Rapping Granny
Banned
That looks like a great porno.
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LeBron James Vogue cover.. RACIST?
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kame-sennin
Member
Favre4435 said:
I think this issue is a bit too complex for gaf. Most posters here can't understand implicit meaning. There's also a lot knee jerk reactions whenever there are accusations of racism, or even discussion over potentially racist themes - which I think is all this article is about. I personally don't think the photographer was a racist. But is she tapping into outdated, potentially racist, pop culture imagery? I think so. Google search the sculpture referenced in the article - Gorilla Carrying Off a Woman, - the images that come up definitely bare a resemblance to the photo, and it would be naive to think an artist such as Leibovitz had never seen them. Again, is she consciously referencing them? I doubt it. But there is a reason to be image conscious when dealing with blacks because they have been portrayed so negatively in media for so long.
I think you are making it complex. if no one says anything, no one cares. Do you think the average person is going to research Google after seeing the cover? By blowing up racial connotations out of innocent material, it fuels discussions that are pointess and redundant.kame-sennin said:
Absinthe (Permed)
Banned
lil smoke said:
Yes. This isn't even an issue if he was holding a white woman. It's a black man holding a white woman and people scramble, dig, and search for reasons to say it's racist.
kame-sennin said:
I find that a bit offensive to tell you the truth.
If someone is taking a picture of me I don't want to be restricted from what i can or can't do because the photographer doesn't want to piss off a white journalist who thinks there may be some racial connotations with my photo.
Like i said he looks like an athlete in an "extreme" pose. Flexing his muscles and whatnot. I see nothing wrong with it.
dustytruly
Member
why is this thread still active?.. this should be a non-issue... the picture is not offensive and people are just making a big deal about it because he's with some little white chick... and making an "extreme" pose...
the fact that we can talk about it for so long just adds fuel to the fire... if no one cared there'd be no one to tell that he looks like some crazy tarzan/king kong/whatever the fuck else you can cook up to make black people look bad.
the fact that we can talk about it for so long just adds fuel to the fire... if no one cared there'd be no one to tell that he looks like some crazy tarzan/king kong/whatever the fuck else you can cook up to make black people look bad.
NextGenitals
Banned
Lebron james is one of the most beautiful people on earth?
:lol :lol :lol :lol
:lol :lol :lol :lol
kame-sennin
Member
Threi said:
I would absolutely agree that that sucks. There's even a term for it; "the burden of representation". The fact is, there are way more whites on television, in movies, ect, than blacks. And blacks have historically been portrayed negatively. The consequence of this is that some people feel that blacks who do appear in the media should represent a positive image. Is it unfair that a white actor can play a criminal in a movie with no thought whatsoever, but a black actor has to consider what impression he or she would give off in the same situation? Absolutely, but whites have been the dominant subjects of all forms of American media, and they are also the majority of the population. No one is going to see a white man in a movie robbing a bank, and think white people are thieves. Blacks on the other hand, are confronted with the burden of representation. Knowing that blacks are underrepresented in popular media, knowing that many of the portrayals that exist are negative or stereotypical, what does one do?
I'm not saying its right. I'm not even saying that black people should refrain from taking provocative roles or provocative photos like this one. But it is something that has to be taken into consideration. And I think people need to be more understanding as to why things like this bother people.
kame-sennin
Member
lil smoke said:
Well, people who study media and art would get the reference immediately. I did, as did the art critic who made this an issue. Maybe you have a point. If the average person isn't bothered by this, then elitists should just let it be, as drawing attention to these issues raises more problems than it solves. However, it can be argued that these things are part of the American people's subconscious; that we are all aware of the implicit connotation of a powerful black man gripping a slender blond-haired white woman. To the point, one might argue that it is necessary to criticize the replication of negative racial imagery.
Otheradam said:
Critique of media is something that is HORRIBLY overlooked/dismissed. There is plenty of time and need to discuss small stuff like this because small stuff contributes to bigger stuff and the fact is pop culture molds many of our beliefs so looking at stuff in pop culture with a critical eye is important, however insignificant it might seem.
RumFore said:
Is there anything that doesn't upset white people?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=256710
Really funny to see the double standards when it doesn't apply to you.
White people being portrayed in a stereotypical way. Racist.
Black people being portrayed in a stereotypical way. Black people are overreacting.
Gotcha.
And LOL @ "black beast."
