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Lebron James stares down Michael Jordan during Game 3 against the Bobcats

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The Albatross said:
and
If you look at the numbers there, the fact that Jordan scored 1900 fewer points than Lebron and Kobe at 28, despite having four fewer years in the NBA than they did at that age is insane. Beyond that is the fact of the playoff numbers... Kobe was brought onto one of the most dominant teams in the NBA in 1996, with Shaq, Derek Fisher, and Robert Horry... They were one of the best overall teams in the NBA the year he joined. Jordan, on the other hand, was on a weak bulls team that was trash before joining, and managed to make the playoffs his first three years but were bumped out by the '85 Celtics (arguably one of the greatest basketball teams of all time), the Celtics again the next year, and then Detroit. Lebron, though, to his credit, built Cleveland into the playoff team that they were... That's all him. Of course, his championships didn't come until a team was procured in Miami, but w/e, we're all over that.
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That 96 Lakers team is alot different from the 95 one. Shaq, Horry, and Kobe were all brought in that year.
 
hucast21 said:
This man gets it. It also applies to Floyd Mayweather in boxing.
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This is the most talent the league has seen since the mid to late 80's. Michael Jordan's main competition in the East was John Starks and Reggie Miller in the East and Clyde Drexler and Charles Barkley in the West. The only guy among those 4 who would be in the top 10 in the current NBA is Barkley.

Anybody who thinks the league is weak in talent these days are the same type of people who believe that the PS1 era was the best in gaming and it's likely for the same reason - because they were 10 years old when it happened.
 
JesseEwiak said:
This is the most talent the league has seen since the mid to late 80's. Michael Jordan's main competition in the East was John Starks and Reggie Miller in the East and Clyde Drexler and Charles Barkley in the West. The only guy among those 4 who would be in the top 10 in the current NBA is Barkley.

Anybody who thinks the league is weak in talent these days are the same type of people who believe that the PS1 era was the best in gaming and it's likely for the same reason - because they were 10 years old when it happened.
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Don't be hating on Drexler. Prime Drexler would kill in this league.
 
JesseEwiak said:
This is the most talent the league has seen since the mid to late 80's. Michael Jordan's main competition in the East was John Starks and Reggie Miller in the East and Clyde Drexler and Charles Barkley in the West. The only guy among those 4 who would be in the top 10 in the current NBA is Barkley.

Anybody who thinks the league is weak in talent these days are the same type of people who believe that the PS1 era was the best in gaming and it's likely for the same reason - because they were 10 years old when it happened.
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You are going to hurt a lot of feelings with that one, but its true. The league has gotten worse in terms of foul calls and physical play for sure.

But its not a wasteland of talent compared to the late 80's and 90's at ALL. No fucking idea where these dudes come up with this shit. It must clearly be the legend of MJ thats making people say this shit.
 
neptunes said:
579107_351264634992038_221926762_n.jpg
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This is missing 'Flops'. Was MJ a flopper like Lebron? I'm too casual a fan to remember what they put up with back then.

I didn't think of the Clippers story though, maybe there's some shit there. I could see MJ not giving a fuck about what kind of racist stuff that crusty old dude gets up to.
 
Speaking of funny basketball gifs, does anyone have that one where that dude is just laying there dead in the middle of the court and everyone is just playing around him?
 
Jack Remington said:
Kobe at his 2006 peak was just as good as current LeBron and would likely beat him 1x1 without much trouble.

It's really a shame he didn't have a better supporting cast. IMO, if you give 2005-2007 Kobe a supporting cast on par with what he had in 2009, they chip at least 2 of those years, if not all three.
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You know that doesn't make him a better basketball player right?

Basketball is a sport played with two teams of five people on a court with a hoop at each end.

If you try and determine who the better player is by putting them against in each in one on one, you're completely ignoring a huge amount of what it takes to be a good basketball player. You know, things like passing the ball to a teammate. Or help defence. Or transition scoring. Or transition defence. Or spacing. Or setting screens. Or a million other things that take place in an actual game of basketball that don't occur in a one-on-one, all of which Lebron is better at than Kobe.
 
chicagocubsfan said:
Yeah LeBron is so tough, he only gets clowned by our 36 year old back up center lol.
lebronshove.gif
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Umm Lebron throw his big butt on the ground, and he pushed LeBron when he wasnt looking, it would be stupid for LeBron to get up and fight Naz and get tossed out a playoff game for a backup center
 
legend166 said:
You know that doesn't make him a better basketball player right?

Basketball is a sport played with two teams of five people on a court with a hoop at each end.

