I don't think Ornn design is all bad or something btw. Would have to put a decent amount of time in on him to have a strong opinion and I'm not sure if that will happen. All his abilities are fine conceptually. Not sure League has something like his fire breath. Really good visual design/voice. Hard to fix/balance a champ that has weird stuff though like the shop related stuff, and I don't think it adds an element to Ornn that is fun. The Ezreal on my team being able to buy an upgraded Triforce at 50 minutes or something isn't going to excite me. The reason I say I'm not sure why the champ went through is because it is very hard to take something like this out when they tried to tie it to the champ identity and created an expectation for it to be there. Then you get the weird scaling and the very slow movement and it's just sort of confusing to me....
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League of Legends |OT13| Diamond is Unreachable
- Thread starter Dobkeratops
- Start date
Eh, I think the abilities in a vacuum individually is fine but as a kit overall I think it's not good at all. His fire breath is similar in the veign of a Rumble flamesplitter in many ways imo but not as good. His visual design is nice but I'm more concerned about the gameplay.
idk, i think it's hard to judge until he's in a more decent power situation
xayah i found to be really uninteresting in design but she actually feels really good to play so sometimes it depends a lot on that to nail her design
i do think ornn's passive is a bit of a missed opportunity since having like more ad or more ap is kind of lame for a passive that could be potentially really cool (imagine if everyone on your team got like a viktor style upgrade), but also potentially really game breaking so i see why they took the safe route
but yeah i like sion style design for tanks, and for most champions to be honest
i think a lot of champions put a lot of the onus of counterplay on the opponent (like idk camille or something) while here you have to actually execute or you'll make a fool of yourself
in general i think that's a design direction that i wish more champions had
xayah i found to be really uninteresting in design but she actually feels really good to play so sometimes it depends a lot on that to nail her design
i do think ornn's passive is a bit of a missed opportunity since having like more ad or more ap is kind of lame for a passive that could be potentially really cool (imagine if everyone on your team got like a viktor style upgrade), but also potentially really game breaking so i see why they took the safe route
but yeah i like sion style design for tanks, and for most champions to be honest
i think a lot of champions put a lot of the onus of counterplay on the opponent (like idk camille or something) while here you have to actually execute or you'll make a fool of yourself
in general i think that's a design direction that i wish more champions had
Dreams-Visions
Member
I haven't seen it either. Then again, my sample size is 1 game.
Can we make his combo a bit faster please. The thing is so slow and telegraphed any top laner with half a brain can walk out of it. All of his abilities require so much set up, and there's so many things that can go wrong with each step of the process.
Just doesn't have that reliability I'm looking for
Just doesn't have that reliability I'm looking for
Ornn is cool, I like him a lot. Just needs some tweaks, because he's pretty underwhelming right now.
A much, much cooler design would be for him to be able to craft unique, Ornn-craftable-only AD, AP, and tank items. These items could then be given to his teammates. The items would be fairly weak and cheap, but could be 'broken down' into gold for the teammate once they become slot restricted, like the Doran's items. But he could give a early-game-weak champion a little power boost or help a snowballing lane snowball harder.
Something like that would be much cooler than craftable items you won't ever see in 95% of your games.
A much, much cooler design would be for him to be able to craft unique, Ornn-craftable-only AD, AP, and tank items. These items could then be given to his teammates. The items would be fairly weak and cheap, but could be 'broken down' into gold for the teammate once they become slot restricted, like the Doran's items. But he could give a early-game-weak champion a little power boost or help a snowballing lane snowball harder.
Something like that would be much cooler than craftable items you won't ever see in 95% of your games.
He would need an immense stats buff in order for him to be viable right now from what i've seen. There's no point in playing him when he offers utility in a teamfight but gets absolutely smashed in laning phase to the point where getting to the teamfight phase is garbage.
I know you said this before but it is just impossible to understand why you wouldn't change your mind by now. Xayah is unique to her role while still fitting the same mold. She and Rakan are both super healthy for the game, have an impact on the meta without being overwhelming, and fill completely unique spaces while having straightforward playstyles.
