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[Zaptruder]

At the edge of human knowledge, everything becomes a little hazy.

But Wormdundee is right I think; progressively changing a person's brain from biological to non-biological (I'd say silicon, but we'd probably be using a different substrate by then) will allow a person to pretty much stay as themselves.

Changing the last piece of biological hardware over to non biological shouldn't alter our sense of selves too dramatically... even if, if you take a snap shot from start to finish, the whole process would've dramatically altered an individual's perception of self, if only because that person now exists on a non-biological and has thus overcome biological limits including mortality and expandability/upgradability.

While discussing the singularity on a metaphysical level is all fine and well... what's lacking is discussion about what a post singularity world will be like. Some say that we can't fathom at what it'll be like, because it'll be beyond our intellectual capacity.

Personally, I feel as though we can make some very accurate guesses at 'end game', if only because the computation needed to assess and create the goals are trivial relative to the task of achieving those goals. Yet it's an important step (the creating the goals part) to achieving anything in the first place.


While I'd launch into a long winded description of the universe... I can do one better and post a link to a pretty good documentary about it... although I'm sure many of you have seen it already:

BBC's Visions of the Future presented by Michio Kaku
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW1TNkQfNng&feature=related

Very good watch.

Essentially the gist is, we'll master both physical universe, the universe of the mind and overcome our biological limitations on an internal level (like we've done on an external level thus far).

As a gaming and tech enthusiast... I think the most compelling point to be made is a reality of virtual reality. Ideally, it'd be the matrix quality simulation (without arbitrary deaths, and oppressive computer A.I. overlords), in which people can move in and out of freely.

But more to the point, is that it will allow us to enjoy a world in which we have not just mastered the physical, but surpassed it.
To put it another way, living in a world where we're immortal non-biological entities, in shiny solar collecting towers and what not, might be all well and good... but I'd prefer to live on my own floating castle and peddle to my neighbour's castle on my flying wing bike... or teleport there if I don't feel like it.

The other compelling point about virtual reality that is rarely touched on by anyone much less the popular media that like to treat it as 'weird science', is that we are already starting to see increasingly and iteratively better virtual worlds. At some point, it'll cross the threshold between enthusiasts and become a killer app (not unlike how Avatar has made 3D the killer movie app).
As adoption of virtual reality and as its quality increases, it'll actually start to contribute largely and positively to global resource usage, producing a large positive, but largely unexpected benefit for policy makers rushing to make gradual changes to the way we use and deal with energy.


As a result, the most intriguing ideas about the technological singularity are the stories of how we'll get there, and how the changes will interact with the world we live in; on a physical level, and on a political and economic level.
Unfortunately, the current crop of futurists don't really touch on this kind of stuff to the detail which would satisfy me (or at least none of what I've seen).

 

[Deleted member 1235]

would be awesome if you could back up your conciousness. then people could pirate you.

 

[LCGeek]

A machine is a mathematical grid and so is a human. The merging of the two consists of understanding the basic mathematical principles and the patterns of matter and the universe. The next evolution in electronic engineering will come about after we get rid of the 2D binary numeral system and embrace the true hologram based nature of binary. This can only be accomplished once we integrate polarity into the system, because right now there no such thing as "negative", we bypass that by looking at the Most Significant Bit and if there is a carry. That is just plain redundant. I will be speaking with some of my professors to brainstorm how such system could be implemented without the whole engineering establishment just crumbling before our eyes.

I mentioned this in a topic I did once and got it for it. Also the system needs to go while some things can be emulated but a lot of new changes would be a paradigm shift for just about everything.

 

[Slightly Live]

would be awesome if you could back up your conciousness. then people could pirate you.

Or you could pirate yourself. A few thousand times. Need someone to play Halo with at your skill level? Create a few dozen clones. Lonely, clone a copy of yourself to talk to. Can't figure out a solution, create a hundred clones to help work on various areas of the problem!

 

[Des0lar]

Who wants to live forever?