If you try and determine who the better player is by putting them against in each in one on one, you're completely ignoring a huge amount of what it takes to be a good basketball player. You know, things like passing the ball to a teammate. Or help defence. Or transition scoring. Or transition defence. Or spacing. Or setting screens. Or a million other things that take place in an actual game of basketball that don't occur in a one-on-one, all of which Lebron is better at than Kobe.
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Sure, but a lot of the discussion on the first few pages was whether LeBron could beat Michael Jordan at his peak in a game of 1x1, and Kobe also got lumped in there at some point, and I was responding to that.

Leaving 2006 Kobe aside, I also really don't see LeBron beating 1988 Jordan in that setting.

It's arguable whether LeBron is as effective an all-around player as Jordan at his best. I'd say no, but the gap is much smaller than it was a few years ago.
 
chicagocubsfan said:
I doubt the Heat were trying to throw the superstar Nazr Mohammed out of the game.
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No, but Lebron is smart, knows how to play the system and take advantage of a situation. Getting someone ejected forces your opponent to make adjustments regardless of who it is.
 
BruceLeeRoy said:
Of course Jordan doesn't like Lebron he is everything in a player a guy like Jordan would despise.
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Good then for James.

Jordan was a piece of shit person who complains about LBJ for trying to gain the same advantages Jordan enjoyed on the Bulls.

The myth of Jordan is so perplexing. Greatest player of all time but people feel even that's not enough.

Basketball "discussion" centered who is better 1 on 1 is probably the dumbest of all. Who cares? That doesn't make one particular player better than another. And 1 type players could probably clown Kobe or LBJ in 1 on 1 match ups. Does that make them better?

LBJ isn't even the same type of player as Jordan. He isn't Kobe. But he is right now the best player on the planet and is putting together a great career which might stack up with Jordan at the end. And while MJ was the greatest IMO, there are things LBJ does that far more effective then Jordan. Things like passing, blocking, and being overall more efficient.

You would think after making 3 straight finals, winning 2, and being league MVP 4 times the talk about James being soft or not clutch would finally be squashed by James haters seem to never let facts and reality get in their way. Delusional.
 
effzee said:
Good then for James.

Jordan was a piece of shit person who complains about LBJ for trying to gain the same advantages Jordan enjoyed on the Bulls.

The myth of Jordan is so perplexing. Greatest player of all time but people feel even that's not enough.

Basketball "discussion" centered who is better 1 on 1 is probably the dumbest of all. Who cares? That doesn't make one particular player better than another. And 1 type players could probably clown Kobe or LBJ in 1 on 1 match ups. Does that make them better?

LBJ isn't even the same type of player as Jordan. He isn't Kobe. But he is right now the best player on the planet and is putting together a great career which might stack up with Jordan at the end. And while MJ was the greatest IMO, there are things LBJ does that far more effective then Jordan. Things like passing, blocking, and being overall more efficient.

You would think after making 3 straight finals, winning 2, and being league MVP 4 times the talk about James being soft or not clutch would finally be squashed by James haters seem to never let facts and reality get in their way. Delusional.
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In crunch time, Jordan and Kobe wanted the ball in their hands. Lebron wanted it...in Ray Allen's.
 
reggieandTFE said:
In crunch time, Jordan and Kobe wanted the ball in their hands. Lebron wanted it...in Ray Allen's.
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So, the fact he's a smart player is a detriment to him? Guess what, I want the ball in Ray Allen's hands too if he's open in the corner because he's going to be able to hit that shot when he's fifty.

Also, Steve Kerr. John Paxson. And so on.
 
Lebron is incredible. Jordan is the GOAT.

Bleacher Report Article

Season stats covering prime eras for each while playing for championship caliber teams:

JordanJamesregularseasonstats._crop_exact.png


Edge - Jordan

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Shooting efficiency during same period:

Jordanvs.Jamesshooting_crop_exact.png


Edge - James*

article said:
The percentages even things out a bit. Jordan may have better scoring totals, but James has been historically efficient with his shots. In fact, this year, his true shooting percentage (a shooting percentage which takes into account two-point shots, three-point shots and free-throw attempts) is 68.1 percent, the highest in history for a player with a usage percentage (the percent of possessions a player uses while on the court) over 25 percent.

By comparison, Jordan’s career high is just 61.4 percent.

On the other hand, Jordan played mostly under a different set of rules, as I discuss in detail here. It’s easier for James to be efficient now than it was for Jordan then.

But those rules also impact the pace of the game, slowing it down and lowering James' accrued numbers slightly.