They only did stat buff hotfix as a quick band-aid. They will come back for more serious changes.
idk what's completely unique about her, specially when you compare her to rakan who i feel plays unlike any other support out there. when i think unique i think of twitch's invisibility or kalista's hopping or sivir enabling her team's engage, xayah to me looks/feels like a different flavored adc
i'm open to being convinced tho, but just saying she is unique is not really saying much
i know it may seem obvious to you but it's not obvious to me
why talk in circles....
History has proven out that Xayah has distinct play patterns in games with laying down feathers and lining them up, along with the hard CC that brings. This is what makes her such a huge teamfight presence and if you turn on competitive play you can see pros singling her out because of what she uniquely offers. Even the ult is big for avoidance/aggression. Watch pro games at all if you need to be convinced.
History has proven out that Xayah has distinct play patterns in games with laying down feathers and lining them up, along with the hard CC that brings. This is what makes her such a huge teamfight presence and if you turn on competitive play you can see pros singling her out because of what she uniquely offers. Even the ult is big for avoidance/aggression. Watch pro games at all if you need to be convinced.
Wolf Akela
Member
Well, her Pierce autos are pretty unique. The only other champ that does that is Twitch, but Spray and Pray is a bigger moment of burst.
Her kiting pattern is also unique.
Her kiting pattern is also unique.
Stone Ocean
Member
She's a bursty kiting ADC that needs to be mindful of her passive lines and feather positioning on top of being the only ADC with untargetability. She breaks the gameplay mold in a way similar to Draven, I dunno how you could call her the same as any other ADC.
you're the one bringing it up soda...
yeah i can see the draven comparison, that's a good point. she's sort of a middle of the spectrum, where on the further end of the weird are like jhin and ezreal compared to like the more traditional extreme caitlyn/jinx
i guess my expectations coming from rakan where more on the jhin/ezreal side
Peanut Butter
Member
Xayah's the only ADC that I can't seem to kill when I play Rengar, so, naturally, I think she's a dumb champion.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
which one of you fucking nerds are playing destiny 2 beta
i was actually gonna ask noot today if he was into that game
can you build honey pools in destiny?
Ghost is Bad
Banned
no you cant build anything in that game.
Peanut Butter
Member
except your hate for Bungie
BreezyLimbo
Banned
What are you on, Ivern is one of the better designs Riot has ever done
CLG is owned by MSG now so root for them :^)
As a Bronze player at that time, I cheesed my way to Silver by playing ton, and I mean ton of Sona (I think I have like 500 games with her). The moment I got to Silver, I tried to diversify, dropped back to Bronze 5.
Lesson: Just stick to that 1 champion and climb as much as you can
While his art design is fantastic, the problem with Ivern is that his kit is designed so specifically that it feels that his gimmick only works in 1 or 2 ways. His narrow designed playstyle feels like once that is cut off by the opposing team or nerfed by Riot, he is pretty much useless which guarantees a loss. Xayah and Rakan on the other hand provide so much flexibility and can be counter to so many other playstyles that they feel fresh and creative every time they are being played. I am way ore impressed by Rakan, because his engage, sustain abilities are some of the best abilities in the game, they don't feel overpowered, have hard counters yet feels dangerous and fun at the same time.
By some fucking twist of fate I played with a monstrous asshole the other day. He types in chat during champ select "Follow or Feed" and links his twitch stream. I ignore hi and so do my RL friends that play with me. Then we pop into the rift and he does the exact same thing and I tell him to **** off. Then he proceeds to int on nidalee all game. Just does camps and never ganks. Never with the team. He was intentionally avoid our team while going to fight the other team solo (ranging from 1v1 to 1v5). Game ended and I thought I was done with his shit. Turns out, this asshole somehow made front page on reddit and rightfully so, getting blown the fuck up.. Fuck this guy.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueofle...amer_feeding_if_teammates_dont_follow_him_on/
Please explain how Ivern is healthy for League of Legends? I'm curious to know your reasons.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueofle...amer_feeding_if_teammates_dont_follow_him_on/
Please explain how Ivern is healthy for League of Legends? I'm curious to know your reasons.
Stone Ocean
Member
I saw that lmao
Yeah, coercing people into supporting your stream will surely not get you banned before you make it big, no sir.
Ouch that really sucks, good that he's getting called out.
I think Ivern has an interesting niche, but it doesn't work if he's overtuned so he gets picked all day, of course. He should in a perfect world be a niche jungler for some specific comps.