 

[Vaporak]

I'm not sure what your point is. You're saying you can do what Deep Blue does, but a lot more slowly. Well, okay. I'm sure a slightly dim human could do what Einstein did, if you gave him a thousand years to do it. Achieving a goal more quickly is part of what greater intelligence allows.

Using "better calculation tools" counts as extending your intelligence. Hell, just using a pen and paper to write down each possible chess move would count as extending your intelligence, since I doubt you could mentally visualize the exponentially growing tree of possibilities.

To do what Deep Blue does, you need to have a cognitive architecture equivalent to Deep Blue's; it's that simple.

It seems we have very different definitions of intelligence, an issue that will have to be resolved before anyone can make something more intelligent than a human. I don't consider calculation speed as having anything to do with intelligence, and that dove tails nicely into your erroneous example. I already KNOW what I have to do to play better than deep blue, it just takes me longer to execute it than it takes deep blue. A random person DOES NOT know how to achieve everything Einstein did; and so merely given more time he/she won't be able to move any closer to their goal. This is because intelligent thought isn't just searching through a predefined data structure as quickly as possible, which is all deep blue does. Until we know what it is that the human brain does to get it's results, saying some other algorithm does "it" better is largely a vacuous statement.

 

[mrklaw]

This all sounds pretty cool, but because it's a pretty huge unknown, the possibility of living in a reality like that alone is pretty spooky, without even considering the possibility that the machines could go all Skynet on us.

Will it matter if the machines go all skynet on us? By then we'll *be* the machines.

 

[mrklaw]

the accelerating change I disagree with. Of course we've accelerated development compared to 5000 years ago, due to fundamental discoveries that led to the industrial age etc. And now we have the silicon age but I don't see that being sustained - let alone accelerate.

The limit is us.

Firstly we have the hurdle of our brains. We have to invent new stuff and then make it. So techonology by itself might be able to accelerate, but its being held back by humans. Perhaps if the intelligence explosion happens then this might be possible but I don't see it.

Secondly, we have society. We're still massively reliant on exploiting cheaper countries to manufacture things for us. The further you go towards the singularity, the more government will get in the way, and societal inertia (change is bad). You will have to fundamentally change ideologies to fully embrace the singularity - you basically need to move to a Star Trek like model, which I don't see happening anytime soon.

 

[mrklaw]

Or you could pirate yourself. A few thousand times. Need someone to play Halo with at your skill level? Create a few dozen clones. Lonely, clone a copy of yourself to talk to. Can't figure out a solution, create a hundred clones to help work on various areas of the problem!

But if you could move your conciousness into a non-biological form, and assuming that means we have the capability to simulate reality into that 'brain computer', then we don't need physical forms anymore. Never mind Wall-e style lazing about in chairs. We will only exist as bits in a giant digital computer. We'll have ascended, effectively - becoming conciousness only.

Whether or not we choose to continue to live a 'physical' life - as in a matrix-like simulation of our previous understanding of life or not will be an interesting question. What is it to be human? Once we have our conciousness 'uploaded', will we eventually evolve into not needing those ties to the old physical realm, and simply exist as thought? What happens to relationships?


Taking it way further, if we don't exist in the real world, that lays the foundation for other species to develop on the planet. Perhaps even intelligent life. Perhaps they'll evolve and archeologists of the future will discover our computers. what will they make of us? will they even understand that there are people inside?

 

[Slightly Live]

Secondly, we have society. We're still massively reliant on exploiting cheaper countries to manufacture things for us. The further you go towards the singularity, the more government will get in the way, and societal inertia (change is bad). You will have to fundamentally change ideologies to fully embrace the singularity - you basically need to move to a Star Trek like model, which I don't see happening anytime soon.

There will always be poor people to exploit.

Also, think of the internet as early version of the singularity. The internet started as a government project, slowly embraced by a minority of academics, then enthusiasts, then entered the mainstream and slowly entered everyday life. The government has broad control but no overall personal control on people's freedoms. Some say government control is an illusion, it certainly cannot stop all the illegal activities going on every second.

