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Left Outside the Social-Justice Movement's Small Tent (The Atlantic)

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My definition of white supremacy IS the definition in every day language. If you can't understand concepts, systems, and ideas we're talking about on a basic level, why have them to begin with?
It absolutely is not. You ask the average person what what supremacy means, and they're going to say something about the KKK, skinhead groups, and the overt belief that the white race is superior and other races are inferior. What you won't get are people talking about how society has a subconscious bias towards things of white european heritage.

To note:
Wikipedia said:
White supremacy or white supremacism is a racist ideology centered upon the belief, and promotion of the belief, that white people are superior in certain characteristics, traits, and attributes to people of other racial backgrounds and that therefore white people should politically, economically and socially rule non-white people.

contrasted with how it describes academic usage of the term:
The term white supremacy is used in academic studies of racial power to denote a system of structural or societal racism which privileges white people over others, regardless of the presence or absence of racial hatred. White racial advantages occur both at a collective and an individual level (ceteris paribus, i. e., when individuals are compared that do not relevantly differ except in ethnicity). Legal scholar Frances Lee Ansley explains this definition as follows:
By "white supremacy" I do not mean to allude only to the self-conscious racism of white supremacist hate groups. I refer instead to a political, economic and cultural system in which whites overwhelmingly control power and material resources, conscious and unconscious ideas of white superiority and entitlement are widespread, and relations of white dominance and non-white subordination are daily reenacted across a broad array of institutions and social settings.​

This is similar to how the "prejudice+power" definition of racism is used in some circles, whereas the common dictionary definition doesn't have power as a necessary element, so you have people saying stuff like "black people can't be racist", using the word in the former sense, and people familiar with the word in the latter sense understandably object. Nobody's wrong, they're just using different meanings of the term.
 

KevinCow

Banned
I saw an argument on Facebook the other day. A girl posted that quote from that one movie about how black people can't be racist because only the people in power can be racist. So a guy came in and made an argument about prescriptivism vs. descriptivism. The girl and her friends responded by jumping all over the guy, calling him names ("trash," "fedora," "neckbeard"), accusing him of making arguments that he didn't actually make (they said, "You can't point to the dictionary definition because words evolve," which was funny because he was arguing for descriptivism, but none of them seemed to understand that), and telling him that he doesn't know what he's talking about and isn't allowed to discuss this topic because he's white. Then she blocked him. All of this despite the fact that he was being perfectly rational and civil throughout the entire discussion, even when he was being insulted.

That seemed to sum up what I've seen of the modern social justice movement pretty well. If someone disagrees with you, yell at them and insult them, then block them so you don't have to hear what they have to say anymore.

It's frustrating because I agree with a lot of their causes. Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, these things are all awful. But I don't want to get involved in any of it, because if I ever have a dissenting opinion, they'll probably just throw the fact that I'm a straight white male in my face and tell me that my opinion doesn't count.
 
It absolutely is not. You ask the average person what what supremacy means, and they're going to say something about the KKK, skinhead groups, and the overt belief that the white race is superior and other races are inferior. What you won't get are people talking about how society has a subconscious bias towards things of white european heritage.

To note:


contrasted with how it describes academic usage of the term:


This is similar to how the "prejudice+power" definition of racism is used in some circles, whereas the common dictionary definition doesn't have power as a necessary element, so you have people saying stuff like "black people can't be racist", using the word in the former sense, and people familiar with the word in the latter sense understandably object. Nobody's wrong, they're just using different meanings of the term.

I conceded you were right with an edit.
 

Sylas

Member
I saw an argument on Facebook the other day. A girl posted that quote from that one movie about how black people can't be racist because only the people in power can be racist. So a guy came in and made an argument about prescriptivism vs. descriptivism. The girl and her friends responded by jumping all over the guy, calling him names ("trash," "fedora," "neckbeard"), accusing him of making arguments that he didn't actually make (they said, "You can't point to the dictionary definition because words evolve," which was funny because he was arguing for descriptivism, but none of them seemed to understand that), and telling him that he doesn't know what he's talking about and isn't allowed to discuss this topic because he's white. Then she blocked him. All of this despite the fact that he was being perfectly rational and civil throughout the entire discussion, even when he was being insulted.

That seemed to sum up what I've seen of the modern social justice movement pretty well. If someone disagrees with you, yell at them and insult them, then block them so you don't have to hear what they have to say anymore.

It's frustrating because I agree with a lot of their causes. Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, these things are all awful. But I don't want to get involved in any of it, because if I ever have a dissenting opinion, they'll probably just throw the fact that I'm a straight white male in my face and tell me that my opinion doesn't count.