He is. Players assume that because a champion stops them from getting a kill they thought they earned the champion must be broken. Same thing happened with Tahm, Lulu, now Janna. The numbers may have been overtuned but the kits are still well designed.
Riot trimmed some of the more obnoxious shit Ivern was capable of, he's in a good spot.
Agree tbh, overtuned ivern/lulu/etc suck all the joy out of playing but they're perfectly fine champs when brought back in line
He has a unique kit with capabilities nobody else has, clearly defined strengths and weaknesses, and obvious counterplay. The same way every other champion is healthy for League of Legends.
If you think Ivern is not healthy you should consider, like, justifying your perspective!
i think sometimes the issue with kill preventers is that the effort it takes to save someone is less than the effort it takes to kill them, which in general incentivizes passive play and/or is boring to watch
spamming shields on janna/lulu is not very difficult to do yet super frustrating for the player being the aggressor since that's all they do
i think zilean is a decent example of a saving mechanic that takes a bit more effort to use since it's so timing based and it has that extra mechanic of like now our team is gonna de-focus the zilean ulted enemy until it wears off
something like that
Sorry but uniqueness in and of itself is not an indicator for a good champion. Neither is having clearly defined strengths and weaknesses. These factors in a vacuum does not make a good champion. We can't create champions in a vacuum and in the same vein of creating an ability in a vacuum. There has to be context in place. For Ivern, he is unique from other junglers. There are some neat ideas. But unfortunately, he is not a champion that fits well in terms of balance making it difficult to conceptualize, and his itemization is different from a lot of junglers as well which makes it troublesome. Champions like Ivern are make or break and as sad as it makes me that champions are unique like Ivern but in terms of the play ecosystem, it's an absolute nightmare. I don't like these types of champions in League of Legends.
"kayos90 doesn't like this champion" is not a good metric for which champions are healthy for League of Legends.
That's not what I wrote if you actually read my post. Thanks for setting a new standard.
I read your post and it said nothing.
"He has unique itemization." Not a health concern for the game.
"He is hard to balance." Not really clear that this is true.
"It's a nightmare in terms of the play ecosystem." Meaningless dribble.
"I don't like him" is the closest you got to an argument!
Cool. Thanks for your reductive argumentation.
Ghost is Bad
Banned
whos naota
You're literally taking every little statement I'm saying and putting it in a vacuum. I guess it's a bit poetic that the point I'm trying to make is made within your own argumentation. That being said unique itemization path that varies quite a bit from other junglers out there makes it hard to balance. Why? Because those items might be used by other champions in other roles and therefore might mean balance changes or some tuning on the champ which would cause balancing troubles. It's like having a single kid in the class that doesn't get a math problem. It's troublesome deal with this challenge because you either change the course so the kid gets it, or you babysit the kid, or you just leave him in the dust. Outliers like this create an unhealthy ecosystem and the time invested into building a champion like this make one question if it was worth the time to create a champion in the first place.
Same as above
Same as above
This is a reductive summary that's not even an accurate representation of the argument I'm making. If this is what you gleamed from it then I honestly feel bad for you.
Yeah, you're definitely being a bit harsh Naota.
I would mostly argue that all new champions run into problems like this -- they are going to have their own preferred items, those items are going to be good or bad, and there's going to be a whole interplay between champion power and item power. ADCs are the closest you get to being an exception to this because they're built around taking advantage of a specific synergy that only exists in a family of items built explicitly for them, which wasn't always true, and even today some of them build Youmuu's or BORK.
The reason I listed the specific issues I did in my original response -- counterplay, defined strengths and weaknesses, and uniqueness -- are because those are the things Riot looks for in new champions. I happen to agree with them that those are the critical requirements for a champion to be healthy for the game. I don't think it is reasonable to simply discount them as key indicators as I feel that you have.
It is definitely possible that Ivern is too feast-or-famine in terms of his balance points -- this happens all the time, Ryze being the classic example. It is kind of notable to me that nobody is playing Ivern in an era of supporty junglers, but maybe I misunderstand what he's good at. But that doesn't necessarily make him bad for the game. It would be bad if he were constantly overpowered!