If or when the singularity comes about, no amount of old folks or government tsars will be able to stop it.

 

[Slightly Live]

But if you could move your conciousness into a non-biological form, and assuming that means we have the capability to simulate reality into that 'brain computer', then we don't need physical forms anymore. Never mind Wall-e style lazing about in chairs. We will only exist as bits in a giant digital computer. We'll have ascended, effectively - becoming conciousness only.

Whether or not we choose to continue to live a 'physical' life - as in a matrix-like simulation of our previous understanding of life or not will be an interesting question. What is it to be human? Once we have our conciousness 'uploaded', will we eventually evolve into not needing those ties to the old physical realm, and simply exist as thought? What happens to relationships?


Taking it way further, if we don't exist in the real world, that lays the foundation for other species to develop on the planet. Perhaps even intelligent life. Perhaps they'll evolve and archeologists of the future will discover our computers. what will they make of us? will they even understand that there are people inside?

I wasn't even talking about biological forms! =P If I can back up myself digitally, then I can copy myself digitally an infinite amount of times, regardless if I exist biologically or digitally.

Therefore, I am God. I can create life. But if I create a digital copy of myself, do I have the right to terminate it? Does it share the same rights as I do? Does the digital clone have a claim on my identity and decisions? Will someone enforce restrictions on how many digital copies I can make? Will I be punished if I terminate a copy of myself? Will I be guilty of genocide if I accidentally delete a few million copies of myself? If I only exist digitally and I create a copy of myself, will people recognise me or my clone as my true self? Can a copy frame me for a digital crime after secretly deleting itself after committing one?

 

[Lost Fragment]

Well obviously the Galactic AC will impose individual bandwidth/resource limitations and consciousness DRM of some description.

 

[blame space]

So is this like The Matrix? I like The Matrix.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

Well obviously the Galactic AC will impose individual bandwidth/resource limitations and consciousness DRM of some description.

I know you're kidding in part but there is a degree of truth here. Technology does not progress free of economic bars.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

They're already experimenting with simulating organic brains on computer hardware. When they perfect quantum computing then they'll probably be able to simulate a human brain. God knows what comes after that.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

They're already experimenting with simulating organic brains on computer hardware. When they perfect quantum computing then they'll probably be able to simulate a human brain. God knows what comes after that.

I'm assuming the computer will then proceed to request a handjob and a beer. Not necessarily in that order.

 

[mrklaw]

So is this like The Matrix? I like The Matrix.

I was thinking of posting in that 'fanboy interpretations of movies', that the matrix wasn't created by machines, it was created by humans, and the ones breaking out (Neo, Morpheus etc) are terrorists, and are hunted by the machines which are the humans' defense mechanism to protect them while they're in the matrix.

Actually, I think I will

 

[Ikael]

Singularity advocates tends to mistake thinking faster with thinking better, so to speak. We barely understand how our brain works, and without that we cannot improve it, save from use the help of computers to speed up cognitive processes. Singularity will be an event more related with neuroscience, psycology and even antropology rather than microprocessors.

 

[Nexus Zero]

Yes it will definitely happen, probably a little later than RK's predictions though. He's well known to be a huge optimist but still because of the exponential nature of technological development means the date of singularity itself is probably only off by about 10 years at the most. Personally I reckon it'll happen around 2055 should nothing catastrophic happen to humanity (and shit, we survived the 20th century after all). I base this on the fact that although Ray is off on the specifics of some of his predictions (ie, who the fuck actually wants sensors in all their clothes? How is that going to take off? One day you'll wear your new shirt and have tracking and then the next you'll be wearing ol' reliable and you won't? Nike+ is a more realistic model - sensor and clothing will be separate), when he is correct he is generally just a couple years ahead of the curve.