Anasui Kishibe
Banned
Rapping Granny said:
I've seen one with Jasmine Tame and this enormous black guy called Mr Marcus..oh boy, it's some serious shit. Girl is totally a wild pork
/end of ot
Absinthe (Permed)
Banned
Lazy vs Crazy said:
People that sit around and search for these things have absolutely no life whatsoever. It's a shame that she is paid to write what is essentially an opinion piece with no backing whatsoever.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
This probably means Scoop Jackson won't write about it though, which is unfortunate because that article has the potential to be interesting.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Lazy vs Crazy said:
Between this, the other article, and the one in the OP, I can really see where they are coming from. lol. I blame the fact that I just skimmed over the OP, but, they do have some truth to them.
Absinthe said:
It's not even a search though. The imagery itself isn't even subtle, in the slightest, and her examples aren't exactly niche and hidden away from the public eye. The backing is in the history of the presentation of black athletes, and her examples demonstrate that she is correct in her main observation. Whether you agree with her findings or not is up to personal opinion of course, but, she did her research.
I still side with it being a tacky ass picture, and not overly racist, but, if you look at it from a non kneejerk perspective, the stereotypes sure as hell are there. *shrugs*
Absinthe (Permed)
Banned
Does she honestly think that Lebron is going to REGRET choosing that picture to put on the cover? This is receiving a lot of attention and I have no doubt that more issues will be sold due to this "controversy" (it's in quotation marks because I fail to see what is so controversial about this whole thing). He's laughing it up and probably planning on doing a similar one.
Right. 3% of people can make a reference to anything! Anything can be twisted into a connotation might a person try hard enough.kame-sennin said:
I mean are you that insecure? (I don't mean YOU, but in general) Does it make you feel less of a person to see the image? Am I less of a black man? Why do people worry about this stuff? It doesn't affect my quality of life, seeing a black man and a white woman in any pose. I don't care if a white woman says "lynch". Move the fuck on and worry about REAL racism. Bringing up some reference that no one is aware of, only brings irrleveant subject matter and clouds up an already pointess discussion.
kame-sennin
Member
Absinthe said:
Did you read the article. She cited plenty of historical examples of undeniably racist imagery and argued that the Vogue cover bares a striking resemblance. I have no problem with you disagreeing with the author, but I think it's unfair to argue that she has no backing, when her article was well-researched.
TemplaerDude
Member
holy shit can't people calm the fuck down these days? it's a cool fucking pic.
Absinthe (Permed)
Banned
kame-sennin said:
Racist imagery in itself is completely subjective. When I saw the King Kong remake not once did I think, "Oh, they're clearly making a parallel between black brutes and white women." Do you want to know why? Because it is fiction. It's a movie and I don't try to create fables in my head to spark any kind of controversy. What he's doing is the "athletic pose" that has been mentioned several times. White athletes do it as well. I guess black athletes should shy away from such acts on the court or field because it might make them look bad. The whole thing is just silly.
Most people are going to look at that and see it for exactly what it is: and athlete posing with an model. Other people, with boring lives and some sort of twisted agenda, are going to ascribe racial stereotypes to something that was more than likely a fun photo shoot and a historic landmark for a black man.
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
lil smoke said:
The fact of the matter is, it is real racism(not really talking about this). If it affects you or not is an entirely different discussion. People critique the hell out of art, always have and always will, and this was no different. Should be people let stuff like this get to them? Depends on how you feel about others being presented in a light which could possibly be skewed as negative or not, and, if you're black and play sports, then, nine times out of ten its going to affect the perceived image of your persona, whether you like it or not. Why do you think they tried that dress code out in the NBA?
To live and not bother with something directly affecting you, or, call racism out only at it's strongest?
Even if there was a widely acknowledgeable deliberate connotation, I'd accept it as conceptual, artistic.. and then I'd move on about my day. Controversy is fine. I enjoy a mature discussion about race, gender, etc.Absinthe said:
People who are insulted by this stuff, I imagine are shallow people overall.
kame-sennin
Member
lil smoke said:
My skin's too thick to actually be hurt by an image like this, especially knowing that there was not an intention to be overtly racist. However, these things do remind me of a time when people like me were viewed as less than human. Furthermore, when tired stereotypes are still carried out in modern media, it makes me wonder how far we've come. I think this poster said it best:
Lelielle said:
As to your first point,
I think this is completely unfair. I don't think anything about this image has been twisted. It is clearly evocative of a common stereotype - the black "brute" and the white damsel - watch King Kong or The Birth of a Nation. Or look at the sculpture referenced in the original article:lil smoke said:
I know people are going to be pissed that I made this comparison. But this is the specific work that people have argued "inspired" the Vogue cover. I think we have to realize that there is a long history of racially charged imagery, and that imagery is still part of our collective subconscious today. Whenever it comes up, there are going to be people that object to it, and I think it's there right to do so.