You can still get involved and if people being heavyhanded and annoying stops you from getting involved--well. I dunno. Agreeing with the cause is great, but wanting to help out is pretty different from agreeing with them.

It's really easy to find groups that aren't aggressive or screeching about things like the above. It's just a matter of putting in the work or surrounding yourself with people that aren't like that.I encourage you to seek out people that will get involved with you, or find local groups that aren't hostile and negative.

Very few people are like that in actuality, and they're incredibly easy to ignore.
 
I saw an argument on Facebook the other day. A girl posted that quote from that one movie about how black people can't be racist because only the people in power can be racist. So a guy came in and made an argument about prescriptivism vs. descriptivism. The girl and her friends responded by jumping all over the guy, calling him names ("trash," "fedora," "neckbeard"), accusing him of making arguments that he didn't actually make (they said, "You can't point to the dictionary definition because words evolve," which was funny because he was arguing for descriptivism, but none of them seemed to understand that), and telling him that he doesn't know what he's talking about and isn't allowed to discuss this topic because he's white. Then she blocked him. All of this despite the fact that he was being perfectly rational and civil throughout the entire discussion, even when he was being insulted.

That seemed to sum up what I've seen of the modern social justice movement pretty well. If someone disagrees with you, yell at them and insult them, then block them so you don't have to hear what they have to say anymore.

It's frustrating because I agree with a lot of their causes. Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, these things are all awful. But I don't want to get involved in any of it, because if I ever have a dissenting opinion, they'll probably just throw the fact that I'm a straight white male in my face and tell me that my opinion doesn't count.

On the opposite spectrum, I lost a friend I've known since high school because they had no problem with ScarJo playing Motoko in GITS. A friend of his, who I know, said that only people on tumblr care about this issue. I posited that he must not have actually have much of many racial minority friends because it as an issue (white washing Hollywood roles) that has existed for as long as Hollywood's entire run. Many minorities have been vocal about it and deducing the issue to "Tumblr" is moronic. This was an observation I made through our many hang outs. Usually everyone there was white except two or three people.

Suddenly, I'm the bad girl for making this observation and everything devolved into hilarious tirades about double standards and how I have a vendetta because they're white, when they were the ones making large claims for people of color. "YOU THINK YOU KNOW ME?!"

Some social justice groups act in immature and dumb ways but let's not act like other people aren't acting like similarly. You can see a similar viewpoint in this thread: people who are so prone to making an enemy out of "SJWS" that they don't think their own poop stinks and act very much the same way as the group they're railing against.

The problem you really have is with the Internet as a means of communication in general, not social justice.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
Are you asking for people to act like robots? That's what it reads like--you're asking for completely rational discussion to take place 24/7, and that's disturbing in and of itself. People are allowed to get frustrated and this isn't a debate club where people are scored. Besides, have you seen how people react to being shut down on an objective level? It's not much different. Typically you get to claim a moral superiority while making someone feel stupid. Congrats.

You're taking an objective fact (by way of the Hitler example) and not misinformation that could have spawned from several different places--racial bias being one of them.

As for it's functional purpose--understanding where someone's perspective comes from is important, and if you do seek to educate someone, the approach changes wildly depending on the assumptions you can make.

People's experiences vary wildly depending on their race, and human interaction relies on assumptions to be made. To continue using my example:

If I heard a black person where I grew up say, "Fuck the police!" my assumption is that they grew up in a community that taught them to be suspcious of the cops. If I heard a white person where I grew up say, "Fuck the police!" my assumption is that they were an idiot and did something stupid.

Was I right 100% of the time? No! Absolutely not. But you can't learn everyone's story, and understanding that certain bias exists as a function of race is vital to understanding how to dismantle those biases.



There's also this. A personal attack would have been telling someone they can't understand because they aren't black, that of course they think the way they do because they're white.

Im asking for people to abide by basic tenants of good, honest argumentation. Not be robots 24/7.

If you are having an argument of fact, objective critique is going to rule the day. Side musings and speculation about a persons race and character traits are not conducive to determining those matters of fact and the manner it was done poisons the well. Pointing that out is far different from saying a person has no right to vent personal frustrations or start a new conversation about how race may make understanding a community more difficult.
 
Im asking for people to abide by basic tenants of good, honest argumentation. Not be robots 24/7.

If you are having an argument of fact, objective critique is going to rule the day. Side musings and speculation about a persons race and character traits are not conducive to determining those matters of fact and the manner it was done poisons the well. Pointing that out is far different from saying a person has no right to vent personal frustrations or start a new conversation about how race may make understanding a community more difficult.
It's speaking about what you know. I'm not a parent, I'd look stupid trying to tell parents how to parent. Likewise, I'm not going to tell black people where they're not doing enough if I don't actually know the community and culture well enough to know if they are.
 

gtj1092

Member
^^^^^Exactly got into an argument about paternity leave and my co worker argued that people were having kids to get extra vacation days and I immediately assumed he didn't have any kids. He didn't. Raising kids is the farthest thing from a vacation that you could get. I don't know how anyone can claim your race and has no bearing on your thoughts.


