Support NeoGAF

[KyanMehwulfe]

I can't even remember what I liked about XII, but I do remember what I disliked:
- Tedious places with savepoints placed far from each other. The Great Crystal, Sandseas, etc.. Traversal was pretty slow too.
- Tedious farming. I was always short on gold. I read that chain farming Owl/Mirror Knight thingies was the fastest way, but they didn't spawn enough for me.
- Zodiac Spear. Did they fix the stupid prerequisites for this?
- Vaan and his fake abs, "I'm captain Basche!", etc.. Penelo being completely worthless as a character in the story.
- The crappy dialog sound quality, in an effort to fit the game into a single DVD.
- Not having a gambit for steals. I think the best one was HP > 100%, then you just tag the enemy after you steal the item.

I got the LE pre-ordered and I hope I'll like it more this time. I've disliked open world games until I played TW3. Sleep Mode will defeinitely help, and I wish XII got a Vita release.

Yeah Steal - > HP = 100% worked pretty well as long as it wasn't on your controlling character. Better yet if you had someone that also had an attack -> HP = 100% gambit, too. I think for random battles I usually gave my spellcasters a Cast Spell if 100% Gambit because I wanted the flavour of constant spell use (just for the aesthetic) but not to spam magic and drain MP (at least pre-Quickening MP upgrades).

BTW, TZA fix a few of those things. It fixes Vaan's abs, game has auto-save now, and they change the Zodiac Spear and also it's no longer the best weapon in the game... there are arguably better weapons like the Scorpion Tail F with more practical requirements. That said, there are a few new ultimate items that are literally in invisible chests and worse than the Zodiac Spear (they don't require Licenses tho so they could be consider 'cheat' weapons) . And technically, we don't know all the new changes in TZA from IZJS so these technically could change, too. Dunno.

 

[Death Penalty]

what's next someone going to make a thread about RE4 being polarising lol

No offense, but if you don't think XII was polarizing you probably weren't paying much attention when it released. That's just standard to Final Fantasy, though.

I mean, I personally didn't care for XII much. The battle system is no fun and the story failed to garner any sympathy for the protagonists from me. This is less of a deal-breaker to me, but I really don't like the hard-leaning medieval Final Fantasy aesthetic as much as the medieval fantasy/modern and/or sci-fi mixes. IX is one of my favorites though so I'm not sure how much that factored in.

To be honest, although I doubt I'll warm up to the dreary offline MMO combat I am looking forward to trying to give XII a fairer shake. At the time that XII came out, I was a turn-based FF die-hard and I wasn't pleased with the direction the battle system took as a result. I've since changed my tune and a lot of the IZJS tweaks (especially to summoning!) sound awesome. After returning to a lot of games such as Dark Souls that I didn't initially like but ended up loving, I'm wondering if I'm the sort of person now that will love XII as well.

Here's hoping! Modern FF hasn't been doing it for me since the PS3.

 

[redcrayon]

I have to agree that the combat system is not for everyone, and can be a while to get used to.. but when it clicks, its amazing.

Loved the world building and the hunts (so many rare species). I agree with the general "hate" on Vann and penelo... zero relevance to the story and plot. The rest of the cast is really good however.



edit: who is making the OT for the zodiac age?

I really got into the monster hunt guild too. Forecasting and the weather cycle, having some beasts only appear in the rain etc, that was fun.

 

[Mr.Deadshot]

It's not my favorite FF, but it's the FF I want to replay the most. Can't wait for the remaster. It has the best gameplay of all FFs. The story is too political though.

 

[Laughing Banana]

It's not my favorite FF, but it's the FF I want to replay the most. Can't wait for the remaster. It has the best gameplay of all FFs. The story is too political though.

If anything it's not political enough. It's so disappointing that, just like Final Fantasy Tactics, in the end it abandons the political storylines in favor of magical beings and explosions.

 

[Ushojax]

Definitely the best FF. The plot is the standard convoluted drivel but everything else was fantastic. The art, the music, the world design, the battle system, the characters, it was clear that a huge amount of passion went into building the game. It's the last single-player FF that didn't feel compromised by SE's incompetence, it obviously had a lot of problems in development but unlike FFXIII and FFXV they didn't just shit something out after wasting years on prototypes.