James has a PER of 29.8 over the span, Jordan 30.1. Jordan has a very slight edge, but hardly one which separates him from James.
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Playoff Comparison

jordanjamesplayofftotals_crop_exact.png


Edge - Jordan

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Playoff shooting percentages:

jordanjamesplayoffpercents_crop_exact.png


Edge - slightly Jordan

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Finals Comparison:

finalstotals_crop_exact.png


Edge - Jordan

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Finals Shooting

jordanjamesfinalsshooting_crop_exact.png


Edge - Jordan



Michael Jordan - Could he really score 50 with the hand check rule in place? (Image links are unfortunately broken so you have to read the analysis..but a few bits:

There are actually two rules which have changed that have made the game different. First there’s what is commonly referred to as, “the hand-check rule” and the other is the change in allowing for zone defense. Both rulings have their own impact.

In the 2004-05 season the NBA changed the rules and enforcement in regards to hand checks and the impact of that is clearly seen by viewing it in the context of what has occurred in the NBA since then.

Michael Jordan never played with the same type of hand-check rule as the game is called today.

This gave the defender two advantages. One, he could actually slow him down a bit with his hand. Second, with more athletic players who could explode to the basket, it meant they could “feel” which way the player was going.

In an interest to be fair on this, I sought to consider what would be a fair way to measure, statistically which side of the argument was true.

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What we can say though is that the theory that the hand check rule has steered the league more towards ball handlers who can penetrate and create their own shots is entirely consistent with the data, and the notion that the hand check rule has had little to no effect is not.

In an interest to be fair on this, I sought to consider what would be a fair way to measure, statistically which side of the argument was true.

Since the basis of the argument is that the hand check rule “opens up the game” meaning it allows perimeter players more opportunity, there should be three things that are visible if the argument is true.

First, there should be a rise in unassisted field goals. Second, there should be a rise in “big games” from perimeter-style players. Third, there should be a rise in the importance of “penetration” players in the NBA.
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(On unassisted field goals) :

Prior to his “retirement” he was virtually bringing down the average himself. The year 1992 and 1993 were the two lowest over the time frame covered and six of the seven lowest year in the 20 prior to the hand check rule were the vintage Jordan days where he sliced through traffic and finished at the rim.

The six years with the lowest assist to field goal ratio in the NBA since 1985 are the years since the hand check rule was imposed. Furthermore, from 1985, the cumulative ratio was 0.604.

Over the time frame since then, it has been 0.577, constituting about a 5 percent increase in unassisted field goals since the hand check rule was imposed.

The theory the hand check rule has steered the league more towards ball handlers who can penetrate and create their own shots is entirely consistent with the data, and the notion that the hand check rule has had little to no effect is not.
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Conclusion - Hand Check rules have allowed for more unassisted shots. This would benefit players like Jordan and Lebron in this era. [/quote]

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Dominant scoring games (50 pts or greater) before and after rule changes:

The next thing I wanted to look at was the number of “big games” that perimeter players had over each time frame.

I chose 50-point games because that’s the number that Pippen stated and the one that raised all the controversy.

I went through each game and took note of whether the player was a “post” player who scored his points the traditional way of getting the ball passed to him inside or a perimeter player who either scored from the outside or drove the ball inside. In other words, did he fit the Jordan model of player?

What you see above is the number of 50-point games per year scored on average before and after the hand check rule started to be enforced. As you can see, the number has climbed by 80 percent.

The theory that the hand-check rule is making it easier for the perimeter big game is consistent with what’s actually been happening.

What’s even more amazing is if you adjust the stats for Kobe and MJ, who have accounted for 55 of the 50 point games between them. Kobe had 24, Jordan had 31. That means that Jordan and Kobe combine for 40 percent of all 50-point games by perimeter players in the last 26 seasons.

If we take out those games and look at the difference before and after, we see an even larger difference. That’s more than double the number of 50-point games per year by perimeter players!

This again, suggests the conclusion that Bryant has benefited from the rule change.
Incidentally, just as an aside, I noticed Jordan had 49-point games on 10 different occasions.

Not only has the number of 50-point games gone up by perimeter players gone up, the number of post players that have 50-point games has gone down, both in real terms and percentages.

In fact, since the NBA began enforcing the hand-check rule, there’s been only four 50-point games by low post scorers.

This indicates that there’s been a shift in the actual game. The emphasis has gone through a gradual and consistent shift from being a low-post game to being a perimeter game over the course of the NBA’s history, from widening the lane, to instituting the three-point line to instituting and then enforcing the hand check rule.

Even instituting the zone defense, particularly with the defensive three-second rule, has pushed the importance of the perimeter game. One of the weaknesses of zone defense is that they are prone to players who are able to penetrate and split the zone.

Zone defenses are often cited as making things more difficult, but it’s a misunderstanding. First, the reality is that scoring has gone up since the institution of it, but more important than how much scoring there is, is who is doing the scoring.