Im asking for people to abide by basic tenants of good, honest argumentation. Not be robots 24/7.

If you are having an argument of fact, objective critique is going to rule the day. Side musings and speculation about a persons race and character traits are not conducive to determining those matters of fact and the manner it was done poisons the well. Pointing that out is far different from saying a person has no right to vent personal frustrations or start a new conversation about how race may make understanding a community more difficult.



Be careful you're starting to come across like those pesky "SJW" who want to control speech.

Funny you didn't go after the guy who made the sweeping claim about black people caring more about braids than aids.
 
Im asking for people to abide by basic tenants of good, honest argumentation. Not be robots 24/7.

If you are having an argument of fact, objective critique is going to rule the day. Side musings and speculation about a persons race and character traits are not conducive to determining those matters of fact and the manner it was done poisons the well. Pointing that out is far different from saying a person has no right to vent personal frustrations or start a new conversation about how race may make understanding a community more difficult.

rofl
 
This sentiment really sticks with me, especially in regards to a piece I was reading a week or so ago: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/

The idea being that if you're a liberal... you shouldn't necessarily get some sort of moral hall pass for being a dick. You think gay sex is fine and dandy? Okay, then being tolerant or supportive of gay people and gay rights shouldn't be an issue for you, and by your own standards you shouldn't get a pat on the back for it.

With these sorts of social justice concerns there's a moral component and a pragmatic component to bringing about change, and I have to lean towards the pragmatic path every time. I know of no one who has ever changed their opinion by being yelled at. I know plenty of people who feel self-satisfied doing the yelling (I certainly know the "thrill" of the sort of verbal takedown or cutting words and feeling superior afterwards, even if it didn't help anything.) It's worth examining whether we're actually interested in change or just making ourselves feel good (and this is something that I think every person has to grapple with outside of this realm as well.)
Wow, thank you. An actually productive post for me. I read it and learned some new things. Huh. Thanks for the link.
 

Infinite

Member
It absolutely is not. You ask the average person what what supremacy means, and they're going to say something about the KKK, skinhead groups, and the overt belief that the white race is superior and other races are inferior. What you won't get are people talking about how society has a subconscious bias towards things of white european heritage.

To note:


contrasted with how it describes academic usage of the term:


This is similar to how the "prejudice+power" definition of racism is used in some circles, whereas the common dictionary definition doesn't have power as a necessary element, so you have people saying stuff like "black people can't be racist", using the word in the former sense, and people familiar with the word in the latter sense understandably object. Nobody's wrong, they're just using different meanings of the term.
Nothing is wrong with what you said but I do take issue with people for example dismissing the "academic" usage of such terms in favor of the "laymen" usage so they can continue ignoring systematic oppression and their complicity in it. The "everyone is a little racist" sentiment creeps from such a mindset and holding on to such a sentiment will help no one and maintains the status quo.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
It's speaking about what you know. I'm not a parent, I'd look stupid trying to tell parents how to parent. Likewise, I'm not going to tell black people where they're not doing enough if I don't actually know the community and culture well enough to know if they are.
If a parent is advocating beating their child, and you say "corporal punishment is no good, beating your children sounds like a more extreme form of that bad" if they say "are you a parent?" Do you back off?

I think that it's just always a bad idea to go down that road in honest discussions.
 
If a parent is advocating beating their child, and you say "corporal punishment is no good, beating your children sounds like a more extreme form of that bad" if they say "are you a parent?" Do you back off?

I think that it's just always a bad idea to go down that road in honest discussions.

Honest discussion?

The dude said black people care more about box braid hair appropriation than HIV risk. Your argument is a false equivalence.

"Honest discussion" sounds more like, taking the discussion in a way you agree with. I'm not your donkey.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
Nothing is wrong with what you said but I do take issue with people for example dismissing the "academic" usage of such terms in favor of the "laymen" usage so they can continue ignoring systematic oppression and their complicity in it. The "everyone is a little racist" sentiment creeps from such a mindset and holding on to such a sentiment will help no one and maintains the status quo.

And nothing is wrong with what you said, but "PoC can't be racist because racism requires prejudice + power" is probably never going to be a hot seller to the general public, so that may not be the best semantic hill to die on.
 
And nothing is wrong with what you said, but "PoC can't be racist because racism requires prejudice + power" is probably never going to be a hot seller to the general public, so that may not be the best semantic hill to die on.