 

[Turin]

1. Vaan and Penelo were faceless characters, to the point you ask "why do they exist?" As it's known, Balthier was the lead but due to corporate reasons and management meddling that the main character should be this young looking guy, Vaan was suddenly shoved in. No idea why Penelo was shoved in too but she serves almost no purpose in the game. I don't even recall much about the villain nor the judges. I remember them suddenly fizzling out except for one-two judges?

It was actually Basch from what I've read. I've wondered if his characterization was at all affected after that.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

I might be Ultros's alternative form because his opinions line up with mine.

XII < XIII < XV

Still excited for Zodiac Age though and maybe my opinion might change after it.

 

[thetrin]

It was actually Basch from what I've read. I've wonder if his characterization was at all affected after that.

I believe it was Basch, and it makes sense. The early parts of the story revolve around Basch. He's the most important character for quite a while. I just put him in the lead of my party once I got him and pretended Vaan didn't exist.

 

[DanielJr82]

I don't hate XII, I just hate Balthier.

Wow, I have never heard anybody say they hate Balthier. I wonder what else you hate.

 

[ULTROS!]

I might be Ultros's alternative form because his opinions line up with mine.

XII < XIII < XV

Still excited for Zodiac Age though and maybe my opinion might change after it.

Heh, my man.

But truth is, if we compare these three games to I-X, then it'll be a different story.

I do hope TZA changes my opinion about it, though I have a feeling it will overtake VIII and V. It's definitely hard to top my solid 6 though.

 

[mieumieu]

12 is my third favorite FF (after 5 and 9), but I still think every FF except XV has its merits.

Spoiler

My secret favorite is 4, Ive played it many times, but I always said to people it is one of my least favorite. Haha

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Mixed reception? FFXII is critically acclaimed and sold a ton of copies.I also think that the issues it had were (understandably) exacerbated for many as it was arguably the biggest step forward the series had ever taken since VII.

Still, it's up there with VII and IX for me.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

Mixed reception? FFXII is critically acclaimed and sold a ton of copies.I also think that the issues it had were (understandably) exacerbated for many as it was arguably the biggest step forward the series had ever taken since VII.

Still, it's up there with VII and IX for me.

It is the second worst selling FF after FFVII sold shit ton of copies and put the franchise on the spotlight.

 

[ULTROS!]

Mixed reception? FFXII is critically acclaimed and sold a ton of copies.I also think that the issues it had were (understandably) exacerbated for many as it was arguably the biggest step forward the series had ever taken since VII.

Still, it's up there with VII and IX for me.

I think it's more how the fans discuss about it rather than the review scores. Kinda like GTAIV and inversely, NieR (PS3).

Game sold a lot but I believe it sold on par as IX, aka not the highest of FFs post VII.

 

[Robot Pants]

I hated it both times I tried it

 

[duckroll]

It is the second worst selling FF after FFVII sold shit ton of copies and put the franchise on the spotlight.

I need to remember to use this argument every time I see people mention how beloved FFIX is.

 

[tilomite!]

I loved it when it came out, I've never got a chance to revisit it.

 

[Fardeen]

I didn't like the story. It lacked a good story. The gambit system I didn't like much and the open world was too huge and bland unnecessarily. Battle system I still don't like it. The only good thing I loved is how good the voice acting was. Especially fran

 

[Spukc]

It is probably one of the best FFs ever created just behind FFVI.

Makes "modern" FFs looks like trash.

Well said !

 

[Laughing Banana]

Mixed reception? FFXII is critically acclaimed and sold a ton of copies.I also think that the issues it had were (understandably) exacerbated for many as it was arguably the biggest step forward the series had ever taken since VII.

Still, it's up there with VII and IX for me.

What big step forward, if you don't mind me asking?

Open world? The "political" story? The battle system?

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

It is the second worst selling FF after FFVII sold shit ton of copies and put the franchise on the spotlight.