Absinthe (Permed)
Banned
There is absolutely no basis for that claim though. Has anyone interviewed the person that did the photo shoot? Did he or she specifically mention that those images influenced her shoot? What if the person that did the shoot isn't even aware of such racial stereotyping (this is very possible)? It's baseless speculation that those images influenced the shoot.
This would be a NON ISSUE if people looked at the cover and thought, "Eh, athlete and model," instead of "Black athlete and white model."
This would be a NON ISSUE if people looked at the cover and thought, "Eh, athlete and model," instead of "Black athlete and white model."
kame-sennin
Member
Absinthe said:
I specifically said that I didn't think the artist was racist, and that these images are part of our subconscious minds.
Absinthe said:
I'm pretty sure the director of King Kong admitted it was an allegory to slavery. Even if he didn't, would one look at Birth of a Nation and assume it's just historical fiction?
Absinthe said:
See my post on the burden of representation. Black athletes don't have to do anything, but regaurdless, we all know that minorities are judged differently - by both whites and non-whites. It's obviously not fair, but it is reality.
Absinthe said:
Why the ad homonym?
Dark Octave
Banned
:lol I thought nothing of it at first. Just Lebron James with some woman on the cover of a magazine. But the more I see this pic, and now this guy posted a statue of King Kong (or whatever) in a similar pose, I have to admit that the idea that this statue could have been an inspiration for the magazine cover doesn't sound too far fetched. My better judgment won't allow me to believe it though.
Clearly?kame-sennin said:
No. Not to me. To me, the art here is the art of contrast. The contrast between black brute and white damsel is a contrast in form and character, but not necessarily race. It can be, if you want it to be. Like I said, people will enhance anything with their own connotations, just so it fits their own ideals. I studied art for 8 years, and personal perception is worth it's own thread in an art forum.
And what if the idea was inspired? So what? I'm still not offended. I stand by my statement of how I feel about people who are offended by such things... from experience.Dark Octave said:
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Absinthe said:
Annie Leibovitz <--- She is a proffesional. I'm not in her head, but, if you honestly think that she wouldn't be aware of "such racial stereotyping" then you should probably look at what she does. Its her job to be aware of anything regarding matters as this. She wouldn't be shooting for the likes of Vanity Fair and Vogue if she didn't.
Edit: And that statue sure as hell looks like it was referenced. Right down to the hand hands. :lol
Absinthe (Permed)
Banned
This is so completely fruitless and a waste of my time. If you people want to continue sauntering through live overanalyzing every piece of art that comes your way then I truly feel sorry for you. It must suck not to be able to take things at face value.
kame-sennin
Member
lil smoke said:
But I'm not enhancing anything. I don't think anyone is going to argue that the sculpture and the photo are not similar. At that point, the debate becomes, "is this intentional, or is it a coincidence?". There are clearly people who do find it coincidental, and that's fine. But I don't think it's fair to take piece of art that bares a striking resemblance to (multiple) other works, and argue that people are distorting the image in order to create a commonality. I totally agree with you that many people will look at this and not find it racist. I just don't think there's anything wrong with someone - who is intimately familiar with racist media - immediately catching a reference (intentional or not) to a previous work, and pointing it out as such.
Same reason why business men wear suits to work? School uniforms.Oldschoolgamer said:
Personal dress can be distracting. Are you saying that was racist too? Because Stern hates hip hop and anything black related? I agree with the dress code... and again, the peolple that rejected it... I have a word I call people like that.
Fine. Point it out, but leave it there. The fact that this has become controversy is what upsets me. Not the fact that it's being discussed at all.kame-sennin said:
Enhancing.. perhaps not literal (and not a good word) but you are enhancing a connection to 'related' works of art. By establishing that connection, it's easier for you to ponder intent. By establishing that connection, others may begin to read more into the photo than they originally did. But they wouldn't have even thought about it, initially. That's how this stuff starts.
I agree, it's about intentional/coincidence. I guess I also don't give a shit. When discussing art (TV, movies, video games), this always comes up... and people move on to the next issue. They don't grate at it and make it personal.
aorange999
Member
lttP here but must say, I saw this on the newsstand first thing I thought was "hmm black dude menacing pose white women delicate", not too subtle there Vogue. Anyone arguing that its coincidental is conning themselves, that was purely posed and purely chosen for the imagery. I don't care though, its the way the world works.