The definition of racism in the every day sense is also different from the academic definition, that many minorities know it.

The definition of racism, to white people, is largely an on and off switch of racist/not racist. It's such a binary methodology and doesn't operate on a realistic scale.

In order to convince them, you must help them change their definition of racism. I think all white people are racist to a degree, because they operate within a system that upholds their values, beauty, culture, ethics, education, power, and influence as superior. The undoing of this argumentation is that people assume that racist (remember it's an on and off switch) means it means you're a bad person. Growing up in a culture and world that enforces this is going to tell you that you're owed things. Even the most well meaning white ally can fuck up due to sheer socialization.

It isn't as hard to swallow when these same people realize that every other race - not just white people - follow under this same system. So black people, latino's, asian's also have similar views through shared culture exchange. It will take group effort to unravel these systems and values that have been instilled on our world.
 

Enzom21

Member
If a parent is advocating beating their child, and you say "corporal punishment is no good, beating your children sounds like a more extreme form of that bad" if they say "are you a parent?" Do you back off?

I think that it's just always a bad idea to go down that road in honest discussions.

What "honest discussion was Valhelm trying to have here?
Based on Valhelm's post, it is clear Valhelm doesn't know shit about what black people discuss or care about.
 

Brakke

Banned
Honest discussion?

The dude said black people care more about box braid hair appropriation than HIV risk. Your argument is a false equivalence.

"Honest discussion" sounds more like, taking the discussion in a way you agree with. I'm not your donkey.

Are you still talking about Valhelm? He didn't say "black people" care more he said "activists" care more: "activists tend to care a lot less about this than about white women who wear box braids". And that in a sentence where he was talking about "we"; I don't know if Valhelm is black but if not, he probably wasn't talking about "activists" as being "black people" there. And that was his last post in this thread, several hours ago. I'm pretty sure you've put more words into representing Valhelm's position than Valhelm has at this point, so I'm not sure how close we are to understanding at this point.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
It's speaking about what you know. I'm not a parent, I'd look stupid trying to tell parents how to parent. Likewise, I'm not going to tell black people where they're not doing enough if I don't actually know the community and culture well enough to know if they are.

Again, my problem is that entire argument is born out of assumption. In response to a dialogue discussing matters of fact.

In a vacuum I agree with the logic that it is unwise to tell people you know nothing about how they should act or try and tell them what they are doing when you don't know. Because that is like textbook ignorance.

But all of those assumptions have not been established but assumed and then the assumption is used in part to answer matters of fact. Thats where the issue arises for me.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
The definition of racism in the every day sense is also different from the academic definition, that many minorities know it.

The definition of racism, to white people, is largely an on and off switch of racist/not racist. It's such a binary methodology and doesn't operate on a realistic scale.

In order to convince them, you must help them change their definition of racism. I think all white people are racist to a degree, because they operate within a system that upholds their values, beauty, culture, ethics, education, power, and influence as superior. The undoing of this argumentation is that people assume that racist (remember it's an on and off switch) means it means you're a bad person. Growing up in a culture and world that enforces this is going to tell you that you're owed things. Even the most well meaning white ally can fuck up due to sheer socialization.

It isn't as hard to swallow when these same people realize that every other race - not just white people - follow under this same system. So black people, latino's, asian's also have similar views through shared culture exchange. It will take group effort to unravel these systems and values that have been instilled on our world.

That didn't really address what I was saying, though. We have a generally used term for what you're describing, and that is systematic racism and/or institutionalized racism. That's a better way of broaching the subject than straight out telling apathetic white people that a black person acting prejudiced toward them "isn't actually racism."
 
Are you still talking about Valhelm? He didn't say "black people" care more he said "activists" care more: "activists tend to care a lot less about this than about white women who wear box braids". And that in a sentence where he was talking about "we"; I don't know if Valhelm is black but if not, he probably wasn't talking about "activists" as being "black people" there. And that was his last post in this thread, several hours ago. I'm pretty sure you've put more words into representing Valhelm's position than Valhelm has at this point, so I'm not sure how close we are to understanding at this point.

And he'd still be wrong. It's hard to separate "activists" from "people" in this sense. Again, this shows ignorance.

We have Black HIV Awareness Day.

http://nationalblackaidsday.org/

People have marched. I've never seen anyone march for box braids.

HIVAwarenessSecondLine.jpg


So issue is so entwined in the culture that "activists" are just every day people.

Have you ever marched for HIV/AIDS victims? I did for my cousin and I'm not an HIV/AIDS activist.

Again, sounds like someone from the outside looking in.
 