Nothing you said refutes the fact that it's critically acclaimed and sold a ton of copies.

What big step forward, if you don't mind me asking?

The writing, gambit system, world and the content within the world were a good basis for how SE could have iterated on the franchise going forward in my opinion.

 

[ULTROS!]

I need to remember to use this argument every time I see people mention how beloved FFIX is.

I guess no one cared for chibi.

Although really, why didn't FFIX sell as well? Due to the PS2?

 

[duckroll]

I guess no one cared for chibi.

Although really, why didn't FFIX sell as well? Due to the PS2?

Who cares. According to DarkLordMalik, that makes it the wooooooooooooorst! YES!

 

[Nozem]

I can't decide what I love more, the Gambit system or Fran's voice.

 

[kromeo]

I guess no one cared for chibi.

Although really, why didn't FFIX sell as well? Due to the PS2?

It's pretty much the ultimate gaf darling but at the time there were definitely people put off by the game's art style

It's my third favorite in the series but I've still never warmed to Zidane's horrible design

 

[Monocle]

The combat system takes some getting used to, but it's insanely good once you get into it. You can do so many cool creative things with gambits. Or you can be dumb and boring and automate all of your most basic actions.

The music is just phenomenal. Consistently great.

The story is OK, nothing special, and the characters range from mediocre (Vaan) to some of the best in the entire series (Balthier).

The setting is average. Nothing exceptionally memorable, like FFX's Spira or FF7's Gaia.

From what I've seen, the most divisive things in the game are Vaan and the combat system. Complaints about Vaan are totally valid. He's super bland. Complaints about the combat system strike me as mostly misguided, although I'll admit it's an acquired taste. A little creativity will take you far. (Or: copy better players' gambits.)

 

[Zekes!]

I was always fine with Vaan, honestly. In fact, he won me over when he talked shit to the leader of Fran's village. Straight dropped the mic on her

 

[Turin]

Monocle, you should've stuck with Vaab.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Nothing you said refutes the fact that it's critically acclaimed and sold a ton of copies.



The writing, gambit system, world and the content within the world were a good basis for how SE could have iterated on the franchise going forward in my opinion.

Well it's too bad then that the next going forward from FFXII that Square took resulted in FFXIII, hahah.

Although I am one of those weirdos who actually enjoyed FFXIII.

 

[ULTROS!]

It's pretty much the ultimate gaf darling but at the time there were definitely people put off by the game's art style

It's my third favorite in the series but I've still never warmed to Zidane's horrible design

Here's a question we can raise: Did FFIX and FFXII sell "lower than the expected standards of FF" due to the release timing or was it mostly because of the aesthetics and look... Or something else?

 

[Ushojax]

The leads of all the 3D games are boring, Tidus, Vaan, Lightning and Noctis are all incredibly bland. You have to remember that these games are designed for Japanese high-schoolers, so the main character is always going to be that way.

 

[duckroll]

The writing, gambit system, world and the content within the world were a good basis for how SE could have iterated on the franchise going forward in my opinion.

Aside from the gambit system, a lot of that did happen. It just didn't happen until after XIV 1.0 crashed and burned, and ARR started. It's not quite as smooth as an actual Matsuno plot, but everything in XIV these days is clearly very strongly inspired by the sort of worldview FFT/VS/FFXII had.

 

[Isotropy]

I need to remember to use this argument every time I see people mention how beloved FFIX is.

It's a stupid argument.

IX and XII both released after the next generation of consoles had released. FF die-hards will buy them, but why would the average gamer give a rat's ass when the PS2 and 360/Wii were already out?

 

[Laughing Banana]

Why they did not implement the gambit system for FFXV is beyond me. It seems like such a perfect fit.

 

[Death Penalty]

Why they wouldn't implement the gambit system for FFXV is beyond me. It seems like such a perfect fit.

I'm guessing they straight up ran out of time. There are features from Episode Duscae, the demo for XV, that did not make it into the final product. The cutting room floor must have been nearly flooded with half-baked features looking at what actually made it in.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I'm guessing they straight up ran out of time. There are features from Episode Duscae, the demo for XV, that did not make it into the final product. The cutting room floor must have been nearly flooded with half-baked features looking at what actually made it in.