Basically, if you believe he's bad for the game, that's fine. I would like to clearly understand what detrimental effect you think he will have on the rest of the design of League of Legends, such that the game becomes less fun and less interesting. To me, that's what health of the game means. It's not clear to me that "they have to design around him existing" is sufficient -- that is a cost of every new champion they create. What makes Ivern uniquely problematic?
??
Ivern has some of the cleanest kit balancing levers in the game. You can trim his power back at exactly the spot you want.
Ex.) Jungler A is clearing too quickly. So you reduce his damage, but now you've also hit his PvP and minionwave clearing power as well, and those may have been fine.
Ivern is clearing too quickly. Increase the time it takes to cap a camp or the timer of fully apply the grove. No impact on PvP, minions, objectives, etc.
Ivern's issues were actually caused by S7 changes that favoured him in every single way and support itemization being overtuned. Neither of those has anything to do with the base design of the kit.
The only genuinely fucked up thing was the original range of his bushes and the original way they could obscure objective vision.
Fair enough. But the other side of that equation is that the numbers on these abilities currently take into account the ease of use. If we add skill expression to these "saving" abilities, then I'd expect some power put back into them.
I'm cynical as hell, so I assume people would bitch at a non-guaranteed 260 base shield as much as a guaranteed 200 base shield. Some players, and in my opinion there's lots of them, feel entitled to kills (LS whiners), CS, tower gold, etc. No amount of skill expression would make them shut up.
I'm not against it in the slightest, but like I said the numbers are tuned for their application. Gimme some power back and I'll gladly make that trade.
On the subject, it is rather odd that in the many years I've played this game, there's still one shield skill shot that I can think off and it was there before I started playing: Lux.
Ivern has some of the cleanest kit balancing levers in the game. You can trim his power back at exactly the spot you want.
Ex.) Jungler A is clearing too quickly. So you reduce his damage, but now you've also hit his PvP and minionwave clearing power as well, and those may have been fine.
Ivern is clearing too quickly. Increase the time it takes to cap a camp or the timer of fully apply the grove. No impact on PvP, minions, objectives, etc.
Ivern's issues were actually caused by S7 changes that favoured him in every single way and support itemization being overtuned. Neither of those has anything to do with the base design of the kit.
The only genuinely fucked up thing was the original range of his bushes and the original way they could obscure objective vision.
Fair enough. But the other side of that equation is that the numbers on these abilities currently take into account the ease of use. If we add skill expression to these "saving" abilities, then I'd expect some power put back into them.
I'm cynical as hell, so I assume people would bitch at a non-guaranteed 260 base shield as much as a guaranteed 200 base shield. Some players, and in my opinion there's lots of them, feel entitled to kills (LS whiners), CS, tower gold, etc. No amount of skill expression would make them shut up.
I'm not against it in the slightest, but like I said the numbers are tuned for their application. Gimme some power back and I'll gladly make that trade.
On the subject, it is rather odd that in the many years I've played this game, there's still one shield skill shot that I can think off and it was there before I started playing: Lux.
Reivaxe
Member
I think they all need a full VGU.
Them plus Mace Guy, Da Bear, Garen and Press-R-Dont-Die Kayle/ Tryndamere.
And Morg cause she's ugly af and is apparently gonna be reworked with Kayle at the same time when ever that happens.
Those are my most wanted full VGU champs. I do think they need to rework Kindred to actually be a "they" champ ... so not a full rework but a big one.
i'm so glad feversea is back
idk, like everything it's often not about a single ability, it's not that janna's shield is too strong, is that the champion hollistically takes little effort to play well, or has a lot of hidden power, or encourages passive playstyles or whatever
and like you said if you add skill expression and skill requirements to an ability you really get to unlock their potential to be way more satisfying to use. that's how abilities like thresh's lantern or braum's shield get to be "game breaking" while at the same time fair to play against. they're still gonna be frustrating but it's way easier to tell when someone outplayed you with a thresh lantern than when someone outplayed you with anything on janna's kit heh
that being said these spells are "game breaking" for a reason, and champions like thresh or braum have had a troubled balance history but at the same time who's janna to talk lol
as far as inven is concerned, i think a lot of his problems have been smoothed out but i haven't seen an inven in like ages so can't tell what state he's in. i think his kit is mostly ok tho his q feels like a really wonky spell for him to have. idk