That didn't really address what I was saying, though. We have a generally used term for what you're describing, and that is systematic racism and/or institutionalized racism. That's a better way of broaching the subject than straight out telling apathetic white people that a black person acting prejudiced toward them "isn't actually racism."

I agree. I'm just showing you a potential alternative.

I'm basically saying that white peoples idea of racism is so fucking vapid and one-dimensional that their view needs to be challenged in a better manner.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Let me focus on this for a second.

Are you black?

Because when I was a teenager, HIV was a huge deal in my community. We were taught proper HIV prevention. We talked about HIV prevention in church. I was a part of multiple black focused organizations that talked about safe sex.

To say that HIV isn't talked about, especially among women, within the black community sounds pretty errornous. It makes it sound like you're not black.

It reminds me of racists and dumb black people like Kendrick Lamar who ask things like "How do Black Lives Matter when you people keep killing yourselves?" when most violence is intraracial. Furthermore, Black Americans have been decrying gang violence as far back as the fucking 80's, from shows like Family Matters, to rap records, and workshops on gang prevention. So to see someone, who lives so fucking far on the outside, talk about how it's not an issue and how we "don't talk about" really reminds me of what you're doing right now.

Essentially, you have no idea how our, or the Native American community functions and you're positing your own authority as the right one. You have no idea if Native American organizations aren't making sexual abuse an issue, because you're likely not Native American, aren't a part of Native American organizations, don't spend time with Native American's, and if you do, probably don't know them on a deep enough level for them to talk to you about it.

Everything you're telling me smells of white supremacy.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I apologize. In that post, and all my earlier posts, I was not discussing any kind of community outreach or internal social work to help assuage these issues. When I used the word "activist", I meant people like me: concerned citizens who have the privileged of experiencing issues of social inequity through the safety of a textbook or computer screen. I was not referring to people who actually deal with these issues daily. However, ignoring the people within these communities who arguably do the most important activism is a massive oversight, and for this I am sorry.

What I was referring to were the actions of the activist left, especially in academia or on college campuses. Your post has made me realize, though, that focusing only on external observation is both short-sighted and ignorant.

I was not meaning to tell African American or other marginalized communities how to behave, but instead to critique the academic left, which is largely non-black but makes similar observations to the ones you responded to. In trying to criticize the priorities of other outside activists, I made the same mistake of ignoring the communities which are actually affected. I had not even considered that more vital issues were already being addressed by people within those communities. For this, I'm sorry. I'll do what I can to avoid speaking over marginalized peoples in the future.

Holy shit, thanks Cindi for pointing this out.

What the fuck, dude? You honestly don't think there aren't tons and tons of black people working on this? And have been, for decades?

"We" in that post referred to people like myself -- bloggers, protesters, politicians, or other activists who seek to raise awareness about social inequity potentially from the outside. I was not referring to peoples directly affected by these issues. However, this attitude obviously comes from a place of ignorance and privilege. But only people like me, who have the luxury of not being as likely to be affected by mass rape or higher HIV rates, I missed the forest for the trees. I wasn't intending to discount the work of black community activists, and realize now that my post was very poorly expressed.

Are you still talking about Valhelm? He didn't say "black people" care more he said "activists" care more: "activists tend to care a lot less about this than about white women who wear box braids". And that in a sentence where he was talking about "we"; I don't know if Valhelm is black but if not, he probably wasn't talking about "activists" as being "black people" there. And that was his last post in this thread, several hours ago. I'm pretty sure you've put more words into representing Valhelm's position than Valhelm has at this point, so I'm not sure how close we are to understanding at this point.

When I said "activst", I was referring to mostly white groups who discuss and promote these issues. I should have been more clear in my language, but I also recognize that only discussing external activism is ignorant and racist. Obviously people within black communities have been discussing HIV for decades.

But I'm admittedly very out of touch with these communities. Because I've very rarely seen issues like HIV discussed on Tumblr or on NeoGaf, I made a generalizing assumption about activists that ignored the very important labor of internal activists who are actually affected by these issues.
 
You think someone would do that, just go on the internet and yell lies?

Not a lie. Happened at Ramapo a few years back. The guy was eventually escorted out. It was really weird.

Not taking a stance with that story by the way. I think even the most hardcore "SJW"s wouldn't support something like that. Hell, the guy might have just been some edgelord, I don't know.
 
Not a lie. Happened at Ramapo a few years back. The guy was eventually escorted out. It was really weird.

Not taking a stance with that story by the way. I think even the most hardcore "SJW"s wouldn't support something like that.

I mean, you don't see the irony in being a bystander in an experience where a dude yelled "triggered" (whom, without context, could just have easily been some piece of shit objectivist looking to rain on an actual discussion) and then using said experience to refute someone's notion that's asking for actual input, only to completely change the tone of the discussion?
 