It seems like a great choice for FFXV's battle system. I hated how the constant need to babysit team members with potions and items completely disrupt the flow of that game's combat, and a gambit system would do much to alleviate that.

In fact, instead of giving us updates on story beats, I really think it would be much more beneficial for SE to give us an update that gives FFXV a gambit system of some sort.

 

[duckroll]

Why they did not implement the gambit system for FFXV is beyond me. It seems like such a perfect fit.

They couldn't even ship the game with playable party members. Think about that for a moment.

 

[Yohane]

I remember nothing about FFXII except I didn't like the story.

Still excited for TZA!!!

 

[RedSwirl]

I like to compare it to Metal Gear Solid V -- it's Final Fantasy for people who don't like Final Fantasy. It basically got rid of everything I couldn't stand about JRPGs at the time.

Some people loved FFXII mainly for two reasons:

1) It completely got rid of combat transitions and turn-based combat. The balance of the original version was disappointing, but making everything real-time by itself was a huge deal for a lot of people. During the PS3/360 era RPG developers figured out the mainstream western console audience doesn't like turn-based combat or battle transitions at all, and now everything that isn't niche is real-time. FFXII got that reaction a couple years early. Persona is probably the biggest console turn-based RPG right now. And I don't know why people keep calling any real-time-with-pause RPG "MMO-like." XII is the only mainline Final Fantasy where I didn't eventually get bored of the combat system, and the pacing and immediacy was a big reason for that.

2) It did away with most of the JRPG story tropes a lot of people had gotten tired of. Despite the disappointing development of FFXII's story and characters, the game's setting and overall atmosphere felt somewhat unexpected and like a breath of fresh air for people tired of games chock full of shounen tropes.

XII was probably the least "JRPG" mainline Final Fantasy until XV came out, and it might actually still be. Like MGSV, many saw it as a much needed streamlining and modernization of the game, despite its imperfect execution.

 

[Wolf Akela]

They couldn't even ship the game with playable party members. Think about that for a moment.

They didn't even ship with things they already showed, much less never shown.

 

[Death Penalty]

It seems like a great choice for FFXV's battle system. I hated how the constant need to babysit team members with potions and items completely disrupt the flow of that game's combat, and a gambit system would do much to alleviate that.

In fact, instead of giving us updates on story beats, I really think it would be much more beneficial for SE to give us an update that gives FFXV a gambit system of some sort.

I agree with you, I think FFXV (and honestly, any party-based real-time combat game) could benefit greatly from the gambit system. XV actually has a lot of ideas that I think could be great given more time in the oven. Wait Mode, as strange as it is in its half-baked state, is something I think could revolutionize turn-based combat in a 3D space if a game was developed around it.

I guess that's a bit off-topic though. On the subject of gambits and XV, Tabata actually directly answered questions concerning a system like gambits to govern your party members' behavior but it was never implemented.

 

[Fdkn]

the original version was trash that did not respect your time as a player, making it the one single time that I dropped a FF game before finishing it at least once.

They fixed that problem with IZJS (now Zodiac Age) so it's a good game now.

 

[RedSwirl]

And the gambit system is pretty much the answer for how to control multiple party members in real time in a console game. That and wait mode.

It's no wonder the console versions of Dragon Age basically ripped off that system. I've always found it interesting how Dragon Age -- supposedly a throwback to classic CRPGs, looked to JRPGs when figuring out the interface for the console versions. You ever notice how the weapon and ability UI in those games is pretty much PSO?

 

[Isotropy]

the original version was trash that did not respect your time as a player, making it the one single time that I dropped a FF game before finishing it at least once.

They fixed that problem with IZJS (now Zodiac Age) so it's a good game now.

If you think the original was trash, I'm astonished that you think IZJS/TZA changes enough to not only "fix" that, but make it good.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Well it's too bad then that the next going forward from FFXII that Square took resulted in FFXIII, hahah.

Although I am one of those weirdos who actually enjoyed FFXIII.