Also Ray's predictions of immortality through digital backups are discussed pretty extensively in his book and he does mention pretty clearly that he doesn't consider this real immortality. I share his views that linearity of consciousness (ie a life) is based purely on the persistence of a pattern of neurons (or brain bits!) and that the pattern may change over time (in fact it must if we are to be conscious) and that the cells making this pattern may change over time (in a few months none of the cells currently in your head will still be there) but that this doesn't matter because the changes are gradual. So, as he actually posits, to achieve effective 'immortality' (so to speak: a disruption in the patter will kill you ie from an explosion but to the extent that you could last forever) we will need to replace individual cells with artificial replacements over a period of time. This will maintain both the pattern and the continuity.

 

[MrHicks]

Who wants to live forever?

 

[Shrike_Priest]

Singularity advocates tends to mistake thinking faster with thinking better, so to speak. We barely understand how our brain works, and without that we cannot improve it, save from use the help of computers to speed up cognitive processes. Singularity will be an event more related with neuroscience, psycology and even antropology rather than microprocessors.

The thing is, neuroscience and microprocessors are already best buds. We won't make any leaps in "understanding consciousness" without the help of more advanced computers. More complex simulations, more raw crunch power will eventually be what lead to understanding how the brain works.

For instance, someone talked about the Blue Brain (http://singularityhub.com/2009/04/3...-like-the-real-thing-the-blue-brain-project/), which is one approach of building a brain from the ground up virtually. There's been some MRI-studies where they've taught a program to interpret whatever word the person is seeing at the moment (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2939892820080530). I also remember a story a while ago about a computer somehow interpreting signals from the optic nerve and giving some kind of blurry, but recognisable output of words (fuzzy on the details, might be off a bit). Anyway, we're in the infancy of understanding perception, but I think it will be a revolutionary rather than a gradual process. Once we have the capacity to make a complete model of a brain in a virtual setting, we're going to learn a lot, real fast.

What I do want to address is the concept of "faster doesn't equal more intelligent". Provided that said intelligence has the ability to learn and adapt, a simple increase in processing time will inherently lead to an increase in intelligence. Just like a child becomes more intelligent as it experiences, learns, so could a superhuman intelligence. Which means that if it could more quickly process stimuly and speed up the learning process (not to mention having other ways of accessing stimuli) it's logical to assume that it would also be more intelligent. And the more it experiences and learns, the faster it would figure out how to learn more efficiently, regardless of how well humans understand the concept.

It would be an interesting moral issue, though, if we could create sentience but that sentience would be retarded (in the true sense of the word). Would it be just to create life that is aware of its own existence but unable to interpret and deal with its situation? What if the singularity is depressed?

 

[Locke562]

Kurzweil wants to live forever. A technological singularity coming so soon is just wishful thinking on his part.

 

[Zaptruder]

Kurzweil wants to live forever. A technological singularity coming so soon is just wishful thinking on his part.

But the fundamental basis for what he's saying can't be so easily denied.

Computing power continues to grow exponentially, and with it, terrifyingly fantastic advancements will come.

At this time, we're making advancements faster than ever, not just because of raw computing power, but also because it serves as an enabler of communications. Allows information to be more readily accessed, more readily communicated. Information is where it needs to be, in precisely the right hands faster, quicker, and more efficiently than it has ever been.

And these types of advantages along with growing computer power continue to grow.

More specifically, it's helping people in the life sciences fields get the stuff as they need it; the computing revolution that has been happening for the last 20-40 years continues to create a positive feedback loop with itself, and in the last 10 years has begun to seriously benefit the guys looking into extending life.

In 20-30 years, we'll be simulating an atomically correct model of a human being at an acceptable speed/cost; even that model alone without further advancement would yield significant enhancements to our current working knowledge... but 10-20 years from that point, and it'll be trivial to create such a simulation; access to this valuable simulation becomes easy for anyone that needs it, and as a society, we essentially brute force our way out of the 'hard questions' of our biology, if we haven't already grasped it on a theoretical level.

The rate limiting factor in my mind are the interactions of advancing technology with the nature of production, the market and economics.