I mean, you don't see the irony in being a bystander in an experience where a dude yelled "triggered" (whom, without context, could just have easily been some piece of shit objectivist looking to rain on an actual discussion) and then using said experience to refute someone's notion that's asking for actual input, only to completely change the tone of the discussion?

It was just an anecdote, not a major refutation. Admittedly, I somehow didn't register the "done ironically" part of the original post. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, I don't know what was going through the guy's head.
 

Cipherr

Member
Did you read the post? It's a 'kids these days' and then the proclamation he is becoming less liberal due to them. I don't participate in any 'social justice movements'. I engage things if they arise about me, but I don't seek them out. I'm not part of any sort of club or group. So I'm uncertain who the 'we' in your post is referring to.

He did not say anything about becoming less liberal. Perhaps you should read the post again. And age isn't an issue here, the OP is about a young person. Jesus, way to barge in the thread and become example #1 man...
 
Vanilla Ice isn't a great example of culture appropriation to me. To me, a great example of culture appropriation is probably African American music at large. Bringing up Vanilla Ice, but not how jazz, blues, rock, even reggae, were co-opted into mainstream society with no appreciation nor gratitude towards those musical sources while at the same time existing in a segregated America where blacks couldn't share the same water fountain, but you can steal our culture and music is not, in any way, "trivial."

The west has a fascination with what we call, Blue Eyed Soul, that is, soul made by whites. But rarely is this same appreciation shown towards actual black soul. After a life time, it becomes easy to read between the lines. When you devalue another's culture, you're also devaluing their personhood. Remember this the next time you see an Ed Shereen.

Hold on a minute. No one "stole" these from black people. What happened was, by and large, the younger generations of black youth, for various reasons, lost interest in these genres as they went towards other musical genres, almost exclusively hip-hop and R&B. And it's mostly the same way now. You say it like there was some mass conspiracy to kick black people out of these genres when that wasn't the case at all.

I think you also simplify the issue too much. Lots of people in the West appreciate black soul music, why would you say otherwise? Unless by "West" you mean white Westerners, but given how much of the population makeup they account for in Western countries, I'm sure you could find a decent sample of them who don't have an appreciation for black soul or other ethnic minority music. That doesn't change the fact that there aren't (usually more) who do appreciate it, however. Or are you under the assumption that every single white Western must like black soul music in order to redeem the value of that group and the musical genre itself? Because not only is that unrealistic, it's almost an insulting way to look at it.

If people feel as though there is cultural appropriation going on w/ hiphop today, keep in mind hiphop is a very commercialized industry and genre. There is a heart and soul to the genre removed from the money but b/c it's removed from the money, most people don't know about it. But this is the same for every musical genre. And what aspects of hiphop that are being culturally appropriated aren't even the decent ones. So if those appropriating it want to pat themselves on the back for inferior work, let them. Those who truly understand the music will know where the quality is. However, knowing how much money there is in the hiphop industry, and given the population makeup of Western countries, of course you're going to get an influx of white artists into the industry. That doesn't mean all of them are in it only for the money, however.

I mean, if we're to a point where you have a white and black rapper with the same garbage lyrics and content, but the white rapper happens to get the award, and people say the black rapper should've gotten the award, you're still awarding garbage. It's just that the vessel of delivery of that garbage has a different skin tone. And in the case if the black rapper really was the better one, is it really that important to get the validation from the people who gave the award to the white rapper in order to reassure your feelings of the black rapper being better? Isn't your own acknowledgement enough?
 
But I'm admittedly very out of touch with these communities. Because I've very rarely seen issues like HIV discussed on Tumblr or on NeoGaf, I made a generalizing assumption about activists that ignored the very important labor of internal activists who are actually affected by these issues.

Perhaps you should go out and see what activists and those on the "academic left" are actually do instead of making wide ranging statements based on what you see people post about on the Internet, especially when many on the Internet have a vested interested in knocking down the credibility of said activists. What's reality doesn't actually match what's big on the Internet - for example, see the Democratic primary.
 
I hate this "SJW" shit so much. I don't see why this site seems to be on their side so often (or at least it was a few years ago).

Because they're on the side of the good, and most of their viewpoints are derived from research and academically reasoned opinion?

A bunch of them just communicate on the internet like neurotic immature obnoxious people using others as social media trampolines because....they are. It doesn't mean the things they're advocating for aren't right.
 
And what within the article constitutes as him arguing in bad faith? That one is arguing in bad faith should be determined from the argument and not the past of the person. Sadly I see this type of approach applied by people quite often when someone criticizes activities of liberals. He disagrees with us? He must have an ulterior motive! Let's dig through his past until we can find something to validate our assumption that he's being disingenuous!