For all of it's faults, I enjoyed XIII as well. The battle system was strong enough, especially end-game, that I ended up liking it quite a bit. Most other things about the game were quite forgettable but I definitely don't regret playing it .

Aside from the gambit system, a lot of that did happen. It just didn't happen until after XIV 1.0 crashed and burned, and ARR started. It's not quite as smooth as an actual Matsuno plot, but everything in XIV these days is clearly very strongly inspired by the sort of worldview FFT/VS/FFXII had.

Definitely seems that way, which is why I should really play XIV:ARR properly. Tried it for about a month when ARR first dropped on PS4 (didn't own a competent PC back then) but never went all in on it. Could be a while until XVI, so I'll definitely have to jump in when I've got more time on my hands.

 

[Laughing Banana]

1) It completely got rid of combat transitions and turn-based combat. The balance of the original version was disappointing, but making everything real-time by itself was a huge deal for a lot of people. During the PS3/360 era RPG developers figured out the mainstream western console audience doesn't like turn-based combat or battle transitions at all, and now everything that isn't niche is real-time. FFXII got that reaction a couple years early. Persona is probably the biggest console turn-based RPG right now. And I don't know why people keep calling any real-time-with-pause RPG "MMO-like." XII is the only mainline Final Fantasy where I didn't eventually get bored of the combat system, and the pacing and immediacy was a big reason for that..

You said that the game get rid of the turn-based combat, but really the combat system in FFXII is not "real-time" at all, it's just basically an ATB battle system not unlike FFVII, VIII, and IX. For example, IIRC, you can't really evade an attack by moving away--if the game calculates that the attack will hit you, then it will hit you regardless even if you are moving away and the attacker swung on an empty space. Also, in the original they implemented some sort of a queue system, where the game prioritized one animation over another (I believe because PS2 couldn't handle all the animation being displayed at the same time--I don't know if the remaster "fixes" this); for example, if a Boss prepares an attack and Ashe prepares an attack, then the game, instead of having them both attacking at the same time, will make Ashe stuck first in a pre-attack animation before the boss finishes its attack animation.

That is why in the original game it would be much more beneficial to rely on physical attacks than magical attacks, because magical attacks are always queued behind due to how flashy their animations are.

They couldn't even ship the game with playable party members. Think about that for a moment.

I agree with you, I think FFXV (and honestly, any party-based real-time combat game) could benefit greatly from the gambit system. XV actually has a lot of ideas that I think could be great given more time in the oven. Wait Mode, as strange as it is in its half-baked state, is something I think could revolutionize turn-based combat in a 3D space if a game was developed around it.

I guess that's a bit off-topic though. On the subject of gambits and XV, Tabata actually directly answered questions concerning a system like gambits to govern your party members' behavior but it was never implemented.

Oh man, so many wasted potential with that. A proper gambit system in a true real-time battle + fantastic animation work of FFXV + Shimomura's music = godly battle system.

 

[Foxxsoxx]

I thought it was okay when it came out. I was a lot younger then so I can't say how much of that was me just being a teenager. Curious to give it a go when it's on sale. I always hated Vaan and Pen but everyone else was great. Really loved the designs of the judges, and the environments were pretty good. I never got used to the gambit system but then again I was pretty young at the time.

 

[Laughing Banana]

People hated Vaan and Penelo but I personally appreciate the levity they brought to the party. Heck, I think the only smile I flashed during the ending was when Penelo jumped into Vaan's back and these two are playing with each other--kinda cute, lol.

 

[ULTROS!]

I like to compare it to Metal Gear Solid V -- it's Final Fantasy for people who don't like Final Fantasy. It basically got rid of everything I couldn't stand about JRPGs at the time.

I think that title belongs to FFXV. We've got a lot of people who never played (or barely) played the FF games diving into FFXV

Spoiler

and yes, several do like it

. Hence "Final Fantasy for old and new comers" does ring a bit true (but the Former... maybe or maybe not, it's mixed bag).

I'd say FFXII is targeted to the more niche(?) crowd, those who like political intrigue and realism, and those who loved the world and feel of Tactics.