The above evidence indicates a push towards the perimeter and less on low post scoring. The big games are no longer coming from the Wilt Chamberlains and Kareem Abdul-Jabbars of the NBA, but the Kobe Bryants and LeBron Jameses.
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Conclusion: Hand check rule has contributed to an 80% increase in 50+ point games. This benefits Lebron and Kobe.

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Increased Importance of perimeter players:

... well, I think I've quoted enough. The conclusion here being that perimeter players are far more important than big men in this new rules era. This would also benefit players like Kobe and Lebron.

Just wanted to compare the stats of a prime Jordan pre-championship caliber team through the end of his prime (after the Bulls-Suns finals in 1993) to a comparable stretch for Lebron that includes his third season through the current one.

Jordan:

ORICTsC.png


Lebron:

stSPiXa.png



Lebron certainly has some advantages that aren't a result of rule changes, but certain things like shot efficiency certainly are propped up in this new era. At least for players with the talent of Lebron, Kobe, Wade, and Kevin Durant. I'd hate to see Carmelo's stats in the older NBA.

I really would love to see the numbers Jordan could put up in the modern era.

Conclusion: Jordan GOAT. Lebron just staring down an old man.
 
BruceLeeRoy said:
Your right flopping definitely is up there with the steel nerves that it takes to lead your team in the final seconds of the game.
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If it was 1992, everybody here currently crowning Jordan as some unassailable GOAT who will never be touched would be whining the refs were too deferential to him.
 
Neffarias_Bredd said:
You might want to read my post again, because I never even implied that
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Jordan actually did try to use a little deception from time to time to get a call to go his way but never to the level that LBJ employs it. Its a shameful aspect to his game and one him and Wade actually count on. The more desperate the game starts to go for him the more outlandish his acting gets.

The point is Jordan never saw flopping as the route to bring a game back. He knew staying calm and taking control of the game was how to win.
 
BruceLeeRoy said:
Jordan actually did try to use a little deception from time to time to get a call to go his way but never to the level that LBJ employs it. Its a shameful aspect to his game and one him and Wade actually count on. The more desperate the game starts to go for him the more outlandish his acting gets.

The point is Jordan never saw flopping as the route to bring a game back. He knew staying calm and taking control of the game was how to win.
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Ok. I was just pointing out how I thought it was hypocritical for people to use a buzz statement like "Jordan did whatever it took to win" and then slam Lebron for flopping, which in my mind is part of doing whatever it takes to win. I wasn't making some underhanded statement about the merits of flopping or comparing Lebron and Jordan's levels of flopping
 
Lebron has toned down the flops since he stopped getting the calls for it. He realized that he also wasn't getting legitimate calls for getting hacked every time he goes for the basket.
 
JesseEwiak said:
This is the most talent the league has seen since the mid to late 80's. Michael Jordan's main competition in the East was John Starks and Reggie Miller in the East and Clyde Drexler and Charles Barkley in the West. The only guy among those 4 who would be in the top 10 in the current NBA is Barkley.

Anybody who thinks the league is weak in talent these days are the same type of people who believe that the PS1 era was the best in gaming and it's likely for the same reason - because they were 10 years old when it happened.
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LOL, wtf? You can't compare the talent of the 80s/90s to now, it's not even a contest.

Jordan had to go through Magic's Lakers to win his first championship. Lets name all the talent that Jordan played against during his career:

-Magic (Hall of Famer)
-Kareem (Hall of Famer)
-James Worthy (Hall of Famer)
-Bird (Hall of Famer)
-McHale (Hall of Famer)
-Dominique Wilkins (Hall of Famer)
-Isiah Thomas (Hall of Famer)
-Joe Dumars (Hall of Famer)
-Denns Rodman (Hall of Famer)
-Charles Barkley (Hall of Famer)
-Bill Lambeer
-David Robinson (Hall of Famer)
-Patrick Ewing (Hall of Famer)
-John Starks
-Reggie Miller (Hall of Famer)
-Mitch Richmond (Hall of Famer)
-Clyde Drexler (Hall of Famer)
-Gary Payton (Hall of Famer)
-Glen Rice
-Mutombo
-Shawn Kemp
-Karl Malone (Hall of Famer)
-John Stockton (Hall of Famer)
-Latrell Sprewell
-Dennis Johnson (Hall of Famer)
-Chris Mullin (Hall of Famer)
-Tim Hardaway
-Alonzo Mourning (Hall of Famer)
-Olajuwon (Hall of Famer)
-Shaq (Future Hall of Famer)
-Penny Hardaway
-Grant Hill
-Allen Iverson (Future Hall of Famer)
-Kevin Johnson

I'll give one thing the talent these days have over compared to the talent of the 80s/90s, they sure now how to take steroids. LeBron is the perfect example.
 
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