Even if he is arguing in bad faith, a valid argument is valid whether or not it's being presented by someone being disingenuous. If someone is mistaken yet still making a good point then it's worth considering the point.
Why does it matter if the person is arguing in good faith or not if the point they're making is valid?
I admit it's not a good behavior. Much as my brain tries to refute it, there is "us vs them" at work in me.
 

legend166

Member
There's a view I've seen quite prevalent on the internet lately with regards to freedom on speech that ties into this - it's the idea that if it's not specifically the government arresting you or curtailing your freedom of speech, then it's not censorship, and therefore they have every right to stop you from speaking, or make you feel whatever consequences they deem necessary for your speech.

And it's a authoritarian streak that runs across both sides of the political spectrum - you can see it in the right in the form of GamerGate, who basically harrass people constantly who express speech they don't agree with and end up affecting their livelihoods (i.e. that woman who got sacked from Nintendo). And it's a common tool used by the left, especially here in Australia, where the government is constantly pressured to reject visas for those who hold 'conservative' positions (I'm not talking about rejecting visas for actual convicted criminals which I'm okay with, but last year they pushed to block a speaker who holds conservative views on gender roles in marriage blocked from entering the country to speak).

It's the ultimate conclusion of the 'you have freedom of speech, but not freedom from the consequences of that speech' catch cry. And I agree with that thought - everyone should be able to respond to speech in a way they deem fit (without breaking laws, obviously). But taken to its extreme, it effectively destroys freedom of speech. In the world of social media where it's easier than ever for a small group of highly motivated individuals (much like described in the original article) to impact the lives of someone whose speech they disagree with, we'll create a society where freedom of speech is purely an illusion, because people will be too scared to express an unpopular view (heck, in cases it might not even be unpopular with the majority, just a loud, organised minority) because of the actual and/or perceived consequences.

People need to realise that freedom of speech isn't just a vertical concept, i.e. between citizen and state. It's something that needs to be encouraged and protected horizontally, between citizens. Otherwise you'll find the government never even needs to bother with censorship because its citizens will happily do it for them.
 

BigDes

Member
There's a view I've seen quite prevalent on the internet lately with regards to freedom on speech that ties into this - it's the idea that if it's not specifically the government arresting you or curtailing your freedom of speech, then it's not censorship, and therefore they have every right to stop you from speaking, or make you feel whatever consequences they deem necessary for your speech.

And it's a authoritarian streak that runs across both sides of the political spectrum - you can see it in the right in the form of GamerGate, who basically harrass people constantly who express speech they don't agree with and end up affecting their livelihoods (i.e. that woman who got sacked from Nintendo). And it's a common tool used by the left, especially here in Australia, where the government is constantly pressured to reject visas for those who hold 'conservative' positions (I'm not talking about rejecting visas for actual convicted criminals which I'm okay with, but last year they pushed to block a speaker who holds conservative views on gender roles in marriage blocked from entering the country to speak).

It's the ultimate conclusion of the 'you have freedom of speech, but not freedom from the consequences of that speech' catch cry. And I agree with that thought - everyone should be able to respond to speech in a way they deem fit (without breaking laws, obviously). But taken to its extreme, it effectively destroys freedom of speech. In the world of social media where it's easier than ever for a small group of highly motivated individuals (much like described in the original article) to impact the lives of someone whose speech they disagree with, we'll create a society where freedom of speech is purely an illusion, because people will be too scared to express an unpopular view (heck, in cases it might not even be unpopular with the majority, just a loud, organised minority) because of the actual and/or perceived consequences.

People need to realise that freedom of speech isn't just a vertical concept, i.e. between citizen and state. It's something that needs to be encouraged and protected horizontally, between citizens. Otherwise you'll find the government never even needs to bother with censorship because its citizens will happily do it for them.
I have a suspicion that the speaker blocked from Australia was that rooosh or wooosh or shitforbrains or whatever the fuck his name is. If that is the case its not because he is espousing traditional gender roles. It was because he is a self adnitted rapist who advocates making rape legal
 
It's always important to remember that regardless of the circumstsnces anytime you're being hateful towards another human being or feel that you are superior to another human being, you have a good chance that you're being an asshole or you're wrong.

Not enough people know humility and empathy these days. It's all moral superiority and self-serving emotions.

I constantly try to remember this myself if I ever get worked up about things.
 

legend166

Member
I have a suspicion that the speaker blocked from Australia was that rooosh or wooosh or shitforbrains or whatever the fuck his name is. If that is the case its not because he is espousing traditional gender roles. It was because he is a self adnitted rapist who advocates making rape legal

Nah, not talking about that guy. It was this one: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-...sial-pastor-coming-to-australian-hill/6525774

For what it's worth, I have a real dislike for Mark Driscoll.
 