Dark Octave
Banned
To be honest, I wouldn't be offended by it. Lebron obviously isn't offended by it, so why should I be. If it is inspired, maybe they were going after the theme or feel of that story/statue and not so much the "ape with white woman" part. But like I said earlier, I thought nothing of the whole image until it was brought to my attention.lil smoke said:
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
lil smoke said:
No, it wasn't the same reason business men wore suits to work. It was because of some of the players giving off the negative appearance of being thugs, because of attire and attitude(as well as the stuff about star players getting in trouble on the news...), and the NBA was trying to change that view surrounding the sport. Especially since attendance had wained so much over the years. Was it distracting? Yes, but also for reasons other than "look at my new 500 pair of jeans".
And, from you using the word too, are you implying that I'm calling this photograph racist? Because I already said it a few times in this topic that I didn't think it was.
As for schools, some of them work the same way.
kame-sennin
Member
lil smoke said:
Why? Do people not have the right to upset by this? We all agree that the photo is reminicent of racist imagery. Why can't people speak out against that? You may not feel that it is racist, that the photo is trying to put across a different point despite its similarities. But others feel different. Why is that a problem?
Discussing images in the media IS NOT FRIVOLOUS, its completely necessary and you can talk about serious issues and talk about the smaller stuff that relates to those issues like the pic .You don't have to forget about big racism problems to take a good look at stuff like that ..because its all a part of it and you can't tackle the larger problem without looking at all the little things that make it up and even the most progressive people have internalized racism, it comes from living in a racist society, and people may do racist things while not even being aware of it, which makes it all the more important to stop and think about stuff.
Some good reading:
http://www.mediaed.org/
-educate yourself!!
Some good reading:
http://www.mediaed.org/
-educate yourself!!
Yeah. Because negroe millionaires that wear baggy jeans and jewelry scare people... and people want to associate it with this and that... yes, people have established a direct relationship between friggin dyed cotton fabric that we put on our bodies to thug life, murderers, criminals. I know how certain people react, and Stern did not want to let their own ignorance dissaude them from spending a buck on his NBA.Oldschoolgamer said:
It is what it is. Sometimes it may seem I contradict myself because I happen to understand the things that I may not agree with. So lets revise that to say I am for and against that whole thing.
Did we all agree, though? I think I agree that some people will associate it with what they want to. Others enjoy the bliss of ignorance here. A few might be convinced of some relationship *(after it is brought up) but immediately move on. Me, I see art. Beauty and the Beast, basically. Juxtaposition of Contrasts and Extremes. Great subject matter.
For me, it is a problem to overanalyze it because I disagree with the notion that it affects a black person's livelihood. I do not think that this is an issue that anyone needs to be worried about. A black man is getting shot right now in the US. That is an issue. Not some magazine cover that may be construed as raaaacist, but is most likely innocent. This doesn't lead to any discussion about the plight of black folks. This is a trivial issue... this, to me is very much like an Al Sharpton issue.
Look, I enjoy the discussion, we don't have to agree.... it's probably a small detail that we are arguining anyways... intent. If you feel the photo is racist and needs to be brought up, then go for it, bro. Our experiences gauge our judgement, and I am no one to challenge that.
kame-sennin
Member
ShowDog said:
Do you deny the similarities between the magazine cover and the sculpture posted above, or are you just being willfully ignorant?
shuri said:
Are we so reactionary that holding a politically correct view is inherently bad?
kame-sennin
Member
lil smoke said:
Perception is reality. If we're portrayed as beasts, people will think of us that way. It's how slavery was justified, as well as a dozen other atrocities against a dozen other groups. Dehumanization is a key element of violent racist propaganda. You can't get people to torture or murder their enemy if they look at them as human. Fortunately, I think we're past that in America, and I don't think this is propaganda. But I still think it's important for minorities to look after their image if they want to improve the more important social conditions that you made reference to.
lil smoke said:
I already said that I don't.
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
Why are some of you giving Vogue and the photographer the benefit of the doubt? IMO they were clearly trying to stir sit up. Those of you saying 'oh its just a pic no big deal' are being totally dismissive of this nation's longstanding race relation problems and negative portrayal of Black males.
Some food for though. If Lebron were wearing a suit (this is a fashoin magazine after all right? ) in a less aggresive pose would this thread even exist?
Some food for though. If Lebron were wearing a suit (this is a fashoin magazine after all right? ) in a less aggresive pose would this thread even exist?
Like, for serious?
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