to life. If you introduce the consumer to a new exciting way to play games that works well, you're going to do very well. People always envisioned a future where everyone plays games controller free in VR, Wii's fitness/sports games are the closest thing to that now so thier success is a given.
 
Man, that video was painful. Jimmy's co-host (??) barely moved, and much of the on-screen movement was awkward at best.

MS had better hope it has better software than Kinect Adventure at launch, otherwise I have a feeling the product is going to crash and burn.
 
3kuSaS said:
Sure it is, but HOW the game has also proved to be an even bigger factor.

That wasn't your original argument.

I originally said:

gerg said:
... people bought the Wii (as with other consoles) because they wanted the gameplay experiences enabled by both the technology and the software.

You then said:

3kuSaS said:
... it sold well because you can play shit by moving your hands. Done and done.

3kuSaS said:
Motion controls are the reason for the success, period. I truly believe its that simple.

Edit: In any case, I'm disinterested in splitting hairs. Getting you to admit that both software and technology are important is good enough for me. Goodnight.
 
Fourth Stooge said:
I think it's an accurate argument in "defense" of the product, considering the type of "attacks" being made. The people attempting to make a "case" (why?!) against Kinect are making a technical "attack" with their frame rates, pixel counts, lag times, no hardcore games, can't sit and play for 10 hours straight, can't control Netflix with your hand, etc. They're making a GAF-centric argument and applying it to the world. No one in their right mind cares. In other words this is a re-worked keyboard and mouse vs. controller argument. (Yes, the controller is different and not as precise...and most people are okay with that....)

Kinect is not going to succeed or fail on the basis of its technical specs or nerds whipping themselves into a circle jerk of rage on GAF. Only two things will count: fun and value. From what I've seen it apparently is fun. That seems to be unanimous from the people who either used it or watched a video of real people using it. Deal with it the best you can if it bothers you that much. Other people like different things. Unless you believe everyone is either lying or was bribed....(you know who you are...or do you?).

The only question is whether it is $150 of fun. For me and the people I'm buying for, that's an easy question (yes). If the Wii was worth $250 (or much more if scalped, before any accessories) four years ago, this is worth the extra amount it costs. But if you're 22 years old and have your 360 set up in your bedroom (or no 360), money's a little tight, etc. then it doesn't make much sense for you. There's nothing wrong with that. Just wait until you're buying gifts for children one day. Shit like this is gold and makes for easy shopping.

It comes down to this: Put a Kinect kiosk in a Wal-Mart with Kinectimals running and I doubt any of the objections raised here on GAF about Kinect's technical flaws will amount to anything. That's why the "GAF opinion" is likely wrong. The thing just looks fun. That's it. Fun.

Excellent!
 
gerg said:
That wasn't your original argument.

I originally said:



You then said:


Edit: In any case, I'm disinterested in splitting hairs. Getting you to admit that both software and technology are important is good enough for me. Goodnight.

Yeah this has grown tiresome for me as well, and a reminder why I dont really do the forum thing anymore. But you must've missed this about post by me

More people would rather emulate playing sports than emulate conducting music, motion controls doesn't change that fact. Wii music could be controlled with a fleshlight wiimote attachment and the sports game would still win every time.

I believe that pretty well backs up my original argument.
 
Vinci said:
Advertising only takes a product so far. It doesn't matter if it isn't what the consumer wants or tries to fulfill a need that has already been met.
That's true, that's why I'm not saying that this product will have the same success as the Wii. All I'm saying is that Microsoft will not let this product die without a fight. And in that process, they will sell enough (in my opinion) to make this thing "worth their while". i.e. we will see this tech implemented in future microsoft consoles in one way or another.
OuterWorldVoice said:
What it always wants. Shenmue 3 on Dreamcast 2.
Believe.
 
Vinci said:
And Mario Sunshine sold nearly three times less than Mario 64, whereas Galaxy only sold two million less and twice what Sunshine did. Where does that put us?

Shit...i dunno! Im sure theres a lot of factors that went into it. Whatever the case, I think that it proves Nintendo's core franchises had very little to do with Wiis massive mainstream success, its all in the motion control man & sports/fitness games and Im sticking to that. Im sure many people will agree, and apparently your not one of those people. Its all good man.
 
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