Infinite

Member
Hold on a minute. No one "stole" these from black people. What happened was, by and large, the younger generations of black youth, for various reasons, lost interest in these genres as they went towards other musical genres, almost exclusively hip-hop and R&B. And it's mostly the same way now. You say it like there was some mass conspiracy to kick black people out of these genres when that wasn't the case at all.

I think you also simplify the issue too much. Lots of people in the West appreciate black soul music, why would you say otherwise? Unless by "West" you mean white Westerners, but given how much of the population makeup they account for in Western countries, I'm sure you could find a decent sample of them who don't have an appreciation for black soul or other ethnic minority music. That doesn't change the fact that there aren't (usually more) who do appreciate it, however. Or are you under the assumption that every single white Western must like black soul music in order to redeem the value of that group and the musical genre itself? Because not only is that unrealistic, it's almost an insulting way to look at it.

If people feel as though there is cultural appropriation going on w/ hiphop today, keep in mind hiphop is a very commercialized industry and genre. There is a heart and soul to the genre removed from the money but b/c it's removed from the money, most people don't know about it. But this is the same for every musical genre. And what aspects of hiphop that are being culturally appropriated aren't even the decent ones. So if those appropriating it want to pat themselves on the back for inferior work, let them. Those who truly understand the music will know where the quality is. However, knowing how much money there is in the hiphop industry, and given the population makeup of Western countries, of course you're going to get an influx of white artists into the industry. That doesn't mean all of them are in it only for the money, however.

I mean, if we're to a point where you have a white and black rapper with the same garbage lyrics and content, but the white rapper happens to get the award, and people say the black rapper should've gotten the award, you're still awarding garbage. It's just that the vessel of delivery of that garbage has a different skin tone. And in the case if the black rapper really was the better one, is it really that important to get the validation from the people who gave the award to the white rapper in order to reassure your feelings of the black rapper being better? Isn't your own acknowledgement enough?
You made that up.
 

Mumei

Member
I always have trouble with topics like this. I often have issues with the rhetorical tactics with the campus left - particularly the emphasis on "offense" or "emotional harm" as the primary basis for claims. It's counterproductive because everyone can claim personal grievances, even people who don't actually have a rational basis for them - just look at polls where white people believe that anti-white animus is more prevalent than anti-black animus, or Christians who interpret gay rights as a form of religious oppression. There is a difference between legitimate and illegitimate claims, and (at least going by videos I've seen) the ability to articulate why their claims are legitimate seems to be an ability in short supply.

I also find it deeply frustrating to see students who are unable to have discussions about the practical limits of free speech in classroom settings, whose only tactic appears to more ever more plaintive expressions of personal woe. I also find the importation of community norms that work in an insular environment (say, a social justice blog catering towards a community of like-minded people) that simply don't work in the larger world to be deeply frustrating - and I'm guessing that the practice of ensconcing oneself in those situations is what makes some activists fail to see the problems inherent in their model.

I don't agree with all of the arguments that Mahad makes, but it is actually possible to have a discussion about these things. Even if philosophic disagreements would remain, perhaps a compromise on practices could be achieved that recognizes the tensions of different imperatives in, say, the classroom. That his interlocutors in his peer group seem unable or unwilling to without retreating to ad hominem or circular logic is something that I find troublesome.

On the other hand, there's this. Hoff Sommers has for decades belonged to rightist and anti-feminist organizations such as the AEI and IWF, written multiple books on the supposed evils of feminism, chosen to associate herself with an anti-feminist harassment campaign in more recent years, and done so marketing herself as an "equity" feminist, arguing that all of those other feminists desire something other than equity. There is a reason that she is every anti-feminists favorite feminist: she reflexively opposes feminism.

So, perhaps there are deeper philosophical differences between Mahad and the campus activists than presented in the article.
 

Replicant

Member
I've seen some of what he pointed out flaring up on some famous sites and even here. As a double minority (race and sexuality), it makes me uncomfortable that some of the discussions can be downright rude, insulting and exclusionary towards other group, especially the supposed defacto group.

I never see the point of putting down those who don't deserve to be put down just because they happen to share the same race or gender that have hurt me before. I don't see the point of excluding them as allies just because they were born with the so-called "privilege".

Sometimes the discussion gets so bogged down with ensuring that a particular opinion is seen as the right one that other valid opinions that don't support the main one gets tossed aside under "uninformed" basket.

It's especially uncomfortable when people start calling these people based on their race/sexuality (ie. Ugh, HetCis, etc). I mean, if we don't like being called names why are we doing it to others?
 
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